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Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: INFLUENCE on Ross
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2009, 07:41:59 AM »
Rich/Melvyn

If its the article I'm thinking about then I think you'll find JS only laid it out which mean't someone else must have designed it  ;)

Niall

Rich Goodale

Re: INFLUENCE on Ross
« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2009, 07:47:29 AM »
How could I forget, Niall! :-[  Has anybody checked the train schedules from Huddersfield to Brora in 1897 to see if HH Barker might have dropped by then?

Melvyn Morrow

Re: INFLUENCE on Ross
« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2009, 07:58:17 AM »

I suppose a bit early for Wilson, when was it he travelled to UK 1912isk. Come to think of it he may have been just a few years old in 1892, but that proves very little on here. If there is an opinion, there no doubt will be an agenda, or is that just stretching reality just a little too far?  No, I fear not for GCA.com Members. One thing is for certain OTM did not design the 1892 9 hole or the extension, but who was it that was responsible for playing golf at Brora in the mid 1880ís, now that is the question.

Melvyn

Rich Goodale

Re: INFLUENCE on Ross
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2009, 08:07:41 AM »
Melvyn

My guess is Old Tom (as many at Brora believe), but I'm not discounting Barker!

PS--Getting back to Anthony's topic, I found a reference in my vast research library (aka the garage) to the effect that the young Donald Ross "had watched Old Tom Morris at work when the old veteran viewed and planned the golf course on Dornoch links" in 1886, so the reports of his relationship with OTM during his time at St. Andrews might not be the fantasy that Tom MacW implies.

Rich

Melvyn Morrow

Re: INFLUENCE on Ross
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2009, 09:01:36 AM »
Rich

Much has been uncovered over the last few years, reports surfacing and confirmed by others sources. I am interested in written reports, how they can jump-start a search. Niall, as you know has been very active is his own research, which has also assisted my own topic of OTM. Niall is more interested in the later periods coming into the 20th Century I believe, but our interests do overlap at times. Niall has been a great help and has been credited with his input with the clubs that have benefited from his finds. I will not forget his help with Lamlash & Kelvinside, which has greatly increased our knowledge.

The questions one I suppose should ask is not necessary about Ross but Sutherland himself. Without going in to the story or details, Sutherland was more than a good golfer and ultimately involved in design. One must ask the question where did he get the design bug from, what pushed his interest in that direction, why did he not design the Dornoch extensions and mods in the late 1880’s?

There is a main focal point and by looking at the history most seems to stem from the late 1880’s. By 1892, Sutherland felt confident to design Brora & then Skibo, he felt it worthwhile to send Ross to St Andrews. Who was based at St Andrews and known as a course designer and would Ross have been involved in any way with OTM.

According to some NO, so why bother trying to change a closed mind. However knowing Sutherland as OTM did, why would he ignore the lad who was sent down to learn. Ask yourself  was that OTM nature to ignore and not help.

As for Anthony comment, he had the pleasure of meeting an interesting guy who knows a lot about golf in St Andrews and Scotland, plus of the individuals concerned. If he made that statement, I would not dismiss it but would want to know more, to learn what courses etc.etc.  However, that would be crediting OTM with contact with Ross and possibly influencing the young man, which is not what some want to hear let alone believe.

Forget proof or supporting articles or information from other historians. Does it add up that Ross would not have met OTM, would not have been interested in him and his work, but stayed alone working is a club factory while other played golfer and talked to OTM. Then you have to ask yourself why did all the others, to name but three Mackenzie, Hutchinson & Tillinghast bother with OTM. Sometimes simple basic common sense is also required, but I suppose when it questions one own agenda and opinions you must dismiss it quickly are irrelevant.

If you were a lad today and Tiger was the name in town, would you stay away and not be influenced by him.  Hard one I suppose to work out.

Nevertheless, I think we need to go back to Sutherland. As for Ross, alas as I have said before he never shined here in Scotland, but that takes nothing away from what he did in his lifetime in golf.

Melvyn

« Last Edit: October 02, 2009, 10:03:42 AM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »

Anthony Gray

Re: INFLUENCE on Ross
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2009, 11:12:19 AM »


  The gentelman I spoke to was David Joy at a resteraunt pub in St Andrews. He was a fountain of information and we most likly spent one and a half hours together. He is an actor and portrays OTM on the video "Keeper of the Greens" and also does public events as OTM. Many ,many things were discussed. I asked from an architectural standpoint what influence did OTM have on CBM. He shrugged and and shook his head as if to say not much. When asked the same about Donald Ross he said they toured some courses together. Then he started talking about Willie Park JR who was open champion leading the way for scotish golfers coming to the states to spred the game as well as to build courses. I wish I could have gone into more detail with to Ross question, but I was all ears. Had alot of laughs also.

  Anthony

 

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: INFLUENCE on Ross
« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2009, 12:12:48 PM »
Melvyn
I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood, I thought you said you were going email the article. Did you change your mind? Whatever the case no harm was done.

Here is an interesting article from Golf April 1892.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: INFLUENCE on Ross
« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2009, 12:15:59 PM »
Tom, I sent them to you twice on 'thomas.macwood@sbcglobal.net' 7 seven hours & 6 hours ago

Melvyn
« Last Edit: October 02, 2009, 12:19:05 PM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »

Rich Goodale

Re: INFLUENCE on Ross
« Reply #33 on: October 02, 2009, 12:17:25 PM »
Thanks, Anthony

David Joy does know his Old Tom Morris as, in addition to channeling him for money, he wrote the "Scrapbook of OTM" which has a lot of good info in it.  Did he mention any specifics of Ross and Morris's interaction.

Rich

Melvyn Morrow

Re: INFLUENCE on Ross
« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2009, 12:20:41 PM »

Tom

Sending my e-mail and attachments right now.

Melvyn

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: INFLUENCE on Ross
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2009, 12:21:37 PM »
Tom, I sent them to you twice on 'thomas.macwood@sbcglobal.net' 7 seven hours & 6 hours ago

Melvyn

I have not received it.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: INFLUENCE on Ross
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2009, 12:45:25 PM »
Here is an excerpt from an interview with Ross after his first tour (1910) of golf courses for the stated purpose of studying golf architecture.


Anthony Gray

Re: INFLUENCE on Ross
« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2009, 12:55:15 PM »
Thanks, Anthony

David Joy does know his Old Tom Morris as, in addition to channeling him for money, he wrote the "Scrapbook of OTM" which has a lot of good info in it.  Did he mention any specifics of Ross and Morris's interaction.

Rich

  Rich,
  Only that they looked at courses together. The conversation sliped back and forth from golf history to humor. He was great company. I am glad to say it was not the first time I had spent with David,and it is always a treat.

  Anthony


Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: INFLUENCE on Ross
« Reply #38 on: October 02, 2009, 01:04:18 PM »
Melvyn
I don't know what the problem is, but I haven't received your email.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: INFLUENCE on Ross
« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2009, 01:36:19 PM »

Well, that's quite interesting - because what is generally known is that although they have worked on the same courses at different times (remodels, etc.), they actually worked together only once.  


Here is an article about their redesign work at Glen View. Its a little fuzzy and at one point the author confuses Colt and Ross, but I think you get the general idea. I've also seen them mentioned as a team at Indian Hill and some touch up work for CC of Detroit. In 1920 Colt listed Exmoor as a course he was involved with as well. After they collaborated in the Spring of 1913 later that year Ross went back to the UK for his second golf architecture tour.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: INFLUENCE on Ross
« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2009, 01:43:54 PM »

I have resent them fist my e-mail without attachments , then just the attachgments, but here are some of what has  been sent

Brora New 9 Hole Course 25.03.1892



Brora New Course Minor Mods & Clubhouse 17.11.1893



Brora Course 9 to 18 Holes  5.08.1897



Brora Course 18 Hole Mods  2.01.1906



Melvyn
« Last Edit: October 02, 2009, 01:53:25 PM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: INFLUENCE on Ross
« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2009, 01:54:53 PM »
Melvyn
Thanks for the articles...your email just came through too. I think the date of your third article is off, it had to be in August, not May, because that was when the Calcutta Cup was traditionally played. Did you find any mention of Ross?

Melvyn Morrow

Re: INFLUENCE on Ross
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2009, 03:12:44 PM »


Tom

I think the dates mentioned are totally correct. First was the 5.08.1897 then again confirmed the news of the extension on the 13.08 1897 being a Friday. So I believe they are correct, unless the papers printed the wrong date on the two dates.

Dates are correct.

Melvyn 

Phil_the_Author

Re: INFLUENCE on Ross
« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2009, 04:41:58 PM »
Tom & Melvyn,

You're BOTH correct!

Tom, you wrote, "I think the date of your third article is off, it had to be in August, not May..."

Melvyn wrote the date as you would find it done in the U.K. "Brora Course 9 to 18 Holes  5.08.1897..."

5(day).08 (month - August).1897(year) 

Rich Goodale

Re: INFLUENCE on Ross
« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2009, 04:45:13 PM »
Thanks for those, Melvyn

Don't worry about Tom MacW.  He thinks that 5.08.1897 means May 8, rather than August 5.  Keep spoon feeding the poor guy.  He'll eventually learn, and maybe even some day have the courtesy to answer the question you posed to him earlier in this thread........

Rich

Melvyn Morrow

Re: INFLUENCE on Ross
« Reply #45 on: October 02, 2009, 06:36:50 PM »

The Golf Article posted by Tom from April 1892 was a direct copy taken from The Scotsman Newspaper of the 25th of March 1892. Surprising as I would have thought that Golf would have been more detailed, shows that the Scotsman were spot on.

Melvyn

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: INFLUENCE on Ross
« Reply #46 on: October 02, 2009, 10:39:03 PM »

Tom, I think you're stretching with this, to be honest.  I think the fact that Old Elm was a Colt design built by Ross confused the author into believing that they were some sort of business team, like Hall & Oates or Laurel & Hardy.  It said this guys ideas "represent" the work of Colt and Ross.  It doesn't say they did anything.  It sounds more to me like this Ferguson fellow was inspired by Old Elm than anything else.

I admit -   I've always been curious about the Indian Hill thing, given that nobody around here has even given Colt any credit for it (it's always been called a Ross by most folks around here), but I'm not there yet in terms of Ross doing anything at Glen View.

Time will tell.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: INFLUENCE on Ross New
« Reply #47 on: October 02, 2009, 11:06:13 PM »

The Golf Article posted by Tom from April 1892 was a direct copy taken from The Scotsman Newspaper of the 25th of March 1892. Surprising as I would have thought that Golf would have been more detailed, shows that the Scotsman were spot on.

Melvyn

Melvyn
In 1892? Why would the newly formed golf magazine have been more detailed, and weren't they both based in Edinburg? I wouldn't be surprised if there was a crossover in the staff...who was the author of the newspaper article?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2009, 11:26:13 PM by Tom MacWood »

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