[Jim_Kennedy]

There's also The Curragh Golf Club, the oldest golf course in Ireland.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Sunningdale wasn't the first great heathland course, that was either Woking or Huntercombe. The significance of Sunningdale in my eyes is that it was the first course where

a) The site was cleared to make room for golf.
b) The course was grown from seeds.

Ulrich

[Jim_Kennedy]

edit: same post as b) above

[Mac Plumart]

Man...This is awesome.  I want to respond to everyone, but I think that would make a mess of things.  I am reading, taking notes, and the like.  Great stuff.

Talk to me about the Heathlands.  My understanding is that people tried to set up golf courses away from the links, but were unsuccessful until Park (wasnt he they architect) has some success.  Sunningdale, Huntercombe, Woking have been mentioned.  

Park did Sunningdale and Huntercombe, right?

Who did Woking?

The significance of the Heathlands breakthrough was that it opened up peoples eyes and minds to the idea that golf could be played away from the links,  and Sunningdale brought in the idea that land could be clear and courses could be groomed right.

Wasn't Colt involved in this somewhere?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mac,
The work at Sunningdale also showed that you could produce something other than wet clay to play on away from the shore.

[Mac Plumart]

Jim...

Am I going to far saying the given all this Sunningdale is an historic course and representative of one of the first great non-links courses, the first great course groomed by an architect (cleared and grown from seed), but also the first make the land first the course?

I think Sunningdale just made my "must play" list.  Amazing history!

[DMoriarty]

I think Myopia, Chicago, and Garden City were all Landmark courses, but their influence was nothing like that of NGLA.   NGLA changed the entire approach to golf design across America.


The timeline of NGLA was misleading because they originally planned to use a local in instead of a clubhouse, but the Inn burnt to the ground.   The club was not officially open until a clubhouse could be built and opened in 1911.   But they were golfing in the course in 1909 and the first tournament was held in 1910.   

I'm doing this off the top of my head, but I believe the timeline for NGLA is something like this
1901 - Motivated by the best and most difficult holes discussion in Golf Illustrated, CBM came up with the idea for NGLA.
1902 - CBM traveled abroad to further study the great courses, with the idea of bringing them to the US.
1904 - The charter members agree to a general approach to creating the course.
        - Second study trip abroad.
        - Articles begin appearing nationwide about CBM's plan, and a debate/criticism begins in the British press about it.
1906 - Third study trip abroad. 
        - NGLA land secured (by option allowing for much flexibility in the exact final specifications) after Whigham and Macdonald ride the site and find a rough routing.  (This set the best practice for creating a golf course)
        - Planning completed and construction begins.
        - Discussion and debate continues.
1907 - Construction finishes and course seeded.
1908 - agronomy problems delay opening, some (all?) greens and turf reseeded .
        - Shinnecock Inn, which was going to be used in leau of a clubhouse, burns to the ground.
1909 - First play on the course, work and refinements continue.
1910 - Play continues, first tournament, work and refinements continue.
1911 - Clubhouse completed, and tournament held for the "official" grand opening of the Club.  CBM still reportedly tinkering well into the 1930s.

_______________________________________

When I look at the significance of these early courses, I try to put myself into the mindset of those there, and figure out what they thought was significant and try to look at the influence various courses had.    Myopia, Garden City, and Chicago were all considered good courses, for America.  But among those who knew both, they generally did not compare favorably to the great courses abroad.   NGLA did. 

[TEPaul]

"Per all of my research and study NGLA appears to me to be the historic landmark course in American architecture...but according to the records I've found its founding date was 1911."


Mac:

For starters, some of the dates we use can get misleading. Sometimes clubs use the date they were incorporated (as clubs) sometimes GCA analysts use dates when the design and construction begun, sometimes when it finished, and sometimes they use the dates when they opened for play. NGLA was incorporated in 1908, went into design and construction, there was some very limited play on it in 1909, and then in 1910 and it was formally opened for play in September 1911.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mac,
Yes, I think that's a fair assessment. The four guns of the day who started building in the Heathlands were 'architecting' up a storm out there. 

[Mac Plumart]

Sweet...thanks David.  

On point #2...did I type in spectacular golf?  I meant spectator golf.  Meaning people could come to watch a tournament.  This was also touched on by Morgan Clawson.  My bad on the typo!

Point #3...pebble beach first great monterray course.  I'm grasping at straws trying to figure out a way to make Pebble the first great course of something.  Wasn't it a ground breaking course for some reason?

Point #4---The Golf Club...didn't this introduce minimalism, during RTJ's maximism reign?  isn't that significant/revolutionary?  Wasn't it also Pete Dye's first great course?  Is that ground breaking in and of itself?

Like always, I am asking you guys for input.  I've read about these courses, played some of them, but I am not dead set on the fact the my opinion is correct...I am all ears!

[JNagle]

you can't put a list of revolutionary courses without including:

1) Harbour Town: counterpunch to RTJ style
2) Oakmont: ultimate penal course

Could it be said that the counterpunch to RTJ's work was being done by Dick Wilson.  He may not have that Revolutionary course (maybe Pinetree) but his work in that era was much stronger than the work of others with a foot in both the Golden Age and Modern design.

How about the work in 1988 by Rees at The Country Club.  It ushered in a new concept and a deeper appreciation for a Club's design history.

[Mac Plumart]

Tom Paul...

Thanks.  That type of stuff confused the hell out of me.  But if I study, read, and ask a bunch of questions I will get it all straight one day.

Another thing that you touched on with Myopia that confuses/gets me is the question of how much of the original course is still left.  

For instance, i am going to sea island to play Sea Side and Plantation.  Sea Side, known as a Colt/Allision was redone by Fazio (right).  But it is my understanding that Colt didn't do the work, it was Alison.  and how much of Alison is left after greens committes and Fazio finished their work, etc.

I guess diligence, research, and experience will be the only answer.

Another for instance on this last point...is that I've played East Lake, Inverness, and CC of Columbus...all Ross'.  But East Lakes greens are distinctly different that the other two.  I can only conclude that Rees Jones' influence on the greens and the fact that the Tour Championship is played their altered Ross' original thoguths.

[DMoriarty]

Sweet...thanks David.  

On point #2...did I type in spectacular golf?  I meant spectator golf.  Meaning people could come to watch a tournament.  This was also touched on by Morgan Clawson.  My bad on the typo!

Point #3...pebble beach first great monterray course.  I'm grasping at straws trying to figure out a way to make Pebble the first great course of something.  Wasn't it a ground breaking course for some reason?

Point #4---The Golf Club...didn't this introduce minimalism, during RTJ's maximism reign?  isn't that significant/revolutionary?  Wasn't it also Pete Dye's first great course?  Is that ground breaking in and of itself?

Like always, I am asking you guys for input.  I've read about these courses, played some of them, but I am not dead set on the fact the my opinion is correct...I am all ears!

Mac

I misread.  You did type spectator.   I didn't know that and am not sure I buy it.   But interesting.

I thought you might be grasping with Pebble Beach.  Maybe it should be first course where Watson defeats Nicklaus by holing brilliant pitch from high rough on par 3 17th?

You may be right about the Golf Club,  I just don't know that much about it and was curious.  Things get fuzzy for me when you get much past WWII.

[Mac Plumart]

you can't put a list of revolutionary courses without including:

1) Harbour Town: counterpunch to RTJ style
2) Oakmont: ultimate penal course

Could it be said that the counterpunch to RTJ's work was being done by Dick Wilson.  He may not have that Revolutionary course (maybe Pinetree) but his work in that era was much stronger than the work of others with a foot in both the Golden Age and Modern design.

How about the work in 1988 by Rees at The Country Club.  It ushered in a new concept and a deeper appreciation for a Club's design history.

Dick Wilson is a name that keeps popping up as I study.  Florida was his "domain" correct?  I will have to check it out.

Rees Jones and The Country Club...interesting.  I've heard glowingthings about his work on East Lake as well.  I will dig deeper into the Country Club.  Could Rees' work get artifically downgraded due to his fathers past work?  Hmmm....

[Ulrich Mayring]

Sunningdale wasn't the first inland course on sandy soil either, actually Horace Hutchinson wrote in 1899 that Richmond Club und Mid Surrey Club were on sandy soil, but he didn't make the connection to heathland. He thought that sand was deposited there by the river Thames.

The heathland belt around London was virtually unknown, because it was completely overgrown and of little use to anyone. To the best of my knowledge Willie Park Jr. was the first man to see the potential of these sites for golf courses if somehow they could be cleared (a hell of a project without machines) and some turf could be grown on the extremely sandy ground.

Ulrich

[TEPaul]

"Another thing that you touched on with Myopia that confuses/gets me is the question of how much of the original course is still left."


Mac:

With that kind of thing, it is sort of course by course. If you have one or some you're interested in really understanding what I call the entire design evolution history from beginning until to date you just have to find the people who know it best. This website should be a good resource to find out who you might need to go to. I have a few courses I know the entire design evolution of really well, obviously including my own. For something like Merion or Flynn courses, Wayne Morrison is your man. If you want to know about some of those mentioned on here like GCGC or particularly Myopia I can help you out. I'm actually looking at a design evolution report of sorts that was done in the last few weeks on Myopia. It doesn't go all the way back to 1894 or 1896 or 1900 but it explains quite a bit. That particular course is remarkably well preserved and they might be planning a few last restorative measures. Myopia is a very important early American architectural study laboratory for sure.

Dick Wilson was based in southeast Florida, at least in the end of his career, but he worked all over the country. He was probably RTJ's main competitor.

[Mac Plumart]

Tom...

I am VERY interested in that type of information on all of the courses you named, but for some reason I fell in love with Myopia Hunt just as soon as I began studying GCA.

What is the best way to communicate on these issues?

This spring I am heading up to play Yale and another course that my friend is surprising me with...he's hinted it is Shinnecock, but he won't tell me for sure.  Would it be possible to set up a time to chat over dinner or coffee or something like that? 

You mentioned the other day that you don't play much anymore, but I am sure you could join us for our rounds if you want to.

Let me know as I am extremely interested in learning these more in-depth pieces of information about these timeless gems.

Thanks!!!

[TEPaul]

"What is the best way to communicate on these issues?"


Mac:

Any way you want to---phone, email or even on here.

[Mac Plumart]

Tom...

Thanks!!!

I'm heading to bed soon...another hopping Friday night in GA!!!

I'll pop you an email tomorrow to get the knowledge rolling.

Thanks again, you've been great to me and I really appreciate it!!!

[Robin Doodson]

Mac,

i had the pleasure of playing Machrihanish Dunes a few weeks ago and IMHO it is  a truly revolutionary golf course. It is an absolute joy and could possibly be the worlds one and only truly sustainable golf course. This course goes beyond minimalism in not only it's design but also in it's maintenance. i really hope that people get to experience and understand what Southworth are trying to achieve there as everyone in the golf industry (especially GCA's) could learn an awful lot from it.

robin

[john_stiles]

One of, or the first ranked course I played, was the  Dunes  in Myrtle Beach.  I played there because of their hosting the PGA qualifying school.

Nevertheless,   it was an early RTJ post  WWII course, just after Peachtree,  but may have been one of the first to go down and through the southern marsh.   This was very much copied, IMO, in the southern USA but am not sure anyone has done it better than the 10th, 11th, 12th, and infamous 13th at The Dunes.   These are pretty much the template marsh holes in southern USA.

The 13th is almost what I call a 'double' cape hole.   It tempts you to drive close to the water on the right, and then cut off as much as you can,  for the shortest third shot.  Anyway,  I see the  Dunes as an influence on most of what was build in the southern USA, and followed later on undesirable marsh land.

This model (template) has sold so much real estate in the south and encouraged so many courses to be built, unbelievable.

Also,  as a mini build up to much of the modern courses,  I think the 10th at Wild Dunes and the entire Southern Dunes continued the surge from Harbour Town.

I guess in summary,  I see the Dunes as a prelude to much of the 1960s/1970s/1980s golf courses,  a few of which were very good.

[TEPaul]

"Could it be said that the counterpunch to RTJ's work was being done by Dick Wilson.  He may not have that Revolutionary course (maybe Pinetree) but his work in that era was much stronger than the work of others with a foot in both the Golden Age and Modern design.

How about the work in 1988 by Rees at The Country Club.  It ushered in a new concept and a deeper appreciation for a Club's design history."

Jim Wagner:

Both of those are thought provoking remarks. As mentioned above it has often been attributed to Pete Dye to have delivered the architectural counterpunch to RTJ with his revolutionary Harbor Town. It has been said and I believe confirmed by Pete that while driving by an RTJ course on his way to the beginning of the Harbor Town project the idea occured to him that he could actually do something in a far different direction and arguably Harbor Town was that.

Your second remark about Rees and Brookline is really interesting though. I think you have a very good point there but on that 1988 Brookline project we should not forget the excellent bunker development of TCC's superintendent!

(Yeah, I know you're Jimbo Nagle; just funnin' ya.)

PS:
On the other hand, Pete's father was a real fan of Dick Wilson and it has been said that Wilson was one of the reasons Pete's parents moved down to Southeast Florida thereby inspiring Pete to do the same where of course Pete and Alice have lived half of every year for many, many decades.

I actually remember Dick Wilson from the 1950s in Southeast Florida. With my dad and all his good playing golf buddies Dick Wilson was really their man----they got him to work on Seminole, Gulf Stream and they built Pine Tree with him----eg also Meadow Brook in Long Island. When he died in 1965 they didn't know who to turn to. At first they sort of looked to Wilson's associate Joe Lee but that didn't work as well. And then after a while who did they find in their midst----a young Pete and Alice Dye!

[TEPaul]

John Stiles:

UNBELIEVALBE!!

On your post above you mentioned a number of RTJ "Template" holes and of course that surely is true. Whenever we speak about "template" holes, at least in recent years, it seems like we are always talking about CBM and his "template" GB holes used over here on most of his and the National School courses.

But we sure can't forget RTJ's modus operandi or style or model or using the same basic string of "template" concepts over and over and over again----or even Pete Dye doing it so famously as he and others of his generation did with the big right to left sweeping finishing holes with water all down the left!

I hesitate to say this and by it I defnitely don't mean a reliance on "template" holes or even "template" concepts  or anything of the like (it was probably more of a contour line measuring device) but one time walking around a raw site with topos in our hands one of my favorite architects fished into his pocket and produced some par 4 and par 5 paper cut-out holes that actually had hinges on them!! 

[Mac Plumart]

Tom...

Reading this sites Sea Island thread from 2004 (I think it was) led me to believe that posting this type of information in the DG is the best way to get the ball rolling...

Can we start with Garden City?

What I see is that is was founded in 1899 and is an Emmett course.  If you could expound upon its formation, tweaks, changes, remodels, or rennovations over time...that would be great.

Also, the same for Myopia would be great.  I know Herbert Leeds was involved, but some of the dates are squirely.

Thanks for sharing!

[Mac Plumart]

Robin...

I am fascinated with Mach. Dunes.  You say self-sustaining.  Please excuse my ignorance, but could you please expound upon that?  I am of the belief that a course that is truly minimalist, needs to be minimalist in terms of upkeep and maintenance as well.  Could Mach. Dunes fit this bill.

Thanks,
Mac

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