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Terry Lavin

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #750 on: February 08, 2013, 03:27:06 PM »
1.  Sand Hills
2.  Cypress Point
3.  Pacific Dunes
4.  LACC North
5.  Riviera
6.  Prairie Dunes
7.  Chicago Golf Club
8.  Pebble Beach
9.  Pinehurst #2
10. Old Macdonald
11. Shoreacres
12. Friar's Head
13. Olympic Club
14. Olympia Fields North
15. Butler National
16. TPC Sawgrass
17. Medinah #3
18. Erin Hills
19. Bandon Trails
20. Calusa Pines
21. Cherry Hills
22. Shoal Creek
23. Lost Dunes
24. Bandon Dunes
25. Whistling Straits
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 03:29:15 PM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jason Topp

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #751 on: February 08, 2013, 04:37:06 PM »
Here is my updated list with rankings from 2009 noted.  My critieria is completely subjective - given the choice between the two courses, which would I rather play.

1. (1)   Sand Hills
2. (2)   Royal Melboune West
3. (3)   Dornoch
4. (4)   The Old Course
5.  (5)   Ballybunion
6. (6)   Kingston Heath
7. (7)   Lahinch
8. (8)   Pacific Dunes
9. (*)     Kinloch
10. (*)   Kawana
11. (*)   Dunes at Diamante
12. (10)   Pebble Beach
13. (11)   Turnberry
14. (12)   Bandon Trails
15. (15)   Black Mesa
16. (16)   Barnbougle
17. (17)   New South Wales
18 (20)   Kingsley Club
19 (*)     Cabo del Sol - Ocean
20. (18)   TPC Sawgrass
21. (13)   The Ocean Course at Kiawah
22. (19)   Woodlands
23 (*)     Fallen Oak
24 (9)   North Berwick
25 (*)   White Bear Yacht Club


Courses that have fallen off for me:

14.   Wildhorse
21.   Sutton Bay
22.   Bandon Dunes
24.   Pasatiempo
23.   Harvester
25.   Western Gailes

Ask me tomorrow and the list likely changes.

Andy Troeger

Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #752 on: February 08, 2013, 05:41:13 PM »
Update, with my last post (2011) rank in ()
1. Pine Valley (1)
2. Cypress Point (2)
3. Pebble Beach (3)
4. Shinnecock Hills (new)
5. Friar's Head (new)
6. Bandon Trails (4)
7. Pete Dye GC (new)
8. Pacific Dunes (7)
9. NGLA (new)
10. The Golf Club--OH (6)
11. Rock Creek (5)
12. TPC Sawgrass Stadium (15)
13. Victoria National (18)
14. Crystal Downs (9)
15. Blackwolf Run River (12)
16. Peachtree (13)
17. Muirfield Village (11)
18. Gozzer Ranch (14)
19. Wade Hampton (new)
20. Bandon Dunes (10)
21. Pikewood National (new)
22. Black Mesa (20)
23. Wolf Run (8 )
24. Riviera (25)
25. Kingsley Club (21)

Fell out...
Chambers Bay (16)...now 26
Alotian Club (17)
Honors Course (19)
Valley Club of Montecito (22)...now 28
Castle Pines (23)
Spyglass Hill (24)

Other newbies Dormie and Yale almost made it. As for all the seemingly random movements in the middle of that grouping, I'll just say that this is a "favorites" list and I could throw #12-25 (and perhaps a few more) in a hat on any given day and I might order them in a slightly different fashion. The gap between #11 and 12 is similar to the gap between #12 and #25. Also not much gap between #6-11.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #753 on: February 08, 2013, 06:26:44 PM »

11. Rock Creek (5)

23. Wolf Run (8 )

Andy:

Not to pick on you -- I've noticed others just above you doing it, too -- but, did you go back to either Rock Creek and Wolf Run before deciding to drop them below several other courses you rated them above a year ago?

Or were you just "talked out" of some of your more unusual choices by the conventional wisdom of the rankings?

This is why I think it's so silly to try and rank courses from 1 to 25 or 100 or whatever.  It's not even as significant as splitting hairs.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #754 on: February 08, 2013, 06:33:18 PM »
I'd rather split hares...especially during mating season.
Maybe for 2022
~Eden Valley
~Hillview
~Pinehurst (NY)
~Kis 'N Greens
~Pine Meadows
~18 Mile Creek
~Greenwood
~Shawnee
~Leroy
~

Jason Topp

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #755 on: February 08, 2013, 06:42:55 PM »


Andy:

Not to pick on you -- I've noticed others just above you doing it, too -- but, did you go back to either Rock Creek and Wolf Run before deciding to drop them below several other courses you rated them above a year ago?

Or were you just "talked out" of some of your more unusual choices by the conventional wisdom of the rankings?

This is why I think it's so silly to try and rank courses from 1 to 25 or 100 or whatever.  It's not even as significant as splitting hairs.

As one of the "others", in most cases I did not go back to the courses where I changed my ranking.   I just picked which one I would prefer to play if hypothetically all things were equal. That impression evolves and is impacted by a myriad of factors that impact perception.  The interesting part of the process is to go back and try and determine why I chose the order that I did choose.  But, without a doubt, any reasoning is justification after the fact. 

When you identified the distinguishing factor between good and great courses as being the existence of short par fours was that made before or after you had formed a preference?

Tom_Doak

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #756 on: February 08, 2013, 06:48:42 PM »
When you identified the distinguishing factor between good and great courses as being the existence of short par fours was that made before or after you had formed a preference?

It was an observation, after the fact, of the main difference between the 10's and the 9's as I'd ranked them for The Confidential Guide.

I've always liked short par-4 holes but I was surprised to find that most of my absolute favorite courses had three or four really good short 4's, while many of the top-10-ranked championship courses had one, or zero.  And that's not just the result of modern lengthening -- Winged Foot West only had one short par-4 when it opened, because it was trying hard to be a Championship course.

Andy Troeger

Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #757 on: February 08, 2013, 07:42:37 PM »

11. Rock Creek (5)

23. Wolf Run (8 )

Andy:

Not to pick on you -- I've noticed others just above you doing it, too -- but, did you go back to either Rock Creek and Wolf Run before deciding to drop them below several other courses you rated them above a year ago?

Or were you just "talked out" of some of your more unusual choices by the conventional wisdom of the rankings?

This is why I think it's so silly to try and rank courses from 1 to 25 or 100 or whatever.  It's not even as significant as splitting hairs.

The first time I posted on this thread I tried to do so alphabetically...and got called out for it. So I put in the numbers, because I've always had them. I'm not going to say that my #14 is a better course than #15...I make small changes all the time on rainy days or during the slow season. I tried to explain the lack of a gap in my previous post because I knew that someone would remark on the shuffling aspect. Your "silly" comment is fair...there's no real difference between courses near each other on that list.

Regarding Rock Creek...it has flipped with The Golf Club about ten times since I played them. Different courses, but I can't separate them. Ironically, it was Pac Dunes and not Old Mac that got a bump up based on playing NGLA. I felt that I liked Pac Dunes a smidge better than NGLA, but that I'd enjoy NGLA more on a regular basis that the courses now behind it. So Pac Dunes went up a bit. Rock Creek fell six spots, but four of those were for new additions.

I've picked on courses forever that I felt were too penal off the tee, and always have forgiven Wolf Run for it because I liked the individual holes so much. As my game has deteriorated from playing less, I am a bit less willing to make that exception. Granted, I still think its one of the top 40 courses (give or take) in the USA with that placement, so I'm still way off compared to the consensus perception. I think Rock Creek is top 20, so I'm high there too. Of course Sawgrass and Victoria National moved up despite being difficult, but I found both of them to be remarkably playable for me from the regular tees, even though they can challenge anybody from the back tees.

Mac Plumart

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #758 on: February 09, 2013, 09:35:30 AM »
Andy...

I'd love to hear your thoughts/comments on Pikewood. 
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Andy Troeger

Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #759 on: February 09, 2013, 09:58:46 AM »
Mac,

I've never really liked the term "amateur" architects, mainly because some of the classics were designed by guys who only built one course. But Pikewood is an in-house project for the employees of Greer Industries who love golf and I believe at least some of whom are members at Oakmont--so they like tough golf. They also have an appreciation for classic architecture and design principles, however.

The course is mainly cut through trees, but other than three clearing they tried to move as little dirt as possible. The clearing lines are very distinct--once off the playing corridors you're in the forest. But, I wasn't that bothered by that and the course itself has a nice look to it and its a beautiful area. The course is walking only and the property is challenging--18 is enough. There are a couple decent walks from greens to tees, but the entire course feels a bit like you're hiking through the woods and the pathways reminded me of hiking trails a bit. I enjoyed that aspect of it, but if you're looking for a core routing this isn't the place.

There are only two sets of tees--long and longer. The short ones are 6900 yards. I was admittedly worried about that--I can handle the yardage but obviously the course is designed for good golfers. You do have to be a pretty decent ball-striker to get around. There are quite a few forced carries, although the most challenging ones are the last two par threes. That said, my uncle in his mid-60's who is usually around a 13 handicap handled it fine and shot in the low 90's. It has pretty significant width of playing corridors, and we managed to find the ball a couple times when someone found the woods. I didn't feel like it played as long as the card indicated, although there is a mix of downhill and uphill holes. Even at that length, the variety of holes was good although most of them are fairly challenging. The course lacks a great short par four. It does have a cool short par three with a natural waterfall and rock formation which is pretty cool.

I give it major props for the quality of the longer par fours, which don't get redundant. The first par three had a nice view, but the last three were really interesting golf holes too. Its very private with only a few members in addition to Greer Industries itself--so they designed it for themselves as a players' course. Its not for everybody, but for a decent player its a neat experience and fun challenge. If it had a shorter set of tees and a short par four I'd probably have it about ten spots higher.

Mac Plumart

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #760 on: February 09, 2013, 10:01:50 AM »
Thanks, Andy!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #761 on: February 09, 2013, 10:19:43 PM »

11. Rock Creek (5)

23. Wolf Run (8 )

Andy:

Not to pick on you -- I've noticed others just above you doing it, too -- but, did you go back to either Rock Creek and Wolf Run before deciding to drop them below several other courses you rated them above a year ago?

Or were you just "talked out" of some of your more unusual choices by the conventional wisdom of the rankings?

This is why I think it's so silly to try and rank courses from 1 to 25 or 100 or whatever.  It's not even as significant as splitting hairs.

Tom, not to speak for Andy, but in my experience recency has a massive impact on my list of favorite courses.  I know I loved The Prairie Club (Dunes) course when I played it 30 months ago.  I said it was one of the top-30 modern courses in the country and I would have been happy to defend that position.  As time goes by I remember less and less about the course, I see more modern courses, and I feel less confident in my ability to defend that position.  As a result, it may drop in my list of favourites.

But, the rating I gave the course for Golfweek has not changed and there is zero chance I would go back and change it (unless I re-played the course).  There is no recency effect when all courses you play are immediately rated.  I almost think that if someone is truly interested in keeping a list of favourites, they should come up with their ranking system or set of criteria.  Otherwise, at least in my experience, your top-25 list becomes some mix of courses you've played recently and courses you loved a while ago, though you can't exactly explain why.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #762 on: February 09, 2013, 10:39:37 PM »

Tom, not to speak for Andy, but in my experience recency has a massive impact on my list of favorite courses.  I know I loved The Prairie Club (Dunes) course when I played it 30 months ago.  I said it was one of the top-30 modern courses in the country and I would have been happy to defend that position.  As time goes by I remember less and less about the course, I see more modern courses, and I feel less confident in my ability to defend that position.  As a result, it may drop in my list of favourites.

But, the rating I gave the course for Golfweek has not changed and there is zero chance I would go back and change it (unless I re-played the course).  There is no recency effect when all courses you play are immediately rated.  I almost think that if someone is truly interested in keeping a list of favourites, they should come up with their ranking system or set of criteria.  Otherwise, at least in my experience, your top-25 list becomes some mix of courses you've played recently and courses you loved a while ago, though you can't exactly explain why.

Mark:

That's a good point, and it is one big difference between the GOLF DIGEST system, where you try to rate a bunch of factors independently of other courses, and the other magazine rankings, which are more comparative in nature.  [How you can say that your "7.7" or whatever in the GOLFWEEK system is a fixed reference, I don't know.]

Ranking golf courses IS, after all, a comparative endeavour, and I still haven't seen anyone come up with a formula to explain what's a great course that I would agree with, so ... I can't agree with you there.

Indeed, I am struggling with the same issues as I start to update and re-edit The Confidential Guide.  There are many courses described that I haven't been back to in twenty years now.  Leaving aside the fact that some of them have been changed, my own ideas of golf have changed a little bit over that time.  Plus, I am a sucker for things that are different, and over time and more travels you find that the uniqueness factor for some courses wanes, while for others it just keeps getting stronger.  I'm going back through the UK courses now, and I find that I want to bump up the scores for many of the smaller courses, because in hindsight, what the rest of the world is missing is more courses like those. 

Tom_Doak

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #763 on: February 09, 2013, 10:45:51 PM »

The first time I posted on this thread I tried to do so alphabetically...and got called out for it. So I put in the numbers, because I've always had them. I'm not going to say that my #14 is a better course than #15...I make small changes all the time on rainy days or during the slow season. I tried to explain the lack of a gap in my previous post because I knew that someone would remark on the shuffling aspect. Your "silly" comment is fair...there's no real difference between courses near each other on that list.

Regarding Rock Creek...it has flipped with The Golf Club about ten times since I played them. Different courses, but I can't separate them. Ironically, it was Pac Dunes and not Old Mac that got a bump up based on playing NGLA. I felt that I liked Pac Dunes a smidge better than NGLA, but that I'd enjoy NGLA more on a regular basis that the courses now behind it. So Pac Dunes went up a bit. Rock Creek fell six spots, but four of those were for new additions.

I've picked on courses forever that I felt were too penal off the tee, and always have forgiven Wolf Run for it because I liked the individual holes so much. As my game has deteriorated from playing less, I am a bit less willing to make that exception. Granted, I still think its one of the top 40 courses (give or take) in the USA with that placement, so I'm still way off compared to the consensus perception. I think Rock Creek is top 20, so I'm high there too. Of course Sawgrass and Victoria National moved up despite being difficult, but I found both of them to be remarkably playable for me from the regular tees, even though they can challenge anybody from the back tees.

Andy:

Thanks for your response.  I hadn't picked up on the fact that Rock Creek dropping so far was due to the insertion of several courses you hadn't seen before.  I just know there are a lot of people who feel compelled over time to slide their initial judgments of an "outlier" course back closer to the consensus, even though they have not really revised their own thoughts about the outlier course. 

Peer pressure on the rankings is insidious.  If it were up to me I would never allow panelists to compare notes, only to recommend whether another panelist should go out of his way to see a new course, or not.


Andy Troeger

Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #764 on: February 10, 2013, 01:42:46 AM »
Mark,
There is certainly a recency effect for me as well. Of courses that give me really good first impressions, I find that about half of them having staying power and the other half drop a tier or two over time. Sometimes the good vibrations last a few weeks, other times a few years before the slide. When I first played them (and before I added a number of the courses now listed), Wolf Run was my #2, Paa-Ko Ridge #3, and Chambers Bay #3. On the other hand, Victoria National started at #15 in 2009 and has moved up even though seven of the courses ahead of it now were added later. Paa-Ko is the one course I've played quite a few times now--I still like it more than most do but the mountain scenery is admittedly not quite as spectacular after awhile.

Tom,
I think Golf Digest would probably prefer that panelists not ever rate courses together--which is a bit different from GolfWeek and their rater outings. Its hard to avoid entirely--I have too many rater friends at this point. But I think we make a point to never discuss actual ratings.

I do think there is one positive that comes out of discussing courses with others (not the specific numbers) and that is that it often forces me to justify why I like or dislike a course. Most of the time I have pretty specific reasons and can articulate them, whether or not the other party agrees with me. Every once in awhile I hear a point I hadn't noticed or considered previously. For one course, a poster here made a point that a certain course had very little variety in the sense that almost every hole was mid-length, including 3's, 4's, and 5's. When I went back and reviewed my notes and the scorecard, I found it to be true, even though I hadn't noticed it on my actual playing of the course. I would say that type of thing is pretty unusual, for me at least.

Sean_A

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #765 on: February 10, 2013, 03:34:26 AM »
I'm going back through the UK courses now, and I find that I want to bump up the scores for many of the smaller courses, because in hindsight, what the rest of the world is missing is more courses like those.


Hmmm, I think this is what many in GB&I (and Pietro P) have been arguing for a very long time.  Along these same lines, as a general group of courses I have seen in photo tours, the not so well known courses of northeastern US have been a real eye opener.  There is a ton of interesting architecture floating around there that goes unappreciated.

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2023: Cardigan, St David's City, Panmure, Kinghorn, Harrogate, Hinckley, Robin Hood, Sandiway & Ladybank

Sean Walsh

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #766 on: February 11, 2013, 03:33:23 AM »
1. TOC
2. Barnbougle Lost Farm
3. Barnbougle Dunes

4. County Louth
5. Lahinch
6. Kingston Heath
7. Royal Dornoch
8. Royal Portrush
9. Brora
10. Muirfield

11. North Berwick
12 Ballybunion
13. The Island
14 Victoria
15. Port Fairy
16 Ganton

17 The Eden (not bad for a 15 hole course ;) )
18 Barwon Heads
19 St Andrews Beach

20 Kingsbarns
21 Hoylake
22 Commonwelath
23 Royal Lytham and St Anne's

24 The New
25 Royal Aberdeen
26 Horsham/Carne/Royal Zoute/Enniscrone

Scott Warren

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #767 on: February 11, 2013, 04:53:52 AM »
Sean,

How far out of that picture is Thirteenth Beach (Beach)? I personally have it just ahead of your #18, Barwon Heads.

I love seeing Co. Louth so high. What about it earns such lofty praise from you?

Sean Walsh

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #768 on: February 11, 2013, 05:37:05 AM »
Scott,

My list was done without referring to notes or stroke-savers.  So off the top of my head, all from course I've played in the last 10 years (Horsham the exception I might have played that 11 years ago).  As such memorable holes and just having fun at the place were probably likely to improve your placing on the list. 

Re 13th Beach v Barwon Heads.  I think the latter has the better top end holes.  Two GREAT par 3's.  13th Beach I've only played for the hundred hole hike and not long after it opened.  With the proviso that a lot of my golf wasn't exactly vintage for the hike I would say that 13th beach is a tougher course than Barwon Heads but most approaches are reasonably narrow. Not exactly taking the ground game away but definitely diminishing its effectiveness.  On a links course thats a slight negative for me.  Also although it is consistently good golf I don't think it has the great holes to elevate above its neighbours.  I'm probably off Brett's Christmas Card list now.

For County Louth, mainly it's the 14th.  Definitely in the top 5 holes I have ever played.  It has quirk, in the form of the 3rd.  The 4th fairway is just great.  Love a good humpy fairway (Ballyliffin Old nearly makes my 25 or so just for some of the holes out the Western end for this reason alone).  Some very good par 3's taking out the 17th which I believe has been altered since my visits.  I also love the 16th a great natural green site on a longish par 4.  7 Holes without a greenside bunker (including some of it's best 4, 12, 14 & 16).  For some reason it just matches the way I want to play my golf.  I loved Lahinch, Ballybunion, The Island, Portrush, Carne and Enniscrone but of all the course I've played in Ireland this is the one I'd join in a heartbeat. It's not a course trying too hard.  The land and the wind dictates the golf.  That said 17 was poor and it's unfortunate that 18 is placed where it is in the round. A 559yd par 5 is a tough finish.  Although it's nowhere near as bad as Tralee's finishing hole (466yds straight uphill)   

Sean_A

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #769 on: July 28, 2013, 07:22:46 AM »
Sean

Talk to me about Horsham.  I love it when odd names pop up for these things.

Does anybody else want a go or like to update?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2023: Cardigan, St David's City, Panmure, Kinghorn, Harrogate, Hinckley, Robin Hood, Sandiway & Ladybank

Eric Smith

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #770 on: September 25, 2013, 03:19:30 PM »
My updated favorites list 9/25/2013

St Andrews
Sebonack
Machrihanish
Dismal River White
Dismal River Red
Renaissance
Pennard
National Golf Links
Wolf Point
Sand Hills
North Berwick
Shinnecock Hills
Prairie Dunes
Ballyneal
Prestwick
Machrihanish Dunes
Sleepy Hollow
Royal Cinque Ports
Turnberry
Royal Porthcawl
Boston
Merion
Kingsley
Pasatiempo
Pinehurst No.2

Marc Haring

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #771 on: September 25, 2013, 03:58:57 PM »
1.   Saunton East
2.   Birkdale
3.   Royal St Georges
4.   Deal
5.   Rye
6.   Berkshire Red
7.   Berkshire Blue
8.   Sunningdale Old
9.   Sunningdale New
10.   Royal North Devon
11.   Burnham and Berrow
12.   Hankley Common
13.   Walton Heath Old
14.   Walton Heath New
15.   The Addington
16.   St Enedoc
17.   Gleneagles Kings
18.   Royal Ashdown Forest
19.   St Georges Hill
20.   Swinley Forest
21.   Woking
22.   Alwoodley
23.   Silloth on Solway
24.   Worplesdon
25.   Stoke Park


Need to get across the pond.

Brian Finn

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #772 on: September 25, 2013, 04:14:24 PM »
I have never posted my list here...my 25 favorites:

Sleepy Hollow
Bethpage Black
Pinehurst #2
Plainfield CC
The Golf Club
Portmarnock
Yale
The Creek
Kiawah Ocean
Rock Creek Cattle
Kirtland CC
Dormie Club
Brookside CC
Harbour Town
Spyglass
Streamsong Blue
Pete Dye GC
Chechesee Creek
Scioto CC
Mountain Ridge CC
Streamsong Red
Tobacco Road
Long Cove
Giant's Ridge - Quarry
Moraine CC

Hoping Kingsley will meet/beat expectations and knock one of these off after the MW Mashie!

Mark Arata

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #773 on: September 25, 2013, 04:49:13 PM »
1 NGLA
2 Cypress Point
3 Prairie Dunes
4 Royal Dornoch
5 Fishers Island
6 LACC north
7 North Berwick
8 Riviera
9 Yale
10 St Andrews Old
11 Pebble Beach
12 SFGC
13 Pasatiempo
14 Pacific Dunes
15 Old Mac
16 Crystal Downs
17 Friars Head
18 Yeaman's Hall
19 Sebonack
20 Cal Club
21 The Alwoodley
22 Murifield
23 Woodhall Spa
24 Knotts (Hollinwell)
25 Rustic Canyon/Ganton/Royal Aberdeen
New Orleans, proud to swim home...........

David Kelly

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #774 on: September 25, 2013, 04:52:46 PM »
1 NGLA
2 Cypress Point
3 Prairie Dunes
4 Royal Dornoch
5 Fishers Island
6 LACC north
7 North Berwick
8 Riviera
9 Yale
10 St Andrews Old
11 Pebble Beach
12 SFGC
13 Pasatiempo
14 Pacific Dunes
15 Old Mac
16 Crystal Downs
17 Friars Head
18 Yeaman's Hall
19 Sebonack
20 Cal Club
21 The Alwoodley
22 Murifield
23 Woodhall Spa
24 Knotts (Hollinwell)
25 Rustic Canyon/Ganton/Royal Aberdeen

Rustic Canyon/Ganton/Royal Aberdeen are all head and shoulders above Woodhall Spa.  But otherwise, nice.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

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