[Garland Bayley]

Why is it that a pricing system that has a relationship to the use of something is so totally unacceptable?...

Um, because walkers don't use the trails (cart paths).

[Sean_A]

Am I missing something.  Don't the guys who use the club the most essentially subsidize the one who use it least?  Someone has to pay the staff so someone has to spend money at the club or there would be less services or higher dues/minimums.  To suggest that the guys who use it more should pay more is correct - they do pay more, but thank goodness these sorts of members exist.

I can't get my head round mandatory cart/caddie/walking fee.  If a club is struggling to survive without these extras then something is wrong.  I would think fixing the problem is better than creating mandatory usage of equipment at an extra charge.

Ciao 

[Scott Coan]

Man, 10 years since I moved out of the States and my country club but this sounds like the whole "user fees" government thing gone mad.  We haven't raised your taxes, we are just charging you user fees!  In a way I can understand the concept; the joker that plays 18 holes every day takes a heck of lot more divots than the guy that plays once a month.  Kind of throws the private club privilege on it's head however - too much of a daily fee type thing for me.

US clubs could learn a lot from how they do it in NZ.  How many greens staff are on the books at your Clubs?  My adopted course (Paraparaumu Beach) is open for play 12 months a year and gets by on 5 full time greens staff.  That's right FIVE.  We don't have pristine conditions but it is a damn fine course and the conditions are still bloody good. 

[Carl Nichols]

Carl,
Just the opposite is true about cart ownership. In the majority of cases the Pro gets a small piece of the cart, but along with that comes the day-to-day responsibility of managing the fleet. If you don't give him the small piece for looking after the fleet you'd have to give it to someone.

When your club charges you a trail fee it's mainly because they are looking for the revenue and they are paying for an amenity or amenities that benefit all the members, so everyone pays something.

Jim:
I suspect you have a better sense of the prevailing type of arrangement than I do, but it seems that at the few places where I have a pretty good sense of their arrangement with the pro, they have something along the lines of what I describe -- though several of them are moving away from the independent contractor model to the employee model. 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Carl,
Of course, what you see still exists, I only meant that it's maybe 25% or less of present day arrangements, of which there are a lot more variables than ever before.

Garland,
Some of those walkers might never use the range, but they may be paying for it, so can you reasonably blame the range rat who hits 1,000 balls a day? I don't think it works that way, seeing as how there is a long list of amenities that a 'Club' provides for it's members.
The club knows 'exactly' how much it pays to lease the fleet and the staff that manages it, the cost of insuring and fueling it, and the cost of maintaining the necessary buildings to house it and paths to drive on.
Somewhere, in some part of this club's overall operation (not neccessarilly the golf carts), the business manager was either experiencing a shortfall or saw one coming, and the board decided that the most equitable place to grab a buck or two was from the walkers.
Happens all the time.

So I say, down with these socialist golf clubs and up with a more democratic model!  Give me access and give me nothing else! I'll gladly pay a few bucks for a round or a cart or a locker or a sandwich or a shoe shine or a swim or a game of tennis or croquet or Bocce(NJ clubs)  or storing my clubs or parking my car. I want a drop-down menu where I can choose what I want democratically, I don't want to be continually paying for the amenities you like that I never use. Which makes me wonder why I joined this damn club in the first place. 


 

[Bruce Wellmon]

I'm really surprised how common this appears to be. It's just wrong.

Dining? There is a Club 30 miinutes from me that is a dining club. No golf, no tennis.They do have banquet facilities, etc.  You pay dues for the opportunity to go eat there. And then you pay for your meal.
We are not members.

[Brent Hutto]

It's just wrong.

Well jeez, man. If I were you I wouldn't join such a club. Playing golf isn't worth risking eternal damnation.

[Carl Nichols]

Bruce:
What if you think about the trail fee as simply a surcharge for playing at the most popular time (i.e., weekends)?  Practically every public course charges more to play on weekends.  At a private club, you could view it as sort of like congestion pricing, which is pretty common (e.g., toll roads and certain airport landing fees). 

[Bruce Wellmon]

Carl,
      I like that. First off tee time is worth is weight in gold.

[ChipRoyce]

I see this as an indication that the cost structure for the club is out of whack and needs to be addressed at the budgetary / governance level.

To surcharge members because cart revenues are not coming in where it needs to be, just shows that they have too many carts, don't charge the right fee for a cart (too high/too low) and/or an artificial dependence on cart revenue to subsidize other operations.

At private club, carts should only exist only as a service to the members. The club should only have as many carts as needed for regular play and/or to support outing revenues.

In order to fix this, go back to the board / general manager and find out where the expenses broken? Ultimately either dues need to be raised or expenses cut to avoid this kind of reliance.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Garland,
Some of those walkers might never use the range, but they may be paying for it, so can you reasonably blame the range rat who hits 1,000 balls a day? I don't think it works that way, seeing as how there is a long list of amenities that a 'Club' provides for it's members.
The club knows 'exactly' how much it pays to lease the fleet and the staff that manages it, the cost of insuring and fueling it, and the cost of maintaining the necessary buildings to house it and paths to drive on.
Somewhere, in some part of this club's overall operation (not neccessarilly the golf carts), the business manager was either experiencing a shortfall or saw one coming, and the board decided that the most equitable place to grab a buck or two was from the walkers.
Happens all the time.
...

Not sure why you are taking issue with anything I wrote. Bruce says they are charging a "trail fee". Either they know what they are doing, and are charging walkers for the trails (as one would surmise from the name of the fee), because there is a shortfall in "trail" revenue, or they don't know what they are doing and have attached a convenient name to a fee on walkers. If the fee is only on walkers, then it is not "equitable". if they need a weekend surcharge, they should charge all golfers for using the course at prime weekend use, and call it what it is, a weekend surcharge.

[Garland Bayley]

Bruce:
What if you think about the trail fee as simply a surcharge for playing at the most popular time (i.e., weekends)?  Practically every public course charges more to play on weekends.  At a private club, you could view it as sort of like congestion pricing, which is pretty common (e.g., toll roads and certain airport landing fees). 

Because it is a fee on walkers! Your public course does not raise it's weekend rate for walkers only.

[C. Squier]

Garland, for your theory to hold weight, it assumes that any cart fees cover ONLY the expense of the carts and not one penny is additional unmatched revenue.  If cart users indeed pay in addition to the cart expense, it is walkers who have gotten away with a lower price for years. 

CPS

[Jim_Kennedy]

Garland,
I'm sorry you take it as my seeing an issue with what you wrote, but I don't, so you are creating that scenario for no good reason.

All clubs have fees that, as you wrote about this one, are "inequitable". What's even more bizarre is that no one even knows why the club in question needed to raise fees, they 've just assumed, as you did, that because it's labeled a 'trail fee' it has something to do with carts. That's just an assumption.

The superintendent may have asked for a raise and this was the easiest way to raise the funds to pay him. The manager looks at the tee sheets, sees the number of rounds played w/out carts, and basically assesses that group $1.50, which in turn pays the super.

I'm not saying there isn't a better way to do it, or that it sounds good, just that things get done like this at times.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland, for your theory to hold weight, it assumes that any cart fees cover ONLY the expense of the carts and not one penny is additional unmatched revenue.  If cart users indeed pay in addition to the cart expense, it is walkers who have gotten away with a lower price for years. 

CPS

For my theory to hold weight, it assumes competent accounting and management. I know that is a stretch.

However, it is my experience that it is the cart-ballers that have gotten away with inequitable prices for years. They have taken advantage of their majority status to do so. What percentage of clubs in the US do you think the walkers hold a majority in Clint?

[Garland Bayley]

...
All clubs have fees that, as you wrote about this one, are "inequitable". What's even more bizarre is that no one even knows why the club in question needed to raise fees, they 've just assumed, as you did, that because it's labeled a 'trail fee' it has something to do with carts. That's just an assumption.
...

I didn't necessarily assume it had anything to do with carts. I put forth two scenarios. 1. They knew what they were doing and assessed a cart-baller fee (after all that is what a trail fee is) to walkers for some strange reason, which I see as inequitable. 2. They needed more money and tacked an inappropriate name to a fee assessed to walkers.

I actually assume they did #2. Given that clubs vary greatly in the competence of their boards from election to election, I assume they were just too lazy to adjust the fees and names of fees appropriately.

[Roger Wolfe]

The perfect scenario... one I recommended but was thrown out for being a little too outside the box.

Make the cart fee zero.  We all agree that most clubs cannot survive without having golf carts (seniors,
outings, tournaments, injuries, obesity, etc...).  Why are we so obsessed with charging to use one.  Why
don't we all just incorporate it into the dues structure and call it an operating expense?

The "cart fee charge" is obsolete... most likely started in the days where the head pro owned the cart
concession.  I noticed an earlier thread that said some clubs are moving away from this... quite frankly
I have not seen this situation in anywhere in the last 15 years.

Roll the cart lease into the dues then just charge accordingly.  Our club is becoming a walkers' club...
something we encourage in the spirit of the game.  A $20 dues increase for everyone would allow us
to overcome the annual cart revenue once and for all.  Instead of hurting the "walking movement" I
think it would help.  Your decision to walk or ride would be based solely on how you felt that day...
period.  There would be zero restrictions on weekends... no "cart fee administration" in the pro shop...
a stable, reliable budget based on the number of memberships.  You could play nine then grab a cart
if you felt tired.

We have already eliminated the "cart fee" from our guest fees.  When I ran a public course it was the
same price whether you rode or walked.  I think the free cart fee is the future of our industry... not
the "walkers fee."  Anything you do to punish the heavy users of your facility is a bad thing... service charges
on food... cart fees... trail fees.  The additional fees simply give your members another reason NOT to
come out and enjoy the club.

[Garland Bayley]

...I think the free cart fee is the future of our industry... not
the "walkers fee."  Anything you do to punish the heavy users of your facility is a bad thing... service charges
on food... cart fees... trail fees.  The additional fees simply give your members another reason NOT to
come out and enjoy the club.

Do you realize how many golfers silently boycott golf courses where the "cart is free"?
 

[JMEvensky]

The perfect scenario... one I recommended but was thrown out for being a little too outside the box.

Make the cart fee zero.  We all agree that most clubs cannot survive without having golf carts (seniors,
outings, tournaments, injuries, obesity, etc...).  Why are we so obsessed with charging to use one.  Why
don't we all just incorporate it into the dues structure and call it an operating expense?

We tried as well.

Our fear was that the members on the very bottom of the usage scale would do some math and realize just how much more expensive each of their rounds would be.Of course,the guys who rent 7 carts per week thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Bigger picture,as others have said,I think the days of usage fees at private clubs is over.There just aren't the opportunities to "nickel and dime" the membership.

I think the dues line is going to have to cover the nut.It may get ugly.

[Carl Nichols]

Bruce:
What if you think about the trail fee as simply a surcharge for playing at the most popular time (i.e., weekends)?  Practically every public course charges more to play on weekends.  At a private club, you could view it as sort of like congestion pricing, which is pretty common (e.g., toll roads and certain airport landing fees). 

Because it is a fee on walkers! Your public course does not raise it's weekend rate for walkers only.

I'll preface this by saying I'm not a huge fan of trail fees, but at private clubs, you can view it as a fee that applies to everyone who plays on a weekend morning, loosely calibrated to account for the cost to the club of your choice -- $7 to walk, $20 to ride, or $25 for a caddie. 

[Carl Nichols]

Our fear was that the members on the very bottom of the usage scale would do some math and realize just how much more expensive each of their rounds would be.Of course,the guys who rent 7 carts per week thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread.

This is the same type of math that goes into every significant change at a club, like any major capital improvement.  We're in the process of upgrading our tennis facilities and, wouldn't you know it, the people who play a lot of tennis supported the improvements, while the non-tennis players were less supportive.  The cart fee/dues issue is sufficiently hot button (as this thread demonstrates) that I can see how it's very hard to make a change. 

We're in the process of moving toward the head-pro-as-employee model, and thus the cart revenue will go to the Club rather than the pro, but I doubt that we'll also move away from cart fees. 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Roger's point was correct.

If a club leases 40 carts for a 10 month season it's going to cost them about $70.00 per month, less fuel, ins., etc.., but let's round it up to $1,000 per cart per season, or 40k. Divide that by 10 months, and it's 4k per month, or 133.33 a day. If there are as many riders as some people say then that number should be a piece of cake for most clubs to handle.

Cart Assessment
134 members - $1.00 each per day during the season
268     "        -     .50  "

Giving the carts away should be a no-brainer at a private club, even in a 6 month season.   

[JMEvensky]

Carl,I understand your tennis scenario and feel your pain.

I agree with the "math calculation" for members--it rarely makes them feel good.

[Carl Nichols]

Roger's point was correct.

If a club leases 40 carts for a 10 month season it's going to cost them about $70.00 per month, less fuel, ins., etc.., but let's round it up to $1,000 per cart per season, or 40k. Divide that by 10 months, and it's 4k per month, or 133.33 a day. If there are as many riders as some people say then that number should be a piece of cake for most clubs to handle.

Cart Assessment
134 members - $1.00 each per day during the season
268     "        -     .50  "

Giving the carts away should be a no-brainer at a private club, even in a 6 month season.   

Jim:
The problem, I think, is that places with carts already make significantly more revenue than this from carts, whether the revenue goes to the pro (reducing the amount the club has to play the pro) or straight to the club.  It's this lost revenue (not the cost of the carts) that clubs would have to replace through dues, unless there's another source of revenue available. 

[Roger Wolfe]

...I think the free cart fee is the future of our industry... not
the "walkers fee."  Anything you do to punish the heavy users of your facility is a bad thing... service charges
on food... cart fees... trail fees.  The additional fees simply give your members another reason NOT to
come out and enjoy the club.

Do you realize how many golfers silently boycott golf courses where the "cart is free"?
 

The problem is that the "CART FEE" exists or existed in the first place.  You open a NEW club and tell everyone carts are included... there will be absolutely no fuss.  Noone will ever notice.  Don't you think?

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