[JSlonis]

Dr. MacKenzie's previously unbuilt prize winning hole for Lido, has been created by Steven Kay at a new unique course in Egg Harbor Twp, NJ.

Check out the article "McCullough's Emerald Links.." at http:/www.philgolfmag.com

I spoke to Steven Kay breifly this weekend at a tourney at Blue Heron Pines about the new course and in particular, the MacKenzie hole. He said it was by far the largest single hole he has built, it takes up about 20 acres and the fairway at its widest point is 159 yards wide.

He said the entire site for the new course offers quite a bit of elevation change due to the large amounts of topfill he needed to cover the landfill.

I'm sure the local GCAer's will be making a field trip this summer.

[JSlonis]

http://http:/www.philgolfmag.com

[JSlonis]

Sorry for the link problem...let's try...

http://http:/philgolfmag.com

[John_McMillan]

It would be great to see any recreation of Mackenzie's magazine hole, but ... it has had a previous life.  The hole was built as the 18'th of the no longer existing Lido course in Long Island.  The hole was designed specifically for the magazine contest, and later cribbed for the Lido course.

[TEPaul]

I've always heard that it was spelled out in the magazine contest that the winner of the magazine contest would have his winning hole built at the Lido. I thought that's what first prize was, in other words. And MacKenzie won the contest. MacDonald was also the judge of the contest or one of them so it would seem to make sense that it was built at the Lido.

A 159yd wide fairway, huh? I love it! I thought my idea for that enormous hole idea at Ardrossan Farm at about 135yds was the widest fairway I'd ever heard of but Kay beat that! Not quite though because the enormous Ardrossan hole would have melded together the far right side farther down the hole with fairway through a valley of the par 3 routed at about 80 degrees to the right. So with that rightside meld over to the far left side of the enormous Ardrossan hole would have been about 225yds of continous fairway!

[John_McMillan]

TEP -

From Doak's Mackenzie biography -

"In the spring of 1914, the London periodical Country Life, whose golf editor was Bernard Darwin (grandson of Charles), announced a one-time competition in golf architecture.  The best design submitted for an original two shot hole would be used as the finishing hole on an American course being developed by Charles Blair Macdonald at Lido, Long Island, New York.  Horace Hutchinson, Darwin and Macdonald were to be the judges."

What's interesting is that Mackenzie never visited the site, nor drew inspiration for the design from any features of the land - not exactly the formula most in this forum would advocate for leading to great golf holes.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

John
I don't believe the hole was ever built - a modified version of the design was constructed at Lido. I doubt many of the competitiors - most who resided in Great Britain - would've had a chance to visit the site (that goes for the judges too). They were given a detailed topo map of the site - a pretty flat featureless piece of ground - I doubt it would have made much difference since Macdonald was planning on creating a great deal.

Here is Tom Simpson's design:

[TEPaul]

I wouldn't think it would make much difference either if MacDonald and Raynor used MacKenzie's hole concept or even the drawing in almost exact detail. As Tom MacW said a great deal of the Lido was land that was completely created by them not only in shape apparently but they actually created land where none had existed by massive amounts of dredge fill--certainly more than anyone had ever heard of or imagined in that day and age.

The hole's design also had a certain amount of latitude on site, I'm sure, because as far as I can see it was just a drawing and never even had contours or elevations on it.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

That's just a gorgeous concept drawing, particularly the tee shot! There's nothing about that hole that would suggest a golfer should just haul out a driver and hit the ball down the center of the fairway!  I love holes where something about them but particularly the tee shot is just an "in your face" choice or series of choices that cannot be ignored!

But I don't mean that's all I really admire either. I like some of Ross's and other archtects' holes, particularly tee shots sometimes where there is a lot of width and no apparent meaning or choice at all! The meaning is farther down though, and maybe some real meaning so the golfer has to really study the hole or have experience on it to understand why and how to put one and one together properly as to the best way to get there. The latter is what I suspect and am hoping for Rustic Canyon's #12 and also #13!

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I am using the concept on my 18th hole. I could not get the site to come up. the lido idea makes for a great hole either exactly of using the general concepts of the hole strategically.

[Tom Doak]

Tom MacW:  I don't know if you know it -- I assume Mr. Wexler covered it in his book, and of course George B. will cover it in his -- but two of the runners-up from the Country Life contest were also adapted by Macdonald for Lido.

The Simpson hole you drew up was used almost exactly the way it was drawn; I think it was Lido's 15th, but it's been a while since I looked at the aerial photo.

He also adapted a dogleg hole that was featured as one of the runners-up, with a couple of changes, for [I think] Lido's sixth.

MacKenzie's ideal 18th was built, too, but in a simplified form.  I'm anxious to see Kay's replica if he really produced the same elevation changes -- but I'll bet he didn't.  As I remember, there was something like eight feet of elevation in the green itself, and a 15-foot mound at the front right.

[George Bahto]

Tom Mc and others interested - I see Tom D just posted a bit of this):  

the Simpson design was also built at Lido - Simpson could get an award because he was a professional.

That hole at Lido was called Strategy - it was the 15th.

It was even built at Westhampton CC but after a short time it was modified, either in house or perhaps it was Josh Banks who altered it when he was right there building the "new" Oneck course for the W'hampton CC (1928 - 1930)

Yet another great hole came out of the contest - it was a modification of another winner and evolved into what was to become "Raynor's Prize Dog-Leg" (see feature interview for info on that) ..... it only took me 3 years to figure out that one and many hours looking thru (British) Country Life microfilm before finding all the entries they printed).

Most of these holes are gone because the clubs just didn't get "all this fairway bunkering".

That hole also first showed up at Lido - it was the great 6th hole - one of the great holes of the course.

By the way, when Macdonald & Raynor finally put the MacK hole on the ground they changed it from the original 5-options of play to 3 options.  They thought it wolud be too complex off the tee-shot.  The fairways were segmented with the use of various shapes of mounding - it was not a great big wide single fairway.

CB was very cool with this idea - it was a great PR job getting the contest into Country Life .... and his buddies were running the contest.    He was trying to get as much an "International" membership for the Lido project.  He already had the "National" membership at NGLA.

Lido had all the amenities one could want for a club but they, the investors and CB, had something no other great course in the world had .............   a great Atlantic Ocean Bathing Beach, the Lido beachfront, which is really an extension of the one of the great beaches in NY, Jones Beach, just to the east, separated by Reynolds Channel (that's where all the fill came from - and the great Channel hole was just of it .... duh!  )

[Mike_Cirba]

Jamie,

Thanks for updating the group on the attempted creation of this long-lost hole by Stephen Kay.  I'm definitely heading down this summer to see it, and perhaps others here are interested, as well.

George,

As usual, thanks for the definitive history.  

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

George
Is 'Raynor's Prized Dog-Leg' the second place winner pictured in Scotland's Gift?

I believe Tom Simpson did not enter the contest because his partner, Herbert Fowler, was a judge. It is interesting that he would enter his design following the contest and that Darwin would feature it -- they no doubt felt it was worth comparing with MacKenzie's.

[George Bahto]

Tom - I believe it was an adaptation that, yes.

The key to the hole at Lido was that in order to reach the green in two, you had to hit blind over a sandhill right in front of you, this at the inside corner of the dogleg, but worse, the rest of the shot was over the sandy wastes of Lido's off-fairway to a green that was at a most difficult angle and bunkered well (this can still be seen at W'hamp, if the alternate fairway, now gone, could be pictured as originally built) ..... sorry, if that sounds confusing - it was a complex hole I would love to build as was built at Lido

(whooops, there goes everyone to the drawing board .......    hurry guys, you can call it "your original" design :-)  ....  "hey this Raynor guy was pretty good after all"  

Compounding the problem was that there was a huge waste area before the green that everyone had to contend with.

You said, "Tom Simpson did not enter the contest because his partner, Herbert Fowler, was a judge". ... he actually did submit but disqualified himself - they published it because the design was so good .......   I'm not sure  "it was worth comparing with MacKenzie's" was what it was about Tom.  It was just another really good hole - I think I have six of the entries around here in the files.

The second, third and another winner by a man named Walsham were pretty similar to the Rayor P-DL adaptation. I think Walsham's was the one that Raynor drew from ......  in the Walsham drawing with a compulsory carry short of the green was drawn as "Hills with Sand Pockets" which the judges criticized as a blind-shot problem - I think Seth moderated that to a flat waste area and used that for his version.

The judges, Darwin, Hutchson and Fowler, said there were 5 or 6 entries that were just about as good as the winner(s).

The Channel hole was far and away the best hole on a course with many great holes.

Incidently, for all you "diagonal risk/reward" fans of the Cape hole, the Cape at Lido was 378-yards - NO diagonal carry off the tee, and like the Cape at Fishers Island, the second shot carry was over hazard and the green which jutted out into the sandy wastland of Lido's off-fairway.

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