[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Take a chill -- don't get your Texas attitude get bent out of shape -- OK -- partner!

I stand on what I said -- The Lone Star State is NOT a golfing destination of top priority when compared to a sloew of other sin the USA. I've been to Texas countless times and seen just about all of the name courses cited.

That's why I asked Lou, you, or anyone else for that matter, to list any "new" courses that may be worthy of a major round-up of courses I'm doing within that area of the country.

But, let's place it in some sense of proportion -- Texas has potential -- that much I don't doubt. However, and it's a big however, let's see what happens.

P.S. Anyone can name one exception to the dead flat reality I mentioned but I also stand by that. Much of what you see in Texas architecture may be as big as the state but design wise it's more half empty rather than half full THUS FAR.

One last thing -- Steve, the "discerning golfer" is someone who wants to see a rich variety of designs -- private, public -- you name it on land that is rich in variety. I even mentioned the qualities associated with the Hill Country and how much golf development is taking place there. Just keep in mind this -- No less than Tom Doak weighed in with his comments on Texas in his book "Confidential Guide." I believe much has happened within the state, but for the people who view GCA the state still has miles to go IMHO to be the sort of destination that jumps at or near the top of the list.

Puhhhleeeeze -- don't even begin to suggest that NYC heat and humidity is comparable to what you experience in either Houston or the Gulf Coast area. Not even close partner ...

[Steve Lang]

Ok Matt, I'm cool.. I'm even sitting down.. can't I have some fun too?  I guess you felt like I was having a PatMucci moment asking questions to you?

Sure its hot in texas in the dead of summer, but as Lou said, folks get used to it and it doesn't seem to keep us off the courses other than for a few mid-day hours.. siesta time.. but remember we have three summers here, the other two are called spring and fall by most... and those are the times we get most travellers here.   Also, you'd be surprized at the number of folks who come here in summer from mexico city and other southern metro areas to vacation!

You can stand by whatever references you want, but from Inverness to Oakland hills to Medina where I grew up is much much less varied topographically than in the Houston - Dallas - San Antonio triangle... yet there are many courses of note sprinkled there..

I've vacationed in Northern Michigan for 20 years, but its not really a national as much as a regional destination for folks in the know..  San Antonio is unquestionably a national destination for many professional society functions which really bring in the crowds..
 
So PLLLLUUUUUUEEEEASE ask your new york news media to stop making a national news story out of your summer heat waves being so unbearable then!!!

p.s.
I hope you try to look at Blaketree National, Fish Creek, High Meadow Ranch and the Tradition at Cypresswood on your next listing for North Houston..

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Appreciate your comments -- just remember I'm a golfer
first -- I don't throw forward where I live as some kind of badge of honor. If there's good golf anyplace you can be sure I'm interested in seeing it firsthand.

Many thanks for the names of the courses you mentioned. I'm in the process in working with a particular pub that will be focusing on what's new for golf in the Lone Star State. If you, or any one else, has a preferred listing of recommendations among the new ones and can put them in some form of order from highest to next highest I'd be much obliged partner ...

P.S. When you mention you rmidwest roots you'd probably understand how "empty" Texas is THUS FAR when compared to the gems you played when you lived there. Things can most certainly change -- we shall see.

I too enjoyed San Antonio but again we are talking about a handful of courses worth seeing. Are they good for the state of Texas -- no doubt. Are they national heavyweights worthy of USA acclaim? Think about it. I know I have.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Matt, the best thing I can say about you observation briefly comparing Texas to Florida is that Texas has built much better courses on better land at much better rates. What has happened in south Florida is just wrong. $200 plus golf on really poor layouts is bad for the game. I do think Texas and particualy San Antonio/Austin are becoming a great place for golfers to spend a week. I have tried to push Gib there for golf rather than the New Orleans area for several years and go to New Orleans for the eating & drinking part of the trip. You get better golf, food/drink and hotels for the money any day in San Antonio over Florida unless you are playing the elite private clubs like Seminole and staying at the Breakers.

[Matt_Ward]

Tiger B:

I don't doubt that there are some "resort" locations in Florida that grab the big $$ during the high time in winter from the snow birds. Guess what? The locations you mentioned in Texas that are "hot" resorts may be a bit less, however, let's face some facts -- you're not getting golf for $50 either.

I've played the whole slew of courses in and around San Antonio and the top 3-4 are not cheap by Texas standards anyway.

Golf course $$ value is one of those issues that depend upon how much $$ you have in your pocket.  

There's plenty of golf that's coming on line in Texas -- as I said the hill country area in and around Austin seems to have a few courses worth a look (Cimarron Hills / Jack Nicklaus design; Avery Ranch / Andy Raugust designer; The Hills CC (Flintrock Falls GC) / Jack Nicklaus and Jack Nicklaus, Jr. designers; and Lakecliff CC / Arnold Palmer & Ed Seay designers) and I'll be visiting sometime later this summer when I stop by to see my brother near Padre Island. But, let's face some facts as well -- Texas is still "developing" as a state for golf tourism. It's not among the top ten golf destinations in the United States IMHO and given the surge in neighboring states such as New Mexico, and even Louisiana, it will be interesting to see how this next "wave" of new courses fare when compared to the many dismal offerings that have preceded it. We shall see ...

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Matt, those $$ signs are hitting home here on Income Tax check writing day. So your point is well made. I really do think you get a much better value in the San Antonio/Austin area even if they are not nearly as well developed as Orlando, First Coast, West Palm, Naples etc. Shoot, it is not as developed as any of those by any stretch of the imagination. But then again hopefully, a better job will be done with the opportunity as the dead and near dead and better off dead start to drift to Texas for their final days.

[Matt_Ward]

Tiger B and all other Lone Star State fans:

Love to hear from those who play some of the new layouts in and around the hill country area of Austin. The word on the street I'm getting is that a few of them have some real depth and interest.

Many thanks ...

[Lou_Duran]

Of the top of my head, 3 excellent courses under $50:

Pine Dunes, Frankston (east Texas)
Tierra Verde, Arlington (D/FW)
Tangle Ridge, Grand Prairie (D/FW)

With couponing and non-peak play, there are many offerings in most major metropolitan areas (with the possible exception of Austin) for quality, highly affordable golf.  And best of all, golf is but one of the many fun things to do in many of the areas.  For example, Arlington (D/FW) and San Antonio have highly recognized amusement and water parks, major league sports, and probably more retail space per capita than anywhere else.  Texas is great for family vacations at all price points.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt;

I'd recommend seeing Texas Star GC, by Keith Foster, between Dallas & Ft. Worth.  

Lou Duran and I have debated its merits, and I know BillV played there and he might want to weigh in.

I saw a lot of things I liked a lot and am frankly surprised that it's not on any of the lists.  Architecturally, I found it much more interesting than Foster's "The Quarry", for instance, which is almost always ranked.  

[Steve Lang]

Well here's a couple courses within easy driving range of Houston's center.. 104 public and 58 private courses with a few bogeys possible in count because of extra 9's (27's)

Like 1 for every 45,000 people or so... kinda like restaurant planning..

I'll re-edit with rankings, vintage, & GCA's later, as able..

Overall SAL_Fun_Rankings with Stars *, **, etc. everything's relative to seen & experienced

Public Courses:

Alvin GC, (9) Alvin
***+ Augusta Pines, Spring
** Battleground GC, Deer Park
** Bay Forest GC, LaPorte
* Bayou GC, Texas City
Beacon Lakes GC, Dickinson
Beacon Lakes,
Bear Creek GW (Challenge), Houston
Bear Creek GW (Masters), Houston
Bear Creek GW (Pres), Houston
Bend @ Brazoria (9), Rosharon
*** Bentwood GC, Porter
Blackhorse - North, Cypress
Blackhorse - South, Cypress
***** Blaketree National (Coore, Crenshaw, Blake), Montgomery
** Blue Bonnet GC, Navasota
Brock Park GC, Houston
Cape Royale GC, Coldsprings
Chambers County, Anahuac
Chapparal GC (9), Dickinson
Cinco Ranch GC, Katy
Classic 3 (9), Houston
Clear Creek GC, Houston
* Clear Lake GC, Houston
**+ Columbia Lakes, West Columbia
Columbus GC, Columbus
Crow Hollow GC, Trinity
Cypress Lakes GC, Cypress
* Cypresswood – Creek, Spring
**+ Cypresswood – Cypress, Spring
**** Cypresswood – Tradition, Spring
*** Del Lago Resort, Montgomery
Eagle Lake Rec., (9) Eagle Lake
***+ Eagle Point GC, Mt. Belvieu
Evergreen Pt. GC, Baytown
**** Fish Creek (Elkington), Montgomery
Foxcreek GC, Hempstead
Freeport Muni, Freeport
* Friendswood CC, Friendswood
*** Galveston Island Muni GC
Glenbrook GC, Houston
*** Glennloch Farms GC (27), Spring
*** Greatwood GC, Sugarland
Green Caye GC (9), Dickinson
Green Meadows GC, Katy
Gus Wortham GC, Houston
Hackberry GC, (9) Houston
** Hermann Park GC, Houston
Heron Lakes GC, Houston
**** High Meadow Ranch (Ogrin), Magnolia
Hillcrest GC (9), Alvin
Houston National GC, Cypress
Houston Oaks GC (links), Hockley
Indian Shores (9), Crosby
Inwood Forest, Houston
** Jersey Meadows GC, Houston
Kingwood Cove GC, Kingwood
Kirbywood GC (9), Cleveland
*** Lake Windcrest GC, Magnolia
Lakeview GC, LaMarque
Legendary Oaks, Hempstead
Longwood GC (27), Cypress
*** Magnolia Creek GC, League City
Meadowbrook Farms, Katy
Melrose GC, (18-par3) Houston
*** Memorial Park GC, Houston
Millridge GC, Livingston
Montgomery Co GC (9), Conroe
Mulligans (9), Houston
Navasota Muni, Navasota
Newport GC, Crosby
Oil Patch GC (18-par 3), Humble
*** Old Orchard GC, Richmond
Pasadena Muni, Pasadena
Pecan Lakes, SW of Navasota off of 105
Rancho Caribe (9), Crystal Beach
Red Wolf Run GC, Huffman
Redstone GC (Hardy Jacobson), Humble
Rio Colorado GC, Bay City
River Pointe GC, Richmond
River Ridge GC, Sealy
River Terrace GC, Channelview
San Jacinto Jr. Col (9), Pasadena
Sharpstown Golf Course, Houston, old, renovated, cheap
Sienna Plantation GC, Missouri City
** Southwyck, Pearland
Stephen F. Austin GC, San Felipe
Texas National GC, Willis
Texas Par Golf (9 exec), Houston
The Falls Resort, New Ulm
The Training Station, Sugarland (9)
**** The Woodlands – Pines (gone,,, new opens 6/1/03)
****+ The Woodlands - TPC
***+ Timber Creek GC (27), Friendswood
***+ Tour 18, Humble
Treeline GC, Tomball
Waller CC, Waller
***** Waterwood National (Dye), Huntsville-Lake Livingston
Wedgewood GC, Conroe
West Brazos GC, Brazoria
*** Wildcat GC – Highlands, Houston
Wildcat GC – Lakes, Houston
***+WindRose GC, Spring
World Houston GC, Houston

Private Clubs

April Sound GC, Conroe
**+ Atascosita CC, Humble
Bay City CC
Bay Oaks CC
Baywood CC
Bellville Golf & Rec.
*** Bentwater – Miller, Willis
**** Bentwater – Weiskopf, Willis
BraeBurn CC, SW (redone in 90’s)
Brenham CC, NW
***** Carlton Woods (2001 - Nicklaus Signature)
**** Champions GC – Cypress Creek (1957-Ralph Plummer)
*** Champions GC – Jackrabbit (redone by Fazio 2002 with $ from Tour Championship)
Country Place GC
Cypress GC
***+ Deerwood Club, Kingwood (Tin Cup Course)
Elkins Lake CC,
Ft. Bend CC, SW
Galveston CC
Goose Creek CC
Hearthstone CC
Houston CC, Houston
Houstonian CC, SW
*** Kingwood CC – Forest
***+Kingwood CC - Island
*** Kingwood CC – Lakes
Lakeside CC, SW
Lochinvar GC, Houston (1980 – Nicklaus)
***- Northgate CC (27)
*** Panorama CC (27), Conroe
Pecan Grove Plantation CC, SW
Pine Forest CC (27), Houston
Quail Valley CC, SW
** Raveneaux CC – New
*** Raveneaux CC – Old
River Oaks CC, Houston (Ross+)
**+ River Plantation CC (27), Conroe
Riverbend CC,SW
Riverside CC, SW
**** Royal Oaks, CC (2000 Couples)
S. Shore Harbour
Shadow Hawk CC (2000 – Rees Jones)
Sugar Creek CC (27), SW
Sweetwater CC - Pecan, SW
Sweetwater-2
The Club at Falcon Creek, SW
*** The Woodlands CC – Oaks
***+ The Woodlands CC – Palmer (27)
**** The Woodlands CC – Player
Tomball CC
**** Walden on Lake Conroe, Conroe  (1976 - Robert von Hagge and Bruce Devlin)
**+Walden on Lake Houston, Humble
*** Weston Lakes GC, SW
Westwood CC, Houston ( in wall to wall renovation)
Wharton CC
*** Willow Creek CC
Willow Fork CC, SW
Willowwisp CC, SW

[mike_beene]

Several observations.The soil and climate in Dallas and Houston are very different,so I really can"t speak for Houston(rumor has it they have alligators,an animal every god-fearing Dallasite has seen at the New Orleans zoo and learned to fear).What we may lack in architecture,we make up with 10 months of the firmest,fastest conditions anywhere.Also,there seems to be a perception Dallas is all new suburbia.We have some neat,old courses.They just aren't as well known.If the majors were played in the winter several would be highly rated.I've been fortunate to play a lot of fine places and by doing so realized that golf here is better than I was led to believe growing up.

[Lou_Duran]

Mike,

Our friends on both coasts are under the mistaken notion that Texas is devoid of good golf, smart people, and any level of sophistication.  That the state keeps growing by leaps and bounds, that our economy ranks among the largest in the world, and that golf development here in the modern era has been as strong as anywhere must be the result of chance.

You are absolutely right about the old courses in the area.  Your Lakewood CC, Brook Hollow, Northwood, and Oak Cliff are all fun, outstanding courses in Dallas.  Colonial in FW is not bad!  But our real strength lies in the many second tier courses, which while not necessarily hidden gems, are great tests of golf, accessible, and for the most part, highly affordable.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Lou, not a bad plug at all from a chamber of commerce view. However you are right. I do find it odd that while Texas has never had trouble singing its praises in general. Why in golf, notwithstanding its history of great players and events, is this the case. I believe it is the USGA timetable for majors that fall in the good climate period in the Midwest and Northeast and when it is too hot in Texas/the South is a major reason. What state other than florida has 3 tour events each year. Yes California, but it get its fair credit for golf and maybe even too much.

[Mike_Cirba]

Guys;

I agree with you that Texas seems to have a lot of really good "second level" courses, many of which are admirably available to the public.

However, does it really have a "great" course(s)?

What course(s) in the state would be a good site for a Major event if not for the summer doldrums?  

[Lou_Duran]

Colonial, Champions-Cypress, and probably Dallas National.  Any of these are as "worthy" from an architectural standpoint as a number of others which have held major championships.
But, Mike, your point is well taken.  Perhaps in 50 - 100 years, our newer courses will achieve the reputation of those in the older population centers in the Northeast.  As you know, while I too revere the work of the Golden Age designers, I believe that some outstanding golf architecture has been practiced over the last 10 - 15 years.  Many of the best known contemporary designers have left their mark on Texas.  And the level of knowledge, application of scientific principles, mechanical advancements, and less restrictive budgets have, in my opinion, only increased the quality of the work.  I know that when I moved to the Dallas area in 1978 after playing those wonderful Ohio courses for years, I was concerned about the lack of quality facilities in the area.  Today, I only lament that I don't have the time to check out so many of the fine new golf courses that have sprung up all over the state.

[Matt_Ward]

Lou you said ... "Our friends on both coasts are under the mistaken notion that Texas is devoid of good golf, smart people, and any level of sophistication."

Lou -- just a question -- who from either the left or right coats said such a specific statement?

What I said is that until VERY, VERY recently much of what you find in Texas is really pedestrian type stuff. I never mentioned the brain capacity of the people there! I also said that until the state really demonstrates the wherewithal to place a course in the "great" category the role of Texas as a "major" golf destination within the USA is more of a dream than a present day reality.

Yes, you now have the second wave of CCFAD's getting a late but clear rush for golf development in the Dallas and Houston areas, to name just two. But golf course development is not the same thing as having stellar courses that can hold their own against the nation's elite. Just check out Myrtle Beach (Grand Strand) -- the home of "fast food" golf, to name just one location -- ditto the bulk of the junk that calls itself golf in the greater SoCal area.

As I stated before there is a major push by deep pocket developers to bring on line courses in the Hill County just outside of Austin. My brother lived there for about 10 years and I can remember seeing what was in the offing. Some of the terrain is outstanding, however, whether the actual designs can match up well is something that will be determined.

For all those who are Texas proponents -- just keep this in mind. The golf development impetus is only in its infancy in your state. Given the amount of land and people there's still the unknown factor about will "may" happen. Just remember for every "may" there's also a "may not" that can take place as well. For anyone to suggest that Texas is right there with the big boy states in America for golf RIGHT NOW is smoking some really high grade wacki tobaci!

Texas golf may have improved compared to what Texas golf was before -- however, one doesn't automatically make a huge leap and then say that Texas is NOW worthy of being in the company of other areas of the country that have a number of superior courses garnering their fair share of attention. Can it happen in Texas? Sure. Has it? That remains to be seen.

Yippi Yi Yo Qi Yae ...

[Lou_Duran]

Matt,

My opening comment was in general, based on years of interaction with people from throughout the world and their expressed perceptions of the state.  Perhaps we are overly sensitive down here, but one only has to read the paper or listen to television news to know that there is not a tremendous amount of respect for the intellectual capacity of President Bush or the people who populate the large "fly-over" regions of our country.  But that's okay.  We have a very nice quality of life here without the wonderful CA weather or scenery, and more growth than some folks would like.

So, while I agree that Texas is not a golf mecca like Long Island, the Monterey Penninsula, and the Chicago and Philly areas, there is plenty here to interest most every level of golfer.  Going back to the original post, is Texas becoming a destination for the golf aficionado, my answer would be yes.  At least here you can see most of the better courses.  What are the chances that an aficionado without great connections would get to play Shinny, National, Pine Valley, Merion, Oakmont, etc.?  Heck, even showing up at the "public" Bethpage-Black doesn't mean you're going to get on.  For the most part, such is not a problem down here where even an average Joe can normally find a way to play some of our very best.  

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I still stand with Lou on this. Yes, there are a limited number of classical courses in this part of the country. There are some though which do not get much mention. I only hope River Oaks gets restored soon. Perry Maxwell did some great work down here. There are a couple of courses in San Antonio which could be restored too. OMG what has happened to me sitting here waving a Texas flag.

[mike_beene]

We should get credit for Dornick Hills,it's just across the line from north Dallas(for that matter,with the wonders of Southwest Airlines I can be on the grounds at Southern Hills as fast as I can be at Colonial on a bad traffic day)

[K.Hegland]

Everyone keeps missing the boat on one of the best new (or old as far as I'm concerned) coarses in TX, Austin Golf Club, but thats the way they want it I suppose, but I've ranted and raved enough about AGC on this site, just wanted to add my two cents before I called it a night.  

[Andy Hodson]

John

While you're waving that Texas flag, let me teach you the words....the tune is the same as "I've Been Working on the Railroad." First, extend your index and pinkie finger..........

I, too, would love to see ROCC restored to its original design. But, like a canvas that has been painted on over and over, it may be hard to find the original Ross design. Too many cooks (RTJ, Sr., Joe Finger, Rees) have spoiled that broth.

Lou, here's more ammo for your valiant fight. I happen to know of a certain East Texas course designed by Chet Williams that will be the host site for the 2005 Big XII Championship as part of a three course rota.

The other two courses:  Prairie Dunes and Southern Hills.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Congrats Andy, that will get the club alot a great exposure. It will also help you get the message to the super and owner about places on the course that need attention. Where are all these golfers going to stay while competing? I actually like the words to I've been working on the railroad better. lol

[Andy Hodson]

John

The message is out (about the places on the course; hell, for that matter, the whole course). As is the old super. The new one has been here for about two weeks; he'll be great and WP will get in the kind of shape she deserves. Already it is playing much firmer and faster, but the greens are being treated as if they are in the ICU, which they are. The should be fine for the Spirit Amateur event in October.

I'll email you with the details.

BTW, standing and singing "Railroad" after a tough loss just doesn't have the same effect.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Andy, I will wear a hat but singing " the Eyes of Texas Are Upon You" is out lol

[Steve Lang]

Kyle,

No one's missed the boat about Austin, certainly just the opposite,,, apparently just not a lot of GCA'ers there..  tell us your top entertainment choices, beyond watching the millions of bats flying off at sunset.

The biggest rap against Austin as a destination is the cost of the venues there,,,

Where does the University team home these days?

Where are the High school championships held in the area?

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