[Richard Crumb]

1. Shinnecock Hills
2. North Berwick
3. NGLA
4. Royal Dornoch
5. Yeamans Hall
6. TOC
7. Garden City GC
8. Seminole
9. Ekwanok
10. Maidstone
11. Yale
12. Sleepy Hollow
13. Piping Rock
14. Taconic
15. Royal St. David's
16. Aberdovey
17. Winged Foot (West)
18. Bethpage (Black)
19. Nairn
20. The Country Club
21. Winged Foot (East)
22. Gullane #1
23. Nefyn
24. CC of Charleston
25. Dunbar
 

[Tom_Doak]

Jim-

Whistling Straights and Blackwolf River over Kingsley and Pinehurst #2? not obvious my friend! and i'll give 10-1 that TDoak doesn't rock his list here....

Jud:  I haven't posted a list like this for a long time, but at 10-1 odds, why not?

1   The Old Course at St. Andrews
2   Royal Melbourne (West)
3   Sand Hills
4   Pine Valley
5   National Golf Links of America
6   Cypress Point
7   Crystal Downs
8   Shinnecock Hills
9   Royal Dornoch
10  Merion (East)
11  Pacific Dunes
12  Ballybunion (Old)
13  Muirfield
14  Pinehurst (No. 2)
15  Royal County Down
16  Barnbougle Dunes
17  Kingston Heath
18  Ballyneal
19  Pebble Beach
20  Augusta National
21  Seminole
22  Prairie Dunes
23  Rock Creek
24  Riviera
25  North Berwick (West)

The bottom of the list was hard to do, as I've had to cut it off with several 9's on the Doak scale yet to be mentioned.   
Note to Oakmont fans:  I still haven't played there, so I couldn't consider it.

[Michael Goldstein]

Love it TD.  That list is pure.  What about Turnberry / St Georges & your contribution to NZ at Kidnappers. 

[Scott Warren]

Holy shit. I've played eight of Tom Doak's Top 25.

July 21, 2009, I had played none!

[Brad Isaacs]

Tom,

Prarie Dunes is an interesting choice.  There are many incredible holes on this course.  I love 8, 9, 6, 1, 2, 3, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15  but I just can't get into 17 and 18, and maybe I would like 10 better if I hadn't gagged on it.  It is certainly a pressure shot with the clubhouse looking on.

THe green on 17 is interesting but the rest of the hole is, well, pedestrian.  18 as a dramatic finishing hole it does not quite make it.  My question is what am I missing on those holes that make it deserve to be in a group of courses with so very few week holes?

 I know that 18 at Ballyneal is not loved by a lot but I find it to be quite entertaining as you think you can go left and short cut it but don't go to far left!

Brad I.

[Sean_A]

Jim-

Whistling Straights and Blackwolf River over Kingsley and Pinehurst #2? not obvious my friend! and i'll give 10-1 that TDoak doesn't rock his list here....

Jud:  I haven't posted a list like this for a long time, but at 10-1 odds, why not?

1   The Old Course at St. Andrews
2   Royal Melbourne (West)
3   Sand Hills
4   Pine Valley
5   National Golf Links of America
6   Cypress Point
7   Crystal Downs
8   Shinnecock Hills
9   Royal Dornoch
10  Merion (East)
11  Pacific Dunes
12  Ballybunion (Old)
13  Muirfield
14  Pinehurst (No. 2)
15  Royal County Down
16  Barnbougle Dunes
17  Kingston Heath
18  Ballyneal
19  Pebble Beach
20  Augusta National
21  Seminole
22  Prairie Dunes
23  Rock Creek
24  Riviera
25  North Berwick (West)

The bottom of the list was hard to do, as I've had to cut it off with several 9's on the Doak scale yet to be mentioned.   
Note to Oakmont fans:  I still haven't played there, so I couldn't consider it.

Tom, I won't give you odds, but I am hoping you will indulge me (and anybody else who cares to read it) wth a list of 25 favourites.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Sean:

At least half of my top 25 courses would also be on my list of 'favorites' but I don't see the point in overlapping the two lists and subtly disrespecting some of my own top 25.  So, here's a list of my 25 favorites not on the above list.  I'm going alphabetical this time:

Brora
Cape Kidnappers
Casa de Campo (Teeth of the Dog)
Cruden Bay
Cuscowilla
Garden City
The Golf Club
Lahinch
Long Cove
Pennard
Prestwick
Royal West Norfolk
Royal Worlington & Newmarket
Rye
St. Andrews Beach
St. Enodoc
St. George's (Toronto)
St. George's Hill
The Sheep Ranch
Stone Eagle
Swinley Forest
Walton Heath (Old)
White Bear Yacht Club
Whitinsville
Woking
Woodhall Spa


Crap, that's 26.  Guess that's what I get for not numbering them, but I'm not going to go back and remove one of them.  There were actually several more it pained me to leave out, not least of them the two new ones at Streamsong.

[C. Squier]

Tom,

Prarie Dunes is an interesting choice.  There are many incredible holes on this course.  I love 8, 9, 6, 1, 2, 3, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15  but I just can't get into 17 and 18, and maybe I would like 10 better if I hadn't gagged on it.  It is certainly a pressure shot with the clubhouse looking on.

THe green on 17 is interesting but the rest of the hole is, well, pedestrian.  18 as a dramatic finishing hole it does not quite make it.  My question is what am I missing on those holes that make it deserve to be in a group of courses with so very few week holes?

 I know that 18 at Ballyneal is not loved by a lot but I find it to be quite entertaining as you think you can go left and short cut it but don't go to far left!

Brad I.

Use the far left tee box on #17 next time you visit.  Changes the hole dramatically, IMO.

[Sean_A]

Sean:

At least half of my top 25 courses would also be on my list of 'favorites' but I don't see the point in overlapping the two lists and subtly disrespecting some of my own top 25.  So, here's a list of my 25 favorites not on the above list.  I'm going alphabetical this time:

Brora
Cape Kidnappers
Casa de Campo (Teeth of the Dog)
Cruden Bay
Cuscowilla
Garden City
The Golf Club
Lahinch
Long Cove
Pennard
Prestwick
Royal West Norfolk
Royal Worlington & Newmarket
Rye
St. Andrews Beach
St. Enodoc
St. George's (Toronto)
St. George's Hill
The Sheep Ranch
Stone Eagle
Swinley Forest
Walton Heath (Old)
White Bear Yacht Club
Whitinsville
Woking
Woodhall Spa


Crap, that's 26.  Guess that's what I get for not numbering them, but I'm not going to go back and remove one of them.  There were actually several more it pained me to leave out, not least of them the two new ones at Streamsong.

Tom

Cheers, its an interesting list which contans at least four courses I would like to see/get to know better.  I also note there are four heathland courses listed yet none made the first list.  What is it about these heathland courses you find very attractive, but not quite upo to scratch in terms of top quality?

Ciao

[JC Jones]

Jud,

I think anyone who has been paying attention probably isn't surprised by Tom's lists.  The best align with the Confidential Guide and his statements here and his favorites are largely quirky courses from overseas, which he has proclaimed his love for quite often.

One of the great things about his participation is we learn so much; one of the downsides would be lists like these with no surprises.

[Ian Andrew]

Tom,

While I have seen 23 on the first list (final 2 this year) I have unfortunately played only 10 of the more interesting list.
Thanks for a new list to work on.

One question:
Was Highlands Links considered for the second list?

[Tom_Doak]

JC,

It's hard to provide surprises when I am already on the record as to my thoughts more than anyone here, and I wasn't holding anything back before.  Really, the only surprises I get to provide are by building new courses that deserve to be mentioned.


Ian,

I did consider Highlands Links, in the twenty minutes I took to put together that second list.  I'd love to see it again now that you are working there; my one and only visit was hampered by temporary greens, mosquito attacks, and a bit of salmonella poisoning.  Yet I still considered including it as a favorite!!


Sean,

When I looked back over the first list, I noted the absence of heathland courses, even though I love the genre and have several favorites.  I guess the problem for me is that none of them stand out head and shoulders above the others with a great set of greens, apart from Woking which is quite short.  So, there are a bunch of 8's but not quite a 9 ... unless you count Royal Melbourne and Kingston Heath as "heathland", which they are very close to being.

[PThomas]

Tom - have their been any restorations/renovations that have been done which DRAMATICALLY changed your opinion of a course in a positive way?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom - have their been any restorations/renovations that have been done which DRAMATICALLY changed your opinion of a course in a positive way?

In some way, my opinions of courses are inclusive of potential restoration work; I assume when I go to see a course that, though some parts of the course may not be presented as they should be, that eventually they will get it right.  [That way I don't have to revise my opinion of courses all the time!]  So, for example, Pinehurst No. 2 was a 10 in my book, and when I went there two years ago I was very disappointed in what I saw, as I thought they were losing many of the great details of the design; the recent restoration looks like it will fix those things, but there's not much room to improve my rating of it.

The one restoration of which I'm proudest is Yeamans Hall.  When I first saw it, the greens were a complete mess, and it was impossible to rate the course highly since so much had been buried under topdressing and neglect.  But I noted that if the greens were fixed, it would be excellent, and was gratified that they asked us to perform that work.

Renovations are another story entirely.  The California Golf Club of San Francisco is the first example that comes to mind; it is a much better course today than the one I saw twenty years ago, thanks to significant changes.  I'm sure there are several others which warrant mention, but am not prepared to provide an exhaustive list at this moment.

[PThomas]

Tom - have their been any restorations/renovations that have been done which DRAMATICALLY changed your opinion of a course in a positive way?

In some way, my opinions of courses are inclusive of potential restoration work; I assume when I go to see a course that, though some parts of the course may not be presented as they should be, that eventually they will get it right.  [That way I don't have to revise my opinion of courses all the time!]  So, for example, Pinehurst No. 2 was a 10 in my book, and when I went there two years ago I was very disappointed in what I saw, as I thought they were losing many of the great details of the design; the recent restoration looks like it will fix those things, but there's not much room to improve my rating of it.

The one restoration of which I'm proudest is Yeamans Hall.  When I first saw it, the greens were a complete mess, and it was impossible to rate the course highly since so much had been buried under topdressing and neglect.  But I noted that if the greens were fixed, it would be excellent, and was gratified that they asked us to perform that work.

Renovations are another story entirely.  The California Golf Club of San Francisco is the first example that comes to mind; it is a much better course today than the one I saw twenty years ago, thanks to significant changes.  I'm sure there are several others which warrant mention, but am not prepared to provide an exhaustive list at this moment.

thanks Tom

hard for Pinehrust to get any better than a 10...unless you start giving out 10.1s, 10.2s, etc (i would probably have put a "roll you eyes" emoticon here but they dont work for me anymore on GCA!)

and if you ever would like to post a list of best renovations i and i'm sure many others would love to see it!

[JC Jones]

JC,

It's hard to provide surprises when I am already on the record as to my thoughts more than anyone here, and I wasn't holding anything back before.  Really, the only surprises I get to provide are by building new courses that deserve to be mentioned.

I agree, Tom.  I wasn't knocking you at all.  You've been quite generous with your opinions.  In fact, what applies to you applies to anyone here who has played a number of great courses.  They all come in within a few spots of each other and rarely do you get an outlier.

Probably because they are great courses.

[Jim Nugent]

Tom, you didn't put Old Mac on either list.  Is that maybe because you had to follow the CBM theme, as opposed to being given free reign to create what you would?

[Jim Franklin]

Tom -

I think Rock Creek needs to be higher on your list. :-)

[Bobby Jones]

Tough to pick 25.  Top 10 for me are pretty easy, then it gets a bit blurry.  And this list will most likely be MUCH different after I finally leave this contient for a golf trip to the other side of the Atlantic.

I've been stalking GCA for a couple years and i'm hopefully going to start joining some discussions.

1) Cypress Point
2) Merion
3) Pine Valley
4) Shinnecock
5) Chicago GC
6) NGLA
7) LACC
8.) Pacific Dunes
9) Prairie Dunes
10) Sand Hills
11) Riviera
12) Friars Head
13) Ballyneal
14) Pebble Beach GL
15) Whistling Straits
16) Maidstone
17) Seminole (want to see it again)
18) San Fran GC
19) Valley Club
20) Shoreacres
21) Sebonack
22) Rustic Canyon
23) Spyglass
24) Winged Foot
25) Kiawah Island (Ocean)

Honorable Mention: Medinah #3, Olympic (lake), Bandon Dunes, Diamante, Black Rock, The Preserve, MPCC Dunes

Courses i did not think were amazing that are considered to be good by the magazine raters: Butler Nat'l, Bayonne, Shadow Creek

Courses i can't wait to see: Oakmont, Old Mac, Rock Creek,  and everything on the other side of the atlantic.

Bobby J

[Tim Pitner]

There were actually several more it pained me to leave out, not least of them the two new ones at Streamsong.

Viral marketing, Tom?  That's a pretty strong statement re two unopened courses (as far as I know).  

[Tom_Doak]

There were actually several more it pained me to leave out, not least of them the two new ones at Streamsong.

Viral marketing, Tom?  That's a pretty strong statement re two unopened courses (as far as I know).  

Tim:

To be clear, I made that statement in reference to my list of 25 favorite courses, not the earlier list of 25 best courses.  But, there are nothing but excellent courses in both lists, so yes, it's a strong statement.  And I don't make those lightly. 

I've been going to Streamsong for more than a year now, and I am more and more certain each time that BOTH courses are going to be very special.  I hope others agree, once it opens.

[Carl Nichols]

The course on Tom's lists that most surprised me is Cuscowilla, not because it isn't perfectly good (IMHO it is very good), but because it doesn't seem as unique or quirky as others on his second list -- and because it's only one of 2 C&C courses on either list.  

[Tom_Doak]

Carl:

Two courses on my top 50 list is highly respectable ... how many architects have more than that?

I think Friars Head is Bill and Ben's second-best course, but couldn't quite put it in my top 25 overall; and for whatever reason it is not a special "favorite".  I might also rate Bandon Trails higher than Cuscowilla on a "best" list.  But, I had more fun playing Cuscowilla, and thought it added more diversity to my list.

[Carl Nichols]

Tom-
Understood. I was simply reacting to your seeming to have Cuscowilla as your #2 C&C course -- though it sounds like it's more like #4, if you were doing a straight ranking. (I get that the two lists aren't your straight-up top 50.)

What did you think of 14 at Cuscowilla?

[Andy Shulman]

Weighing in from DC with just a Top 20 since I'm not as well traveled as many of you and have little or no access to private clubs.  Half are from the US and half from the British Isles.

Europe: Ballybunion, Carnoustie, Elie, Kingsbarns, Lahinch, Lundin Links, North Berwick, Prestwick, St. Andrews (Old) and Waterville
USA: Bedford Springs, Beechtree (R.I.P.), Blackwolf Run (Original Championship Course), Golden Horseshoe (Gold), Lawsonia Links, Mountain Ridge, Pasatiempo, Taconic, Tobacco Road and Wild Horse

Top 5 (in order): 1. St. Andrews (Old) 2. North Berwick 3. Lahinch 4. Lawsonia Links 5. Bedford Springs

Up Next: Black Mesa, Old MacDonald and the other Bandon courses, Royal Dornoch and Brora.

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