[david h. carroll]

question: does one get relief from an old cup cutting in one's line?  I was told yes, but I've never researched it.

[SPNC_Chris]

question: does one get relief from an old cup cutting in one's line?  I was told yes, but I've never researched it.

I think it depends if it's filled in or not  

Ever play at a course that has two holes cut on each green and you're supposed to put the flag in the other hole for the following group? That's the only time I've ever taken relief from a hole-related spot on a green.

[JohnV]

question: does one get relief from an old cup cutting in one's line?  I was told yes, but I've never researched it.

No, you do not get relief, but you can repair the old hole plug.  Rule 16-1c says: The player may repair an old hole plug or damage to the green caused by the impact of a ball, whether or not the player's ball lies on the putting green. ... Any other damage to the putting green shall not be repaired if it might assist the player in his subsequent play of the hole.

[JohnV]

SPNC_Chris is correct that if there are two holes cut in the green, you do get relief from the second one because it is a "hole made by a greenkeeper" is automatically "ground under repair"  This means that if you are on the green and the other hole is in your line, you move the ball to the nearest point not nearer the hole that gives you line of putt relief and place the ball there, even if it is off the green.

[Darren_Kilfara]

For those of you who saw my post suggesting that the Rules of Golf are mean-spirited (in the long thread about Scorecards), this thread is full of the sort of stuff I mean. To insist upon the letter of the law in most forms of competition can make you a real schmuck. And it doesn't even have to be that blatant...

I was playing in an Open competition at Machrihanish this past Saturday, and one of my playing partners - a high-handicapper down from Glasgow for the weekend - hit his drive at the sixth, couldn't find the ball, decided (because he was off to a very poor start) that he was going to No-Return his scorecard and just dropped a ball near where he thought his ball had finished and played from there. No sooner had he done that, one of the guys in the group in front of us started walking back down the fairway and explained that he'd picked up my playing partner's ball. So my playing partner ignored the second ball he'd played, dropped the first one where it was, and continued his round from there. For much of the back nine, I was wondering whether or not I should suggest to my partner - who went on to play fairly well for the rest of the round - that he'd committed an infraction back on the sixth hole...because it was clear to me that "equity" in the rules of golf and "fairness" as applied to the situation were clearly not one and the same. In this situation, bearing in mind that it was a formal tournament round, what would you do?

Cheers,
Darren

[ChasLawler]

Darren - it's my opinion that if you didn't say anything right away - just let it go. That may be against the "rules", but is anyone really getting cheated in that situation?

[JakaB]

Darren,

It really is very simple just to tell the pro what happened after the round.  He will most likely ignore the situation and let the fellows score stand...either way the monkey is off of both of your backs.   A local pro will not make a difficult stand if asked descretely....as a matter of fact they will answer a question based solely on how you ask with little regard to how the rules apply.

[Jeff Fortson]

90 degree rule!  HAHAHAHAHA!

That is pure comedy.



another note.....

In match play if a competitor starts a hole from the wrong tee box or anywhere outside the teeing ground there is no penalty.  His opponent can opt to have him play the stroke over.  So, if the guy hits from the whites instead of the blues and hits it OB his opponent can force him to take the penalty.  If his opponent were to hit a glorious shot down the fairway he can opt to have him hit it over.  

I find this interesting since in stroke play if the guy hit from the wrong tee and caught his mistake before he teed off on the next hole he could go back and restart the hole with a 2 stroke penalty and if he didn't and contiued on into the next hole he'd be DQ'd.  It seems more harsh a penalty in stroke play.  At least in match play if you hit it good and the guy makes you hit it over you have a chance to hit it good again.

Jeff F.

[david h. carroll]

another one I find unfair:  ball is hit on line toward hazard, but hazard is blind from position ball is struck so can't see if ball directly entered hazard...can't find ball and therefore can't definitively say that it entered hazard although everyone knows that's where it is....back to the tee!!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

dcarroll,

I've seen the same circumstances, except they found the ball, and it was out of bounds.

I've also seen golfers declare that their ball entered a hazard at point X, only to find the ball, far removed, at point Y.

Everybody has an agenda, THE RULES DON'T.

[JohnV]

Jeff, even more interesting in match play is if the hits from the whites instead of the blues and knocks it OB, he isn't allowed to re-tee the ball.  Since he hit the shot from outside the teeing ground, he must drop a ball, not tee it up.  Of course, this would require a really nasty opponent to point it out to him.  It is things like this that make match play so much fun.

The reason the penalty has to harsher in stroke play is because the final score does count, not just if you win the hole.  In this case, there is no difference in hitting it from one inch in front of the tees than there is in picking up a one inch putt under the rules.  You have to play the course as it is defined.

Darren, how would you have felt if the guy who you saw violate the rule had won the competition?   What if one of the guys in that group in back of yours had noticed what he had done and come up after the round and said something to you about it?  How would you feel because you didn't say anything?  Remember that if he breaks a rule and you know it and don't do anything about it, you've also broken a rule.  And the penalty for that is DQ.

dcarroll, it all depends on what is around the hazard.  If there is just regular fairway or no other place for the ball to be lost, it is reasonable to assume it went in.  But, if there are trees there or OB or rough long enough for the ball to be lost in it, you can't make that assumption.

Frequently many of the reasons people have problems with the rules are really because the Committee in charge didn't do it's job.  For example, if I have 5 feet of deep rough and then a hazard, I would move the line for the hazard to the outside of the rough or get the superintendent to mow the heavy stuff down a little.  This way if the ball goes in there, it is in the hazard regardless of where it is.  Also, the player gets to drop in a better area.

[david h. carroll]

JohnV--I don't believe in the rules there is a clause for reasonable assumption....I just called it on myself a few weeks ago during a club champ match where the hazard was right next to 4 yds of rough and then fairway

[JohnV]

dcarroll,

Rule 26 says in part, "In order to treat the ball as lost in the hazard, there must be REASONABLE EVIDENCE that the ball lodged in it."

There is a decision, 26-1/1:

26-1/1  Meaning of "Reasonable Evidence" in Rule 26-1
The term "reasonable evidence" in Rule 26-1 is purposely and necessarily broad so as to permit sensible judgments to be reached on the basis of all the relevant circumstances of particular cases. As applied in this context, a player may not deem his ball lost in a water hazard simply because he thinks the ball may be in the hazard. The evidence must be preponderantly in favor of its being in the hazard. Otherwise, the ball must be considered lost outside the hazard and the player must proceed under Rule 27-1. Physical conditions in the area have a great deal to do with it. For example, if a water hazard is surrounded by a fairway on which a ball could hardly be lost, the existence of reasonable evidence that the ball is in the hazard would be more likely than if there was deep rough in the area. Observing a ball splash in a water hazard would not necessarily provide reasonable evidence as splashing balls sometimes skip out of hazards. It would depend on all the circumstances.

At numerous PGA/USGA Rules of Golf Workshops, the question has been asked, "How sure do you have to be?"  The answer is consistently given as 98% or if it could be anywhere else it is a lost ball.

The reason for this is that you get a big break for a ball in a water hazard vs a lost ball and the powers that be believe you need to be truely deserving of this break.

And yes, Shivas, I know that preponderence means 51% in the law, but the USGA & R&A don't interpret it that way and will tell you that anytime you ask them.

[david h. carroll]

JohnV--thanks for the clarification...luckily I went on to win my match or I'd really be kicking myslef over that one!!

[Martin Del Vecchio]

My favorite is the following:

1)  Hit your tee shot.
2)  Look for it, but don't find it.
3)  Back to the tee, hit another (now lying 3).
4)  Play the next shot (now lying 4).
5)  Find original ball.  "Hey, I hit it farther than I thought!"
6)  Hit original ball (now lying 2).
7)  Pick up other ball.

[A_Clay_Man]

JohnV- In Darren's situation since the players ball was picked up, didn't he act properly by dropping near the point he felt the ball should've been. Had he seen the guy pick it up he'd have had reasonable evidence. Whats the procedure? and, if his taking a drop was proper, did going back and re-dropping his original, a violation?

Darren- See, the rules are such that if you don't follow them you look like a bigger schmuck. And putting someone in a position of not calling a penalty on their best friend, is mean spirited and has no consideration of others. Read Section one in the rulebook and if you still feel they are "mean spirited" please quantify, where?  Honor not withstanding, you want to be that Jerk, or at least pass on the sentiment of protecting the field, whenever possible.

  At an open in the holyland, sheesh !

[ChasLawler]

John - what if you wrongly assume that the ball went in the hazard?

This spring I was playing in a two-man best ball match play event. On the 5th hole I hit my ball right of the fairway in the direction of a creek which runs the entire length of the hole. Further right of the creek are a thin strand of trees. After looking for my ball for 5 minutes, everyone (including the opposing team) agreed the ball must have gone into the creek. I was allowed a drop and went on to halve the hole with my bogey (my partner was having problems of his own)

After hitting our tee shots on the next hole, which runs parallel to the previous in the opposite direction, one of our opponents came upon my "lost" ball from the previous hole. It had apparently caromed 50 yards further right of the creek where we had centered our search. After a fair amount of tense deliberation, my partner and I agreed to concede the previous hole.

How many, if any, rules did we break?

[ChipOat]

I'm in a regular group of 16-20 guys here in the US of A where we mostly play by the rules but sometimes not.  Don't ask me when we don't - it depends.  The money circulates around during the year and we all have fun.  Occasionally a "liberty taken" will be loudly ridculed at the bar afterwards and that takes care of it.  Intentional violations are otherwise harmless.  Only exception to this is for club championship qualifying when rules are only broken out of ignorance.

In Scotland, I once gave myself a 1/4" putt in a club Stableford competiton.  Scot playing partner/fellow competitor noted that I had not holed out and my score for the hole was "minus points" instead of "plus points" for par.

I never did that again in the U.K.  Upon telling the story to my 16-20 USA mates described above, they were anywhere from sympathetic to scornful ("this isn't the US Open, etc.").

When in Rome....

[Michael Moore]

Practice putts in stroke play -- 95% of my rounds, somebody does it sooner or later.  Usually while pissed off.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it completely within the rules to practice putting and chipping (without undue delay) on the green of the hole you just played, whether the competition be stroke play or match play?

I think this is misunderstood because perhaps the PGA Tour prohibits it in the conditions of competition but you see it all the time during the Ryder Cup.

Thoughts on this rule, its application, its nullification? Seems weird to allow practicing during a round.

[Garland Bayley]

Michael,

You are correct. And, yes the PGA tour prohibits it. The USGA allows it, so every open they spend all their time answering phones from people reporting the rules violation they saw on tv.

[TEPaul]

" The USGA allows it,"


It all depends on the particular competition. A "tournament committee" can allow it or prohibit it by the adoption of a Local Rule that must be part of the "Conditions of Competition."  All competitors need to familiarize themselves with the particular "Conditions of Competition" of any tournament or they may make an unintentional mistake and get penalized. Obvoiusly TV viewers have not read the "Conditions of Competition" of any tournament they may be watching.

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