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Matt_Ward

Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #200 on: January 01, 2010, 02:36:18 PM »
Jud:

I said I might change a few -- possibly add one or two and possibly demote one or two.

I really like Pac Dunes but there are a few holes that are so-so for me -- FI is just a great place to play and provides a total elasticity to all levels of players. Frankly, the private layout gets little real attention because of its relative remoteness and its penchant for privacy.

Dale Jackson

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #201 on: January 01, 2010, 02:39:28 PM »
1) Saint Andrew's old Course
2) Trump International Canouan Island
3) St. Georges G&CC
4) Jasper Park Lodge
5) Victoria Golf G&CC
5) Tobiano
6) Banff Springs
7) Caledonia
8) Devils Paintbrush
9) Bear Mountain Golf Resort
10) Mississauga G&CC

Mostly all Canadian Golf courses...couldnt think of 25....

Stuart welcome.  I assume you must be Canadian - if so, where in this vast land?  Tobiano #5, Bear Mountain #9?  We need to get you to some more courses
I've seen an architecture, something new, that has been in my mind for years and I am glad to see a man with A.V. Macan's ability to bring it out. - Gene Sarazen

Tom_Doak

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #202 on: January 01, 2010, 03:01:35 PM »
Matt:

Thanks for posting your list with comments ... it is a nice break from the hypnotic effect of the other lists, which all start to blend together after a while. 

And thanks also to Steve Lang for compiling the master list.

I have avoided making a list myself because I'm already on the record about nearly all of these courses; the only new information would be to try and figure out which of my own courses I would be bold enough to include in a top 25.  I have witnessed other architects rank several of their own courses among the top 50 in the world, and they have never managed to look good doing it, so I won't try.  I am very happy though to see so many of our courses show up on one person's list or another's.

jkinney

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #203 on: January 01, 2010, 03:47:52 PM »
My list goes from east to west, to wit...

TOC
County Down
Shinnecock
NGLA
Augusta
Oakmont
Sand Hills
Stone Eagle
LACC North
Cypress Point

It's only 10, but to me they're all 10's.

Michael Taylor

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #204 on: January 01, 2010, 08:13:30 PM »
Here we go:

1: National Old - Absolutely the craziest greens I've ever seen. Could never tire of playing here.
2: Kingston Heath - Very solid course with a great finish. Awesome bunkering.
3: New South Wales - Some amazing holes mixed in with some poor ones.
4: Royal Queensland - Options, fun, variety, elegance. Just a wonderful, wonderful course.
5: Royal Melbourne West - Love the green complexes and especially the 6th hole. One of my favorites anywhere.
6: Royal Sydney - Good solid course. Nothing special.
7: Elanora CC - I have a soft spot for the place. Love some holes and the condition is impeccable.
8: Magenta Shores - Just a nice place to play golf. It's one of the toughest courses I've played.
9: Royal Canberra - Like number 7. Not a 'great' course but a very enjoyable place to play nevertheless.
10: The Lakes - Unusual start with 6 par 4's in a row. I love some holes here but like NSW, I believe it has too many poor ones/over the top.
11: Alice Springs GC - Desert course in the center of Australia. Absolutely loved it.
12: Newcastle GC - Nice Apperly course with a very solid F9.
13: Pennant Hills GC - Nice members course.
14: Avondale GC - 10th hole is one of my favorites anywhere. However it must be the most humid place in Sydney.
15: Monash GC - Good finish but would just be an average course if it weren't for the greens.


I could go up to 25 but the quality of courses would be minimal, so I'll stop at 15.  :)

Update: Played Royal Queensland today and it amazed me.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 08:56:15 AM by Michael Taylor »

Tom_Doak

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #205 on: January 01, 2010, 09:18:51 PM »
Michael:

Welcome, and prepare to meet Brian Phillips.  ;)

Tony Weiler

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #206 on: January 01, 2010, 10:17:31 PM »
Heck with it Tom D., post your Top 25.  We promise not to tell any of your clients, and we'll take it with a grain of salt if you put your own courses too high.   ;D

Wade Whitehead

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #207 on: January 01, 2010, 10:50:06 PM »
The original post asks for my "personal" top 25.  That list includes at least ten courses that have far less architectural merit than others I've played, but which hold some other meaning to me.

A couple are nine holers (one of which no longer exists) on which I learned to play the game.

One is a place I play with my father- and brothers-in-law each year, and which I know I'll always remember fondly.  It's got a grass airstrip between two par fours.

I love a great golf course; however, more than one dog track holds a special place in my "personal" list.

WW
« Last Edit: January 01, 2010, 10:52:01 PM by wwhitehead »

Mike Erdmann

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #208 on: January 01, 2010, 11:14:39 PM »
In rough semblance of order:

1.   Pine Valley
2.   Royal County Down
3.   St. Andrews Old
4.   Royal Dornoch
5.   Pacific Dunes
6.   Royal Portrush
7.   Oakland Hills
8.   Plainfield
9.   Muirfield
10.   Sebonack
11.   Carnoustie
12.   North Berwick
13.   Pinehurst #2
14.   Cruden Bay
15.   Machrihanish
16.   Paraparaumu Beach
17.   Yale
18.   Inverness
19.   Bandon Trails
20.   Lehigh
21.   Mountain Lake
22.   TPC Sawgrass
23.   Interlachen
24.   Kingsbarns
25.   Bandon Dunes

A few I couldn't find room for on my list:  Saucon Valley - Old, Royal Aberdeen, Minikahda, Beverly, Skokie, Congressional, Chambers Bay, Desert Forest, Brora, World Woods - Pine Barrens, Eugene, Cog Hill #4, Columbia, Pine Needles, Crosswater, St. Andrews - New

Tim Bert

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #209 on: January 01, 2010, 11:23:53 PM »
Like many others here, I think of courses in tiers as opposed to absolute ranks.  Unlike some others, I'm not going to use equal tiers of five.  I'm grouping my favorite 25 courses in clusters of courses that I consider to be of similar quality.  By the way, my top 25 includes 26 since I can't quite distinguish a "worst" in the last tier.

Tier 1:
Cypress Point Club - Although I find it hard for anyone to pass judgment based on one play, CPC stands out to me as the course that surpasses all others I've played.

Tier 2:
Pacific Dunes - I've played this one more than any other on my list and it gets better with each play.  Looking forward to May/June 2010!
Ballyneal - The greens and surrounds take a great site and a great course to another level.
Sand Hills - Everything that it is hyped up to be and more.  A must play for any serious student of modern golf course architecture.
Kingsley Club - Should be no surprise to anyone that has read my comments on this course.  Not the popular opinion here or elsewhere, but I remain convinced that DeVries improved upon his original inspiration.

Tier 3:
Pebble Beach - I think most of the magazines have this over-rated, but it is still a wonderful golf course.
Pasatiempo - Fun, Fun, Fun!
Yale Golf Course - After the first time around the course, I thought "What the hell was that?!?!?"  After a few more plays, I can't get enough of it.
Bandon Dunes - Most on this site will agree that this one doesn't belong in this company, but I really like the course quite a bit.
Crystal Downs - This is a world class golf course no doubt, but I don't think it carries as much weight for me as others perhaps because I was still star struck with Kingsley when I played it.
Pinehurst #2 - Wish I had played it when everything was still fairway.

Tier 4:
MPCC Shore - The best firm and fast show going on the peninsula in the two rounds I've enjoyed there.
Bandon Trails - The middle stretch just doesn't do it for me like the start and the finish
The Honors Course - For some reason Pete Dye courses tend not to blow me away.  This is his best effort that I've played.
Ekwanok CC - Hard not to give credit for the surroundings when you stand on the first tee and take in the amphitheater effect here.  The course stands on its own even without the beautiful setting.
Banff Springs - Might qualify for this tier on the strength of the five par 3s alone!
Holston Hills - Based on the the way the courses were maintained when I played them, this was as enjoyable as Pinehurst #2, even if holes #8 and #9 were a bit too easy.
Long Shadow - Perhaps the firmest and fastest course I've played.  Even if it was drought driven, it was a load of fun.  I could have just stood on the 17th tee and hit shots all day.
MPCC Dunes - Bookend MPCCs.  If I played these two courses every day, I'd probably have a different favorite course and hole each day.

Tier 5:
Belvedere CC - Thank you Mike DeVries for recommending this gem!!
Wild Horse - What a splendid course this town has at its disposal.
Whistling Straits (Straits) - My opinion of this course has diminished as the time since I played it grows, but I can't put my finger on the reason.  It's probably time to get back and give it a second shot.
Links at Spanish Bay - I had heard enough bad things about this that I avoided it on my first trip to Monterey.  The second time around I played it multiple times, and I enjoyed it much more than I expected based on the reviews.
Spyglass Hill - A terrific golf course that is a wee tad too hard for this lefty's game.
Olympia Fields (North) - Much like Spanish Bay, I went to this course expecting to be under-whelmed and came away pleasantly surprised.  A brief walking tour of the South led me to believe I might enjoy it even more than the North.
Beverly CC - A great mix of holes on a nice piece of property.  I felt like I was playing golf in New England instead of Chicago.


Sean_A

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #210 on: January 02, 2010, 05:03:44 AM »
MY TOP 25 USA ...

In 5 sections of fives ...

I jotted these down very quickly -- may have one or two others to insert and then drop off a few others ...

a work in progress ...

First Five

Shinnecock Hills -- the first among equals for me
Cypress Point -- just pure magic and beauty
Merion / East -- nothing packs as much design punch as this layout
Oakmont -- should be a major host every 7-8 years whether US Open or PGA. Just the supreme parksland layout of first rate
Sand Hills -- surreal setting with golf at its core. nuff said.

Second Five

Pine Valley -- needs to get rid of some trees and the underbrush to move up for me.
Ballyneal -- pure fun, entertainment and never a dull moment -- only measurably so-so element for me was the final two par-4's.
Rock Creek -- simply loved the layout -- only weak hole for me the finale. the best collection of Doak par-4 holes I have ever played
NGLA -- any design student needs to see it -- awesome in all senses of the word for the scope of what it provided. citizen kane golf
Winged Foot / West -- the most intense and discerning course that elicits the least amount of love.

Third Five

Crystal Downs -- the toughest short course one can play.
Prairie Dunes -- when wind is up -- the yardage becomes immaterial -- great greens and the 8th is on my short list for great holes.
Pebble Beach -- when firm and fast and the wind up it's everything and more. still has a few so-so holes that keep it down for me.
Fisher's Island -- hard to beat on a sunny summer afternoon -- the best of the Raynor layouts for me.
Pinehurst #2 -- when firm and fast and with ample fairway widths works for me -- takes more than one play to "get it"

Fourth Five

Black Mesa -- just a superb public facility for those unable to get to the ones listed above it. Superb scenery and range of holes.
The Kingsley Club -- likely should be higher but would need a second visit to confirm my original lovefest for it.
Riviera -- love when the course plays firm -- incredible range of decisions for player to decide upon. 18th is everything they say & more.
The Ocean Course / Kiawah -- often thought of as a unrelenting beast -- the course has such a range of elasticity and even playability
Pacific Dunes -- wonderful setting and the best ending with a par-4, par-3 and par-5 closing.

Fifth Five

Plainfield -- one of the most underrated layouts in the metro area and flies way too low nationally.
Bayonne -- just totally man created and works well even when in tight quarters -- goes beyond shadow creek in such a similar category
Mauna Kea -- great upgrade from Rees Jones and likely the best RTJ course I have played. The 11th is one of the best long par-3 holes
Bethpage / Black -- don't like many of the post changes -- the 18th especially -- but still a top notch design and test.
Red Ledges -- gets little attention but Jack's most striking layout with UT scenery and design elements that are first rate.


p.s. Have notplayed ANGC or Friar's Head which likely would compete for a mention


Matt

Take the plunge and include courses not in USA for the list - if there are any.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2023: Cardigan, St David's City, Panmure, Kinghorn, Harrogate, Hinckley, Robin Hood, Sandiway & Ladybank

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #211 on: January 02, 2010, 07:32:27 AM »

NGLA -- .... citizen kane golf


Wonderful comment ;)
Let's make GCA grate again!

Tom_Doak

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #212 on: January 02, 2010, 11:45:48 AM »
Tim Bert:

Putting Belvedere and Wild Horse together in your rankings is genius ... I have never seen anyone compare the two, but they are blood brothers.  [Having them in the same group as Whistling Straits ... priceless!]

I'll help with your problem of having 26 courses.  Throw out Spanish Bay.  Wasn't that easy?

Tim Bert

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #213 on: January 02, 2010, 01:42:57 PM »
Tom

I figured most observers would throw out Spanish Bay from that list.  I just can't do it. The re problem will be if Old Mac lives up to expectations I might need to toss two out of this list. Which would be your second to go from my list?

Tom_Doak

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #214 on: January 02, 2010, 02:19:00 PM »
I haven't ever played Beverly or Whistling Straits, just walked them.  Based on what I saw, I'd throw out Whistling Straits, but that was before it even opened.  If I had to throw out one I've played, Spyglass.

If Old Macdonald does not bump one of those three off your list, I'll be pissed.

JC Jones

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #215 on: January 02, 2010, 02:30:52 PM »
Tim Bert:

Putting Belvedere and Wild Horse together in your rankings is genius ... I have never seen anyone compare the two, but they are blood brothers.  [Having them in the same group as Whistling Straits ... priceless!]

I'll help with your problem of having 26 courses.  Throw out Spanish Bay.  Wasn't that easy?

Why are Belvedere and Wild Horse blood brothers?  I've only seen one of them (though many, many times).  Is it just because they are public and both Doak 6's?
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Matt_Ward

Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #216 on: January 02, 2010, 02:32:11 PM »
Sean:

Fair enough.

I'll put together such a list with a bit of time to think it through. I don't have any Asian or Aussie / NZ selections but will throw together something by early in the week.

The bulk of such couses will come from UK / Ireland, Canada, the island off North America and Mexico, to name just a few other places.

Sean, be curious to see your USA only listing of the top 25.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #217 on: January 02, 2010, 02:33:21 PM »
Reprise with commentary, listed INPO

Pete Dye Golf Club--A private reserve in West Virginia with perhaps one weak hole, that being a par three on the back side, but I'd have to play it again to confirm/deny.  Par four holes make or break a course for me and this course has an incredible variety of great one, moving right to left and left to right, utilizing slant fairways and true doglegs.

Tobacco Road--A perfect example of how sensory deprivation works.  You overload the visual and the CNS falls apart.  If this describes you, get your distance and trust your swing.  You'll need it on 18 from the tips.

Pinehurst #2--Played it in 1982 as a high school junior at the Jesse Haddock Golf Camp (thanks, Coach!)  Had absolutely no idea WHY it was supposed to be good, but it made me think about nearly every shot, on nearly every level.

Taconic--The first "unknown-great" course I believe I played.  Given the nature of the hills, I first became aware of how the property could influence the golf course.  The motto of the club, (medio tutissimus ibis/safest in the middle) was my first exposure to strategic play, a concept I have abandoned in my forties...How can you not hit the driver?!?!?!

The Orchards--Taconic's cousin.  After hearing about it for years and seeing it on the tube (US Women's Open) I took a chance and got on in 2009.  Not as dynamic a piece of property as Taconic, but Ross built a collection of memorable pasture holes.  If by chance you come to the last triumvirate of holes at +2, know that it is possible to lose 5 or 6 shots to par on those holes, docile as they might appear.

(that's five...I think I can, I think I can)

Bandon Dunes
Bandon Trails
Pacific Trails--These three go together.  Wife asked "where go 40th birthday?" assuming I'd say "monterrey."  Nope.  In contrast to others on this site, I found not a single weak hole among the 54.  The guys I went round with (players and caddies alike) were equally as enthusiastic about the ground game as I.

LeatherStocking--Evidence that Dev Emmett needed more canvases on which to paint.  Targets are slightly masked by bunkering, fairways roll enough to force alterations to flat-surface iron play, and putting flats demand your attention from start to finish (except for 16 and 17, which aren't his.)

Fox Chapel--The only template course I've played to date, coupled with the fastest greens I've ever putted.  One course that I felt was strong enough to defeat me from beginning to end, from the easy holes (Punch Bowl and Short) to the most challenging.  Playing the Biarritz properly (#17) was my saving grace.


(that's ten...I think I can, I think I can)

Whistling Straits Straits
Blackwolf Run River
Blackwolf Run MV--These three also go together, for obvious reasons.  Straits had the reputation and the lakeside holes lived up to it.  The inland holes, while less authentic (irony?), still demanded planning and proper execution.  River is very challenging but has fewer memorable holes that its neighbor.  As I reconsider, it would be one of the first to leave this list.  Meadow Valleys begins in absolutely unremarkable, forgettable fashion, then rises to a finish with some of the best of the 72 holes in Koehler.

Victoria Hills--One of many great surprises of 2009.  Sandhills course north-east of Orlando that offers rumpled fairways, varied green targets and honorable putting challenges.

Crag Burn--RTJ influenced three courses near Buffalo.  Two are originals and one is a re-do.  Crag Burn is a wonderful piece of work on a property with one literal high point.  Its par five holes are all strong, attractive and architecturally sound.  The par threes are varied (with two strong and two fairly weak) and the par fours are diverse and inspired.  Not the heroic course you'd expect from him.

(that's fifteen...running out of gas, running out of gas)

Country Club of Buffalo--Donald Ross meets Merion.  Give a man a quarry and step back.  Excellent one-shotters, very good two-shotters and decent three-shotters.

Lookout Point--A Travis design I played once.  Remarkable piece of land in Ontario that Travis had the good sense to leave unaltered.  Has ascending, descending and traversing hill holes and a number of flatland ones, along with the cutest short par five (and tiniest postage stamp green) I've played.

Cherry Hill (ontario)--A Travis design I know well.  Unremarkable piece of land in Ontario that Travis utilized to the best of his abilities.  Credit Ian Andrew for his recent work.  The course now places more of a premium on driving, allowing the superintendent to utilize thick, unforgiving rough a lot less.

Tullymore--My first and only exposure to Jim Engh.  I'd call it sexy golf, as the splashy bunkering, the use of elevation switches and fairway movement created quite a memory for me.  Fortunately, I had a good ball-striking day.

Southern Pines--There is often a category in high school yearbook polls called "Talks least, says most."  Southern Pines talks least, says most.  PLEASE don't look at the scorecard and hole yardages and think you will go low.  Many drives go straight into hillsides, killing forward momentum.  Those that don't, leave downhill and sidehill approaches that demand precision or bust from the swing.

(that's twenty...I know I can, I know I can)

The Old Course, St. Andrews
The New Course, St. Andrews--Can't separate them.  My first and only exposure to the ground game of Scotland.  The courses giveth and the courses taketh away.  If you are great, they will allow you to be great.  If you are so-so, you will combine greatness with pathos.
 
Kebo Valley--One of those hidden New England treats, a la Myopia, Taconic, Orchards, Eastward Ho!, et al.  Not long, but tricky.  Hit driver too often and you'll have lots of wedge approach shots from rough and bunkers.  Hard to hold elevated, small, firm greens, even with those short clubs.

Arcadia Bluffs--I liked it.  Simply put, I liked it.  It's not a links course, but it has features of a links course.  It demands a few heroic carries, but not so many that you feel burdened and beat down.  I played with a guy who didn't get out-brawned by the course, just out-strategized.  Time and time again we said to him "You don't have to carry it 210...just hit it 130 down there and have a sand wedge in."  The corridors are there; you just have to find them.

Old Town Club--I failed to do two things at Wake Forest:  take a Maya Angelou course and caddie at Old Town.  This course comes back to me in dreams.  First double green I ever saw, only Maxwell course I've been on (although I didn't understand its importance at the time) and relentless if you're not thinking and aiming well.

(that's twenty-five...might caca, I did it.)
Maybe for 2022
~Eden Valley
~Hillview
~Pinehurst (NY)
~Kis 'N Greens
~Pine Meadows
~18 Mile Creek
~Greenwood
~Shawnee
~Leroy
~

Tom_Doak

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #218 on: January 02, 2010, 02:35:44 PM »

Why are Belvedere and Wild Horse blood brothers?  I've only seen one of them (though many, many times).  Is it just because they are public and both Doak 6's?


Zero earthmoving in the fairways and roughs -- check.
Relatively sparse bunkering [less than 50 total] -- check.
Lots of little humpy contours in the greens making short game difficult -- check.

JC Jones

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #219 on: January 02, 2010, 02:38:23 PM »

Why are Belvedere and Wild Horse blood brothers?  I've only seen one of them (though many, many times).  Is it just because they are public and both Doak 6's?


Zero earthmoving in the fairways and roughs -- check.
Relatively sparse bunkering [less than 50 total] -- check.
Lots of little humpy contours in the greens making short game difficult -- check.

Well, I can't wait to play Wild Horse then. 

What is more interesting is that a certain poster on here, whom I respect greatly, thinks Wild Horse is a "must play" and Belvedere is a wasted round.  Of course I vehemently disagree with him on the latter.

Also, the number of bunkers at Belvedere is increasing due to recommendations from Renaissance....and I'm glad this is so.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2010, 02:53:45 PM by JC Jones »
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #220 on: January 02, 2010, 03:14:52 PM »
Tim Bert:

Putting Belvedere and Wild Horse together in your rankings is genius ...

Oh my, Tom - don't encourage the lad.  I fear you just created your first colon boy!

Continued success in the New Year.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

ed_getka

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #221 on: January 02, 2010, 04:59:59 PM »
Tim Bert:

Putting Belvedere and Wild Horse together in your rankings is genius ...

Oh my, Tom - don't encourage the lad.  I fear you just created your first colon boy!

Continued success in the New Year.

Mike

Most definitely the funniest post of the year. ;D
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Tim Bert

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #222 on: January 02, 2010, 05:23:56 PM »

Oh my, Tom - don't encourage the lad.  I fear you just created your first colon boy!

Continued success in the New Year.

Mike

Most definitely the funniest post of the year. ;D

Ed - don't encourage him. Bogey is already like my personal GCA paparazzi.   ;D

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #223 on: January 02, 2010, 05:42:00 PM »
Sorry have to go with Mike on this one C.B. :)
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Sean_A

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #224 on: January 02, 2010, 07:02:55 PM »
Sean:

Fair enough.

I'll put together such a list with a bit of time to think it through. I don't have any Asian or Aussie / NZ selections but will throw together something by early in the week.

The bulk of such couses will come from UK / Ireland, Canada, the island off North America and Mexico, to name just a few other places.

Sean, be curious to see your USA only listing of the top 25.

Matt

I mean a combo list with the best courses you have seen regardless of where they are. 

There isn't much point in me listing 25 USA courses as I haven't seen enough to bother. 

Belvedere is a lovely course and with some TLC it could be a real eye opener.  It is certainly one of the sleepers in Michigan.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2023: Cardigan, St David's City, Panmure, Kinghorn, Harrogate, Hinckley, Robin Hood, Sandiway & Ladybank

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