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Sean_A

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #525 on: March 16, 2011, 05:46:31 AM »
When I looked back over the first list, I noted the absence of heathland courses, even though I love the genre and have several favorites.  I guess the problem for me is that none of them stand out head and shoulders above the others with a great set of greens, apart from Woking which is quite short.  So, there are a bunch of 8's but not quite a 9 ... unless you count Royal Melbourne and Kingston Heath as "heathland", which they are very close to being.

Tom

I notice the qualifier of "quite short" for Woking.  Is there a minimum distance for any given course which it must achieve for top honours?  For instance, if Woking were another X amount of yards longer on selected holes would that raise your opinion of the course?  I think Woking is now about 6550 from the tips with a par of 70.  This sort of yardage to par doesn't strike me a short especially when we consider there are three par 4s which can be driven by flat bellies (only one of these is really up for grabs for players of more modest ability such as myself).  For my part, the only aspect I don't care for in the design is the back to back three shotters - thats a tough thing to pull off on teh best of properties.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2023: Cardigan, St David's City, Clyne, Panmure, Kinghorn, Harrogate, West Byfleet, North Foreland & Ladybank

Tony Weiler

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #526 on: March 16, 2011, 10:29:31 AM »
Tom, great list.  Thanks for posting it.  In the past you have been reluctant to "rate" your own courses.  In these two lists, you do.  Is that a change of heart, or just that your opinions on them are well known?  Also, are all the top 25 Doak 10s?  Thanks.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #527 on: March 16, 2011, 10:47:59 AM »
When I looked back over the first list, I noted the absence of heathland courses, even though I love the genre and have several favorites.  I guess the problem for me is that none of them stand out head and shoulders above the others with a great set of greens, apart from Woking which is quite short.  So, there are a bunch of 8's but not quite a 9 ... unless you count Royal Melbourne and Kingston Heath as "heathland", which they are very close to being.


Tom

I notice the qualifier of "quite short" for Woking.  Is there a minimum distance for any given course which it must achieve for top honours?  For instance, if Woking were another X amount of yards longer on selected holes would that raise your opinion of the course?  I think Woking is now about 6550 from the tips with a par of 70.  This sort of yardage to par doesn't strike me a short especially when we consider there are three par 4s which can be driven by flat bellies (only one of these is really up for grabs for players of more modest ability such as myself).  For my part, the only aspect I don't care for in the design is the back to back three shotters - thats a tough thing to pull off on teh best of properties.

Ciao

Sean,

I haven't been back to Woking for 15 years or so and it sounds as if they have lengthened it a bit; I think it was barely 6300 yards back when I played it. 

There isn't a minimum distance for me, but there is for a lot of other people, and it varies depending on the individual.  Cypress Point and Fishers Island are only 6500 yards, and few people deny that they belong among the world's best; but both of them benefit from stunning scenery that allows raters to give them a pass on the scorecard test.

For me, even those two are different.  I think Cypress Point makes much better use of its 6500 yards than Fishers Island does.  Cypress has a handful of all-world short par-4's, which help to justify it being short; but it also has a handful of very difficult holes, like the 11th, 12th and 16th, which give the strong player something to chew on.  I've only played Fishers Island twice, but it didn't seem to me to make as much of either end of the scale.  Woking would have the same problem ... the only two stronger holes that stand out in my mind are the 3rd and the 8th, and the 3rd isn't really that long, either.

I really shouldn't have used Woking as an example because while it has some of the coolest greens I've ever seen, the design is more than a bit uneven, and there are too many forgettable holes to really place it among my top 25.  But there is plenty enough cool stuff to put it down as a favorite.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #528 on: March 16, 2011, 11:00:27 AM »
Tom, great list.  Thanks for posting it.  In the past you have been reluctant to "rate" your own courses.  In these two lists, you do.  Is that a change of heart, or just that your opinions on them are well known?  Also, are all the top 25 Doak 10s?  Thanks.

Tony:

I turned 50 today, and the gloves are off.  [Just kidding ... or at least I know some people who hope I'm kidding.]

I didn't put numbers on those courses, but if you want to read between the lines, you would notice that the twelve courses I rated as 10's in The Confidential Guide are all in the top 14 on my list of top courses, and that all the courses after that which I have rated publicly were 9's, except North Berwick which was an 8.  You may draw your own conclusions from that.

I've always been hesitant to rate my own courses in the top 10 or top 50 or whatever, because I remember seeing the ballots of other architects in the GOLF Magazine poll years ago, and thinking how silly it looked for them to rate two of their own courses in the top ten [or 40 in the top 100 ::) ].  I know we are all biased to like our own work, and that most other people wouldn't agree with us.  But you know that, too, and this is among friends ... and all four of my own courses that I rated so highly have a fair amount of support from others who have seen them.

As for the favorites list, that one's more personal, and there is nothing really to defend.  I don't think Stone Eagle is one of the greatest courses in the world; but, like Pennard or St. Enodoc, it's a spectacular place to go play golf, and I'd happily take anybody I know to play it.

Patrick Hodgdon

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #529 on: March 16, 2011, 11:16:07 AM »
Sean:

At least half of my top 25 courses would also be on my list of 'favorites' but I don't see the point in overlapping the two lists and subtly disrespecting some of my own top 25.  So, here's a list of my 25 favorites not on the above list.  I'm going alphabetical this time:

Brora
Cape Kidnappers
Casa de Campo (Teeth of the Dog)
Cruden Bay
Cuscowilla
Garden City
The Golf Club
Lahinch
Long Cove
Pennard
Prestwick
Royal West Norfolk
Royal Worlington & Newmarket
Rye
St. Andrews Beach
St. Enodoc
St. George's (Toronto)
St. George's Hill
The Sheep Ranch
Stone Eagle
Swinley Forest
Walton Heath (Old)
White Bear Yacht Club
Whitinsville
Woking
Woodhall Spa


Crap, that's 26.  Guess that's what I get for not numbering them, but I'm not going to go back and remove one of them.  There were actually several more it pained me to leave out, not least of them the two new ones at Streamsong.


Tom I was surprised to not see Pasatiempo on your favorites list. Was it one that pained you to leave out? Would it have made the top 30?
Did you know World Woods has the best burger I've ever had in my entire life? I'm planning a trip back just for another one between rounds.

"I would love to be a woman golfer." -JC Jones

Cristian

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #530 on: March 16, 2011, 11:51:33 AM »
I don't understand the distinction between best and favourite. To me if I would like to go there again it is good; the ones I want to return to the most are the best.

From the lists I have seen of people making a distinction Best seems to me to be B=F+R-/-Q ;-)

(Best= Favourite + Resistance to scoring(length) -/- Quirk)

I don't understand the resistance to scoring bit, turn two short 500 yds par 5's into 2 long 499 yds par 4's and the course becomes better? (but not more favourite?). Also if a course is a bit shorter maybe people will score slightly better (although not necessarily), however this is true for both the average and the better player, so the course might still be an excellent test as well as a pleasant round.

Also if quirk adds to the mix in terms of a course becoming a favourite, then why would that be not good?

I say good=favourite for any one individual since it is probably impossible to filter out one's own preferences anyway.

Sean_A

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #531 on: March 16, 2011, 12:32:03 PM »
When I looked back over the first list, I noted the absence of heathland courses, even though I love the genre and have several favorites.  I guess the problem for me is that none of them stand out head and shoulders above the others with a great set of greens, apart from Woking which is quite short.  So, there are a bunch of 8's but not quite a 9 ... unless you count Royal Melbourne and Kingston Heath as "heathland", which they are very close to being.


Tom

I notice the qualifier of "quite short" for Woking.  Is there a minimum distance for any given course which it must achieve for top honours?  For instance, if Woking were another X amount of yards longer on selected holes would that raise your opinion of the course?  I think Woking is now about 6550 from the tips with a par of 70.  This sort of yardage to par doesn't strike me a short especially when we consider there are three par 4s which can be driven by flat bellies (only one of these is really up for grabs for players of more modest ability such as myself).  For my part, the only aspect I don't care for in the design is the back to back three shotters - thats a tough thing to pull off on teh best of properties.

Ciao

Sean,

I haven't been back to Woking for 15 years or so and it sounds as if they have lengthened it a bit; I think it was barely 6300 yards back when I played it.  

There isn't a minimum distance for me, but there is for a lot of other people, and it varies depending on the individual.  Cypress Point and Fishers Island are only 6500 yards, and few people deny that they belong among the world's best; but both of them benefit from stunning scenery that allows raters to give them a pass on the scorecard test.

For me, even those two are different.  I think Cypress Point makes much better use of its 6500 yards than Fishers Island does.  Cypress has a handful of all-world short par-4's, which help to justify it being short; but it also has a handful of very difficult holes, like the 11th, 12th and 16th, which give the strong player something to chew on.  I've only played Fishers Island twice, but it didn't seem to me to make as much of either end of the scale.  Woking would have the same problem ... the only two stronger holes that stand out in my mind are the 3rd and the 8th, and the 3rd isn't really that long, either.

I really shouldn't have used Woking as an example because while it has some of the coolest greens I've ever seen, the design is more than a bit uneven, and there are too many forgettable holes to really place it among my top 25.  But there is plenty enough cool stuff to put it down as a favorite.

Tom

I spose I would add the 13th to the "strong" list.  I would also mention the two par 5s as quite strong in that they are difficult to reach and leave an opportunity for birdie, but would still be holes which very good players would want to birdie.  I am not sure of any of the uneven holes you allude to.  I think all the par 4s add something to the design and the 3s as well with the possible exception of the 16th.  There is also a sort of unquantifiable aspect of how Woking hangs together which is very appealing.

Cristian

There is definitely an element or nod to champiosnhip golf on my part when it comes to the dividing line between favourite and great.  More importantly, my favourites are all courses I would consider good value and that is not the case when I consider a best of list.  I just don't see most of the Best as significantly better than Favourites to warrant spending the extra cash for a fun game - which is all golf is for me.  The courses which imoress me most are those which can straddle either list.

Ciao    
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 12:42:19 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2023: Cardigan, St David's City, Clyne, Panmure, Kinghorn, Harrogate, West Byfleet, North Foreland & Ladybank

Gary Slatter

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #532 on: March 16, 2011, 12:32:55 PM »
my top 25 FAVOURITE courses, difficult to put in order as it changes each day!
Royal County Down
Royal Dornoch
Cypress Point
The National, Toronto
Jasper
St George's, Toronto
Prestwick
Muirfield
Kiawah Ocean
Carnoustie
The Old Course
Shinnecock
Maidstone
Ballybunion
Cinnamon Hill
Lahinch
Ville d'Este
Portmarnoch
Lucayan CC
Doral Blue
Seminole
Spyglass
Pebble Beach
Congressional
Pinehurst 4
Sunningdale Old or New

too many fine experiences left on the table, TPC Sawgrass, European Club, Essex, Islington, PGA West, Ancaster, Sunningdale (Canada), etc.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

George Henninger

Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #533 on: March 21, 2011, 09:33:54 PM »
I have found the discussion on Top 25 courses played fascinating.  All have a different perspective and for most, influenced by the day and the score.

My listing of courses that I would love to play over and over again include:

Pine Valley
Fisher's island
St Andrews Old
National Golf Links
Kiawah Ocean
Lahinch
Merion
Troon North
Querencia
Royal St George
Walton Heath Old
Ballybunion New
Prestwick
Woodhall Spa
Huntingdon Valley
Dornoch
Friars Head
Baltusrol Upper
Prestwick

Looking at the list, it is heavy on traditional versus modern, sea versus land/parkland.

Sean Leary

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #534 on: March 21, 2011, 09:43:20 PM »
I have found the discussion on Top 25 courses played fascinating.  All have a different perspective and for most, influenced by the day and the score.

My listing of courses that I would love to play over and over again include:

Pine Valley
Fisher's island
St Andrews Old
National Golf Links
Kiawah Ocean
Lahinch
Merion
Troon North
Querencia
Royal St George
Walton Heath Old
Ballybunion New
Prestwick
Woodhall Spa
Huntingdon Valley
Dornoch
Friars Head
Baltusrol Upper
Prestwick

Looking at the list, it is heavy on traditional versus modern, sea versus land/parkland.


Hi George,

Welcome.

The one that sticks out to me on your list is Querencia. I have played it a number of times and like it but it seemingly doesn't fit in with the rest. What makes it make this list (other than the margaritas, which are the best I have ever had) :)

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #535 on: March 21, 2011, 10:06:42 PM »
George,

welcome from a fellow newbie.

You wrote that the courses you listed were "influence by the day and the score."  Curious, any courses come to mind that perhaps would have made your list but for the way you played?

Also, curious about Troon North.  I thought it was OK, but far from my favorite (even public) in Phoenix area.  Why does this one make your top 25?  Have you not played many in the area or did you like it that much?

Anyways, enjoy the site.

Mark

Jud_T

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #536 on: March 22, 2011, 11:10:04 AM »
George,

First post and you're getting ripped already!  Welcome to Thunderdome...1200 enter, no one leaves....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

J Cabarcos

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #537 on: March 22, 2011, 08:50:17 PM »
As another newbie throwing his 2 cents for top courses played, I know that I would love to play the following courses again in a heartbeat

Pasatiempo, CA
Lahinch, Ire
Bethpage Black, NY
Royal Portrush, NI
Kiawah, SC

After a few more minutes, my recollections go to a second tier of

Ballyowen, NJ
Montauk Downs, NY
Bethpage Green, NY
El Saler, Spain
Bethpage Red, NY

It is a shame that I can not in good include any course from my hometown state of FLA on a "tops" list.  If I were to include such a course, I know that the municipal Crandon Golf would beat out Doral Blue for the spot.

Andy Troeger

Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #538 on: March 22, 2011, 10:33:46 PM »
I've played quite a few courses including the Bandon quartet since my original post about 12 pages ago and had a request for an update:

Pine Valley
Cypress Point
Pebble Beach
Bandon Trails
Rock Creek
The Golf Club (OH)
Pacific Dunes
Wolf Run
Crystal Downs
Bandon Dunes
Muirfield Village
Blackwolf Run River
Peachtree
Gozzer Ranch
TPC Sawgrass Stadium
Chambers Bay
Alotian Club
Victoria National
Honors Course
Black Mesa
Kingsley Club
Valley Club of Montecito
Castle Pines
Spyglass Hill
Riviera

Charlie Visconsi

Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #539 on: March 22, 2011, 11:33:05 PM »
As a newbie type  here you go... biased towards midwest courses and the more fun courses like Winged Foot East and Balty Upper, Harbour Town.   

NGLA
Shinnecock
Pine Valley
Crystal Downs
Mid Ocean
Winged Foot East
Harbour Town
Yale
Oakmont
Pacific Dunes
Kingsley Club
Essex County (NJ)
Canterbury
MPCC Shore
Baltursol Upper
Eastward Ho
Pete Dye GC
Inverness
Winged Foot West
Muirfield Village
Chechesee Creek
Baltursol (Lower)
Whisting Straits
Shadow Creek
Bayonne

Patrick Little

Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #540 on: March 23, 2011, 01:22:06 AM »
1.  Pine Valley
2.  Cypress Point
3.  Morfontaine
4.  Royal Country Down
5.  Swinley Forest
6.  Royal and Ancient St Andrews Old
7.  Jasper Park Lodge
8.  Bandon Dunes
9.  Ganton
10. Royal Birkdale
11. Sand Hills
12. Prairie Dunes
13. Kingston Heath
14. Sunningdale old
15. Capilano
16. Royal Portrush
17. Royal Melbourne
18. Augusta National
19. Los Angeles Country Club, North
20. Long Cove Club
21. Merion
22. Royal Dornoch
23. Royal Liverpool
24. Ballybunion
25. Hollies

George Freeman

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #541 on: March 23, 2011, 07:32:28 AM »
1.  Pine Valley
2.  Cypress Point
3.  Morfontaine
4.  Royal Country Down
5.  Swinley Forest
6.  Royal and Ancient St Andrews Old
7.  Jasper Park Lodge
8.  Bandon Dunes
9.  Ganton
10. Royal Birkdale
11. Sand Hills
12. Prairie Dunes
13. Kingston Heath
14. Sunningdale old
15. Capilano
16. Royal Portrush
17. Royal Melbourne
18. Augusta National
19. Los Angeles Country Club, North
20. Long Cove Club
21. Merion
22. Royal Dornoch
23. Royal Liverpool
24. Ballybunion
25. Hollies


Patrick,

Great list, and welcome.

I'm curious:  were the other Bandon resort courses in operation when you played Bandon Dunes?  If yes, which ones and I'd be curious why you included Bandon Dunes and excluded the others.

Cheers,

George
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Tony Weiler

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #542 on: March 23, 2011, 01:15:02 PM »
I've played quite a few courses including the Bandon quartet since my original post about 12 pages ago and had a request for an update:

Pine Valley
Cypress Point
Pebble Beach
Bandon Trails
Rock Creek
The Golf Club (OH)
Pacific Dunes
Wolf Run
Crystal Downs
Bandon Dunes
Muirfield Village
Blackwolf Run River
Peachtree
Gozzer Ranch
TPC Sawgrass Stadium
Chambers Bay
Alotian Club
Victoria National
Honors Course
Black Mesa
Kingsley Club
Valley Club of Montecito
Castle Pines
Spyglass Hill
Riviera

Andy, your excluding Old Mac is  interesting.  Care to explain?  Also, why is Riv so far down your list?  Thanks.

ChrisHervochon

Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #543 on: March 23, 2011, 02:39:55 PM »
My list is kind of sad compared to you guys...

Merion
Ocean Course
Bethpage Black
Harbour Town
Tobacco Road
Mid Ocean Club
Crumpin Fox Club
Pine Hill (Now Trump National, sadly)
Wedgwood C.C.
Sand Barrens (South/North)
Alamance C.C.
Golden Horseshoe
Disney's Osprey Ridge
Caves Valley
Blue Heron East (extinct)
French Creek
Beechtree (extinct)
Medford Village
Stone Harbor (before they messed with it)
Huntingdon Valley
Philly Cricket Club (Militia Hill)
Renault Winery GC
Glen Mills
The ACE Club
Rolling Green












Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #544 on: March 23, 2011, 02:59:26 PM »
I am just so happy to see The Mr Doak gave Woodhall Spa such an elevated spot...that to me is such a superb golf course.
I rate it well inside my top 25 every time, somehwat underated I believe, probably because of its "out of the way "for Americans locale.
I have always thought it would be a great place to go and prepare for an Open without having to worry about all the wind that one may find by preparing for links golf.
I know what you are thinkiing ...isnt that all part of the preperation...well yes, but simply the style of turf, bunkering etc would be a great practicing tool without all the buffering from the wind.

Andy Troeger

Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #545 on: March 23, 2011, 06:30:37 PM »
I've played quite a few courses including the Bandon quartet since my original post about 12 pages ago and had a request for an update:

Pine Valley
Cypress Point
Pebble Beach
Bandon Trails
Rock Creek
The Golf Club (OH)
Pacific Dunes
Wolf Run
Crystal Downs
Bandon Dunes
Muirfield Village
Blackwolf Run River
Peachtree
Gozzer Ranch
TPC Sawgrass Stadium
Chambers Bay
Alotian Club
Victoria National
Honors Course
Black Mesa
Kingsley Club
Valley Club of Montecito
Castle Pines
Spyglass Hill
Riviera

Andy, your excluding Old Mac is  interesting.  Care to explain?  Also, why is Riv so far down your list?  Thanks.

Tony,
I almost put a comment that I figured the most likely response anyone would have was ďwhereís Old Mac?Ē  It would be in the next five, along with Pasatiempo and Whistling Straits. Regarding OM and Riviera, they are both excellent coursesóprobably 8ís on the Doak scale for me. I do understand that many give them 9ís or 10ís. If thereís a criticism to be made at Riviera for me itís the kikuyu and the lack of ground game available because of thatóbut itís a part of the course and the experience at this point. For Old Mac, the difference between me giving it an 8 or something higher is that I felt you could pretty much drive it anywhere at OM as long as you missed the fairway bunkers. Thereís certainly something to be said for longer approaches and poorer angles there based on taking conservative lines off tees, but I still think the course puts a bit too much premium on the short game compared to the rest. For some thatís a good thingóI prefer a little more balance. I also am not a huge fan of the templatesóthey donít detract, but they donít add any special vibes to me. If ever given the opportunity to build a course (not likely) I wouldnít request a Redan or Biarritz, but thatís just me! 

George Henninger

Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #546 on: March 24, 2011, 09:32:40 PM »
George,

First post and you're getting ripped already!  Welcome to Thunderdome...1200 enter, no one leaves....

Jud, I always loved those Mad Max movies so I will ride this one out!!  Regards

George Henninger

Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #547 on: March 24, 2011, 09:39:33 PM »
I have found the discussion on Top 25 courses played fascinating.  All have a different perspective and for most, influenced by the day and the score.

My listing of courses that I would love to play over and over again include:

Pine Valley
Fisher's island
St Andrews Old
National Golf Links
Kiawah Ocean
Lahinch
Merion
Troon North
Querencia
Royal St George
Walton Heath Old
Ballybunion New
Prestwick
Woodhall Spa
Huntingdon Valley
Dornoch
Friars Head
Baltusrol Upper
Prestwick

Looking at the list, it is heavy on traditional versus modern, sea versus land/parkland.


Hi George,

Welcome.

The one that sticks out to me on your list is Querencia. I have played it a number of times and like it but it seemingly doesn't fit in with the rest. What makes it make this list (other than the margaritas, which are the best I have ever had) :)

I thought the par threes were exceptional and good variety for the entire eighteen.  I am not a Fazio fan so I was very surprised with the entire layout and experience despite not trying the margaritas.  Not sure if you have played Eldorado, a Nicklaus course, in Cabo.  On their 18th tee, there have a small cabinet containing 2 bottles of tequila and glasses.  The sign over the cabinet reads "the last shot."

George Henninger
 

Tony Weiler

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #548 on: March 24, 2011, 11:40:43 PM »
Thanks, Andy.  I only mentioned OM because you mentioned that you played all 4 at Bandon.  I'm playing Riv in May, and will see for myself!

Kirk Stewart

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Re: Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played
« Reply #549 on: March 25, 2011, 01:21:15 PM »
1.   Seminole
2.   PGA National Champ
3.   Avila
4.   Medalist
5.   Jupiter Hills
6.   Pinetree
7.   Oakmont
8.   Laurel Valley
9.   Peachtree
10.   Cuscowilla
11.   Settindown Creek
12.   Atlanta Athletic Club
13.   East Lake
14.   The Old Course
15.   Carnoustie
16.   Prestwick
17.   Turnberry-Ailsa
18.   Ballybunion
19.   Waterville
20.   Tralee
21.   Chicago Golf
22.   Butler Natl
23.   Blackwolf Run-River
24.   Harbour Town
25.   Pottawatomie GC

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