[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Just watched a little of the Heritage.  

Where do most people place Harbour Town among Dye's courses?

It is one of my favourite Dye Course's, certainly among one of his most minimalist designs.

Why it not fared better in rankings?  What weaknesses others find with the course?

[Chris_Hunt]

I can't claim to have seen most of Dye's work, but Harbour Town to me cannot be in his top five courses.  Having only walked it, the course surprised me in several ways. 1)The housing is very close to the course, and fairly 70's-ish and it detracts from the $275 round...2) The lighthouse is best viewed from television..and 3) Although subtle and Raynor-esque in shaping at times, I found the course was only a shotmaker's course in that the wrong side of the fairway left a tree-obstructed attempt to the greens.

Favorite features for me include the 9th green complex, fronted by a bulkheaded cross bunker with a U-shaped green with a few bunkers in the cleave, seen below from behind.


But bunkering like that little pot behind the 14th green (another diagonal carry par-3 over water), and the greenside freeway job at 18 leave me feeling that the course has too many out-of-place quirks (and I like quirkiness) to be considered as special as some make it out to be.



plus the aforementioned price tag.  I much prefer the likes of Long Cove, where more dirt may have been pushed and there is a bit more action and width.

[jim_lewis]

Ben:

GOLFWEEK ranks Harbour Town #17 among America's Best Modern courses. That's pretty darn good considering that 5 of the 16 courses ranked ahead of it are also Dye courses. They are: Whistling Straits #3, Pete Dye Golf Club #5, The Honors Course #6, The Golf Club #9, and TPC at Sawgrass #14.  I have no arguement with that list or that order except that I might put Harbour Town ahead (or at least equal to) of The Stadium course.

[Robert_Walker]

Jack Nicklaus lists Harbour Town on his resume.

[APBernstein]

I am not an expert on Dye courses, to say the least.

That being said, I have played Harbour Town, as well as Pete Dye Golf Club and The Ocean Course.  I would place both those above it, rankings-wise, with The Ocean Course above all.

I found Harbour Town to be too cramped by trees (as well as condos).  I realize that it was revolutionary in its time with the small greens, but today, the trees have overgrown the course.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Andrew,
I assume you have played it since some of the trees have been cleared out?  

Jim,
I agree with you that the 17th position is favourable and while I would place HT and Blackwolf Run above TPC.  They are not the rankings I was referring to.

Though, it raises a good question as to what would the top five Dye courses in many eyes.  I have not played The Golf Club or Honors to comment on those.

Harbour Town is still very relevant to me, a great course, beautiful setting and a good mix of holes.  That said, the lack of balance in the par threes might hurt it overall.  I like all threes a lot, especially when the tees are staggered to give a little more variety.

[ChipOat]

Harbour Town was in my top 5 for years.  As a huge Pete Dye fan, I still loved it 2 years ago even with the condo factor (which bothers me less than it does others).  Perhaps it's sentimental but I rank it just behind TPC and right there with The Golf Club, Teeth of the Dog and the Ocean Course in terms of pure strategic shot values.

Hubert Green had a great line about HT when he first saw it and the signature railroad ties:
"this is the only golf course I've ever seen that could burn down".

[Robert_Walker]

That's weird that Hubert Green would have said that. Was he not paying attention when he was working at Merion?

[APBernstein]

Ben:

I played it last summer.  Whether that was before or after tree clearning, I'm not sure.

I know many point to the trees at Harbour Town as a strategic element.  I can agree with that premise in moderation, but this is the only course that I know of where the blimp shots are sometimes totally obscured.  The trees are everywhere, and tight to most every shot.

Overall, I find The Ocean Course to be a far superior course, in all respects.  I played a Beaufort/Hilton Head 36 with Chechessee Creek in the morning and Harbour Town in the afternoon...I found Chechessee to be the equal of Harbour Town, if not better.

All the best,

[Robert_Walker]

Today, they talked about the tradition of the HERITAGE.
Next week, they will talk about the heritage of the TRADITION.

[Mike_Cirba]

Is it me?  Although I've played the latter and not the former, the view of Harbour Town on TV seems to remind me sooo much of Michael Strantz's Caledonia in Myrtle Beach.  Granted, HT was built before Caledonia, so any plagiarstic comparison does not negatively reflect on the Dye/Nicklaus effort.

Andrew; having played both, are they as similar as they appear?

That being said, HT does seem to be seriously tree-impinged.  Also, the par threes seem to be remarkably similar in style and club selection.  So, although it was pretty revolutionary in style when it was built, I wonder if it should be held up as a model going forward?

[Brad Klein]

Having played about three dozen Pete Dye courses, I'd happily place Harbour Town in the top 3-4, not least because of what a revolution it was in 1970. Nicklaus made a few visits, but there's actually a lot of Alice Dye in there, including the 13th hole, whose green is her design.

Small, simple greens. There appears to be nothing to this golf course, esp. since it starts disarmingly and doesn't really get going until the 8th tee. Then all hell breaks looose slowly, and it has about the best six finishing hoes in all of golf, though I do think Dye got carried away with those deep asshole pot bunkers on 14 (back), 17 (right side) and 18 (rear).

Condos only impinge on 18 - I know, having knocked a window real hard owing to a cross-wind and serious bail-out on a tee shot there last month. But the sequence coming in is amazing.

Yeah it's overgrown. But that creates the angles of approach off tees and into greens. The bigger issue is that the course is wildly overplayed - about 60,000 rounds annually. And overpriced. Even with the tree trimming a year ago, it needs some pruning. But I'll take its angles anyday, and still think it amazingly strong for its strategy.

The next day I played Chechessee and was stunned by how repetitive its greens were by comparison. The pros happen to love Harbour Town, too. Takes brains and shot-making, which are both in much demand on Tour these days.

[Will E]

Ben,
You make a great point in claiming Harbour Town as one of Pete Dye's best minimalist courses. The detail that is shown in this design (similar to what's found at Teeth of the Dog) is why I think Dye's best work is among the best of all time. There really is a great contrast in his work here and at Teeth of the Dog in comparison to the Ocean Course and La Romana in the Dominican. I like both styles and it shows the range that Dye has, I think many more architects could learn a lesson from studying Dye's work. When I hear someone claim that all of Dye's work is similar I really don't get it, he has tremendous range.

Brad,
I'm surprized that you didn't like Chechesse more. I've only played it once and didn't find the repetitiveness you desciribe. I think I know what you're getting at regarding the greens, but I thought it worked very well. How did you find the rest of the course?
I'm also surprized that 129 is leading at Harbour Town, it is no easy course for sure.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Brad,
Excellent points.  I have played less Dye than you, so I was looking for someone to balance my comments.

Shooter,
Of the 15 or so Dye courses I have played Harbour Town is no doubt among the best.  You make a good point about his range - the Ocean Course, Harbour Town, Blackwolf Run, Whistling Straits and PGA West - if that is not range, I don’t know what is.

Personally, I like it as much (or more) than the Ocean Course.  There is more demand on shotmaking and more strategy.  Also, I think that Harbour Town's great holes are better than Kiawah's.

[TEPaul]

Certainly Harbor Town is a shotmakers course but why do some say it's not strategic? Can't "strategy" be as much considerations of distance related decision making off the tee, for instance, as direction related decisions? Sure it's narrow in places with angles created by the trees but that's also the directional and angle related strategy of the course, correct?

It seemed like I just witnessed some pretty strategic play from the last groups today and certainly including Mickelson who used a lot of 2 irons on the back nine for position and angle. Others got in trouble and out of angle, paying a price by not being quite so judicious or not executing so well. That seems a pretty good test of strategy to me.

I know trees are never very popular on here but Harbor Town was designed with trees used as a strategic feature in certain spots and I can't see anything wrong with that. If Dye intended to use trees to create angles on certain holes, so be it, William Flynn, for one would have agreed with him.

[Paul Richards]

Ben:

Whistling Straights (Straights), Blackwolf Run (River), TPC Sawgrass, Harbour Town, Pete Dye GC, the Ocean Course are my personal Dye favorites in order.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Paul,
I have played all of those and generally agree, except I would put PDGC, Harbour Town and TPC in that order instead.

What a great list of courses.  Does Honors not make it into that list?

Ben

[Will E]

Ben
1. Teeth of the Dog
2. TPC Sawgrass
T3. The Ocean Course
T3. PGA West
T3.Harbour Town
T3.Blackwolf Run (tournament)
7. Whistling Straits
8. La Romana
9. La Quinta Mt.
T10 Long Cove
T10 La Quinta Citrus
T10 Old Marsh

rained out at  The Golf Club in September, haven't played PDGC,  Honors, or Crooked Stick (yet!)

What do you think of the work PB has done on his own and with Pete?

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Shooter,
I have not played Teeth (nor Honors or The Golf Club), so I cannot comment on those.  I do disagree with you though, Whistling Straits is the best of Dye's work I have seen.  I do not feel PGA West is on the same level (though I do love that course).

As for the work PB has done on his own, I have not seen any of it.  Though the reports here have been more favourable than not for his course in Maryland.  Pictures seem to suggest he has drawn from the extremes of Pete's work.

[Chris_Clouser]

Living in the Indy area, I have played a few Dye courses, but I haven't played any others outside of Indy.  So my exposure is limited to what he did here.  Crooked Stick is a fine course but is overrated by many people.  I have played it a few times and though it is always enjoyable it isn't in the caliber of courses like Casa and Kiawah from what I gather from people on this site.  He did many courses in the Indy area that really are nice public sites.  Eagle Creek is the best of the bunch though and really I think holds its own against Crooked Stick.  Plum Creek is a distant third in my book.  But like I've said before I haven't played the Fort since his work there.  I am waiting to get to play the renovation work at the Woodland CC in Carmel that was a former Bill Diddel design.

[Paul Richards]

Ben:

If I modify my list to include foreign Dye courses, I would add
Casa de Campo;

1. Whistling Straights (Straights)
2. Teeth of the Dog
3. Blackwolf Run - River
4. TPC Sawgrass
5. Harbour Town
6. Pete Dye GC
7. The Ocean Course
8. The Honors Course
9. Long Cove
10. Crooked Stick
11. PGA West - Stadium

[Will E]

Chris,
What do you think of Brickyard Crossing?

Ben,
Your comments regarding PB's work are right on. However, if you think PB can overdo it (and you want to see more extreme work), you should check out what Darwin Sharpe has created in Estero, Fl.. Darwin used to build for PB.

I wonder how much influence Alice Dye has had in the courses we've mentioned.

I'm not sure what to think about Whistling Straits. I've played it three times now and haven't gotten a great feel for the place. My summer plans have me up there a lot, I'm looking forward to seeing the Irish and getting a better feel for the Straits. I know that a lot of work has been done on the Straits this last year getting the course ready for the PGA in 2004. From what I understand most of the work has consisted of "pinching" the fairways from 300 to 340 out from the tees. I also think that the 12th green has been altered.

If your plans see you coming out this way in the summer let me know.

[Paul Richards]

Shooter:

I didn't personally think much about Brickyard Crossing.  It has to have just about the worst ambiance around it, except
for the part where you play inside the racetrack, which is
cool.  It's about a 3 on the Doak scale.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Shooter,
Sounds like a course I played near Banff Springs this past fall called Silvertip, at least they bill themselves as "Extreme Golf".  

As for the work at Whistling Straits, I am excited about seen the changes, though your comments on the 12th green worry me a little, I always liked that one.

I will be coming to Kohler/Milwaukee/Chicago at some point in late Aug, early Sept.  Would look forward to a game.

Paul,
You have seen the changes at WS, haven't you?  Can you elabourate on the changes to the 12th?

[SGD]

Best Pete Dye courses?

Easy:

(1)  Domestic - The Golf Club.  Pete did exactly what its founder Fred Jones wanted: "it looks likes its been there forever".  TGC would be higher up all the lists if (a) it ever held a tournament (which the Club By-Laws expressly prohibit) and (b) they would let more people play it (only 240 members and no access for anybody but their guests).  It's wonderful.

(2)  International - Teeth of the Dog.  Haven't seen it since the airstrip was removed.  The ocean holes are all-world (5 is the all time sphincter shot), but 18 of the inland holes would be a great course on their own.

What makes these two courses so great is that nothing is "forced".  I love Pete's work, but sometimes I feel he tries to go over the top.  Not TGC or Casa de Campo, they both unfold so naturally; they flow so inevitably.

One more thought, I never had the chance to play it, but knowledgeable friends say the ORIGINAL Harbour Town (within three years of its opening) was awesome.  Can anybody compare the original to what is in play today?  Was there really that much difference?

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