[Joe Bausch]

#8 at Royal New Kent is comparable yardage, maybe a hair shorter and the key feature is a large dune which hides the green. The hole is a sharp dogleg right but as a final twist, the green is set behind a Dune on the left. If you were putting the ball it would be a double dogleg. Maybe some can repost a picture from the yardage book or other aerial.

The decisions seem to be; 220 or so off the tee into a narrow sliver of fairway to leave some view of the green and about 160 in, 240 or 250 off the tee into the widest part of the fairway that offers basically no view of the green and about 150 in, or Driver over the corner of some bunkers and other garbage that will leave just a short wedge in that is basically totally blind with a big dune right in front.

[Chris DeNigris]

Just played Lake Presidential for the first time on Sat and I think this should easlily make the "best of " MD list. Absolutely stunning scenery, a lot of elevation changes, interesting greens w/o being wildly contoured and a good bit of water that adds to the asthetics but doesn't come into play too often- no. 9 nothwithstanding, where I splashed one 

The rough is tough- kinda Bulle Rockish and there's probably a few too many trees for a lot of people's taste but I didn't find it too consticting.

I'd have to play it a few more times but at first glance it's a lot of fun and has to be near the top of the public access courses in the DC area.

[Bill_McBride]

Over off Chain Bridge road(close to Lawyers Road)is a club that I played some years ago.Cant think of name but a good routing and if someone redid some bland bunkering and greens it could be really good.Cant think of the name.

In Virginia?  Westwood?  CC of Fairfax?

[Chris_Blakely]

Public courses that I have played and liked in Maryland are:

1. P.B. Dye GC
2. Whiskey Creek GC
3. Greystone GC
4. Naval Academy GC

Public / private courses that I have played and enjoyed in Virginia:

1. Primland Resort
2. Cavalier G & YC
3. Poplar Grove GC
4. Old Hickory GC
5. Virginia Beach National GC
6. Packsaddle Ridge GC
7. The Vista GL

Chris

[Will Smith]

Here is a link to my review of Univ of MD golf course:
http://punchbowlgolf.com/2009/09/university-of-md-golf-course/

I thought that before Bill Love did the work it had the potential to be the best course in the DC area. After the work.... it still does.

[Jerry Kluger]

Richard Mandel has done a terrific job at Army Navy CC in Arlington, making it a far more interesting course and a much better conditioned one as well.

[Will Smith]

I will second Jerry's praise of Richard's work at Army/Navy.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Over off Chain Bridge road(close to Lawyers Road)is a club that I played some years ago.Cant think of name but a good routing and if someone redid some bland bunkering and greens it could be really good.Cant think of the name.

In Virginia?  Westwood?  CC of Fairfax?

That's gotta be Westwood, although technically I think that stretch of 123 is Maple Ave.

[Wade Whitehead]

My favorites in Virginia, in alphabetical order: Ballyhack, The Cascades, Golden Horseshoe (Gold), Kinloch, The Olde Farm, Primland, and Royal New Kent.

I don't know Maryland nearly as well, but I'd stack these against any similar number.

WW

PS I realize my list bends towards new designs.

[Jay Flemma]

Guys, I might be wrong, but isn't ballyhack just over the border in WV?

[Wade Whitehead]

Jay:

Ballyhack is just outside Roanoke in Mount Pleasant, Virginia.  It's well inside the Virginia line.

WW

[Jay Flemma]

my bad/disregard!

[Carl Rogers]

RNK is the ultimate "love it or hate it" golf course.  I love it... my good friend despises it.
It is, however, a nice alternative to most of your typical "Virginia" courses that all seem
to blend together (Kingsmill, Golden Horseshoe).  Its a shame they are building houses
on the back nine.  It used to be cool to stand on 15 tee and look down on the horse
track.

I have played RNK once each of the last 2 years.  I think one needs to look at RNK on a hole by hole basis.  As some have said the back inine is the weaker of the 2 nines and the last 2 holes are very dissapointing simply because the start is so good.

I also believe that the course drops starting at the 11th hole.  It has a downhill tee shot (slight dogleg right) to an uphill approach that would challenge a mountain goat to climb.  Some of you may be hard pressed to find a green anywhere in the WORLD that has a steeper back to front slope and a higher percentage of unpinnabale putting surface area.  These traits may make it wild but does that make it a good hole?

I find the 8th hole a bit tedious.  The first 7 holes are terrific.

[Jay Flemma]

what about bay creek, (MD) mattaponi springs, (VA), spring creek (VA) and the beman course at cannon?  I hear the beman course is good...

[JESII]

As some have said the back inine is the weaker of the 2 nines and the last 2 holes are very dissapointing simply because the start is so good.

Carl,

What is it about #17 that is disappointing?

[Wade Whitehead]

Spring Creek is pretty fantastic.

Re: The River Course at Virginia Tech: The golf course was improved greatly by the redo a couple of years back.  If you're seeking feedback, be sure to talk to folks who have played it since.

WW

[Robert Kimball]

this is pretty timely, as I just got back from Have de Grace and played Bulle Rock on Monday. I don't have too much to add, other than the greens were in very good shape and I enjoyed the use of the topography.

In other words, it didn't seem like Dye tampered with it as much as he might have done with some of his other courses. I didn't notice any artifical mounding, or railroad ties; and the use of a natural ravine on the 13th hole was interesting. Great finishing hole, and good service.
Again, just my opinion.

[Jay Flemma]

I like BR too.  I like Beechtree a little more, and you had to love that Beechtree was $50 cheaper, but BR is solid 1-18.  Great routing, great strategies, great setting.

[Carl Rogers]

Carl,

What is it about #17 that is disappointing?
[/quote]
Jim,
I have tried to think about this for a while.  Strantz, to me, sees himself as a kind of circus performer.  RNK has a huge number a neat and fantastic tricks.  At 17, there is no over the top topography, wild sand traps and a crazy green.

18 belongs on another course all together, peninsula fairway and a bland island green.

[CJ Carder]

I've been browsing this thread now since it started and, being a VA resident and having played a high number of the courses being mentioned, I have to say I'm quite amused at some of the responses.  Y'all need to get out more.     I understand that VA isn't always high on many people's list when it comes to a place for golf trips, but I think almost every person who comes here would be surprised at the solid quality of options we have in the state.  Mind you, it's nothing that's going to match states like CA, NY, PA, or some of the other northeastern states for star-quality, but I've always felt quite fortunate to be a Virginia golfer.

That said, here's where I'd put the courses I've either played or walked before:

Top Tier
Golden Horseshoe - Gold
RTJ
Cascades
* From all indications, Kinloch would be here too, but I haven't been there yet

Really Really Solid
Mattaponi Springs
Kingsmill - River
Royal New Kent
Farmington
Westfields
Riverfront
Laurel Hill

Good - Very Fun to Play
Birdwood
Willow Oaks
Cannon Ridge
Kingsmill - Woods
Homestead - Old Course
Army/Navy - Fairfax
Cavalier Golf & Yacht Club

Worthy Weekend Plays
Virginia Beach National
Stonehouse
Golden Horseshoe - Green
Wintergreen - Stoney Creek
Draper Valley
Raspberry Falls
King Carter
Two Rivers CC
Ford's Colony - Blackheath

Honorable Mention
Kiskiack
Homestead - Lower Cascades
Augustine
James River CC
Signature @ West Neck
Bay Creek - Nicklaus
Independence
Williamsburg National (Jamestown & Yorktown)
Brickshire

Courses of Interest Yet to See
Ballyhack
The Virginian
Olde Farm
Spring Creek
CC of Virginia
Foundry
Cedar Point CC
Bide-A-Wee
Federal Club
Kinloch
River Course at VT
Primland

There are a few I've played and probably a few I still want to see that I've left off, but hopefully it will serve as a pretty good list. 

Also, I'm a bit surprised that no one has mentioned Swan Point as a top course in Maryland.  I think it's a very solid course that easily gets overlooked because of its rather remote location in Issue, MD.

[Mike Tanner]

I'm late to the discussion, but would like to offer a rebuttal to Mr. Ackerly's assertion of 04 September that there's nothing worth noting in the southeastern Virginia/Virginia Beach area.

If you you include the area from the Beach to Williamsburg, there are numerous courses to interest a golf architecture fan. Starting in the 'Burg (or just west of it), there are two Mike Strantz courses. You don't have to like 'em, but you gotta appreciate Strantz's imagination, especialy at Royal New Kent. Yeah, the last hole's weak, but it's like pulling back into the station after a roller coaster ride; you need to catch your breath.

Also in the "Burg — R.T. Jones Sr's Gold Course at the Golden Horseshoe. Again, you don't have to love his style, but it's a classic example of post-WWII course design. The way he positioned the par-3s is worth a look.

Riverfront in Suffolk may not compare with recent Doak creations, but it's an opportunity to see the work from the first phase of his career. Check out the green complexes on holes 3, 5, 12 are particularly interesting.

And in Va. Beach itself, there's the Cavalier Golf and Yacht Club, designed by Charles Banks and restovated by Lester George. If you want to see CBM/Raynor template holes including the Biarritz, Short and Redan (over water and the 18th hole to boot), you can do it here.

I haven't played a lot of courses in the rest of the state, although I just recently had the good fortune to play Pete Dye's River Course at Va. Tech and Ballyhack on two consecutive days, but I can vouch for courses of interest in my neck of the woods.
 

 

[Roger Wolfe]

I've been browsing this thread now since it started and, being a VA resident and having played a high number of the courses being mentioned, I have to say I'm quite amused at some of the responses.  Y'all need to get out more.     I understand that VA isn't always high on many people's list when it comes to a place for golf trips, but I think almost every person who comes here would be surprised at the solid quality of options we have in the state.  Mind you, it's nothing that's going to match states like CA, NY, PA, or some of the other northeastern states for star-quality, but I've always felt quite fortunate to be a Virginia golfer.

That said, here's where I'd put the courses I've either played or walked before:

Top Tier
Golden Horseshoe - Gold
RTJ
Cascades
* From all indications, Kinloch would be here too, but I haven't been there yet

Really Really Solid
Mattaponi Springs
Kingsmill - River
Royal New Kent
Farmington
Westfields
Riverfront
Laurel Hill

Good - Very Fun to Play
Birdwood
Willow Oaks
Cannon Ridge
Kingsmill - Woods
Homestead - Old Course
Army/Navy - Fairfax
Cavalier Golf & Yacht Club

Worthy Weekend Plays
Virginia Beach National
Stonehouse
Golden Horseshoe - Green
Wintergreen - Stoney Creek
Draper Valley
Raspberry Falls
King Carter
Two Rivers CC
Ford's Colony - Blackheath

Honorable Mention
Kiskiack
Homestead - Lower Cascades
Augustine
James River CC
Signature @ West Neck
Bay Creek - Nicklaus
Independence
Williamsburg National (Jamestown & Yorktown)
Brickshire

Courses of Interest Yet to See
Ballyhack
The Virginian
Olde Farm
Spring Creek
CC of Virginia
Foundry
Cedar Point CC
Bide-A-Wee
Federal Club
Kinloch
River Course at VT
Primland

There are a few I've played and probably a few I still want to see that I've left off, but hopefully it will serve as a pretty good list. 

Also, I'm a bit surprised that no one has mentioned Swan Point as a top course in Maryland.  I think it's a very solid course that easily gets overlooked because of its rather remote location in Issue, MD.

I ran Augustine from 1997 until 2001... back before the housing development and when the market was good.  It was breathtaking.
Moved on and ran Swan Point from 2001 to 2004... glad to hear you mention it... great golf course!!

[Wade Whitehead]

What is it about #17 that is disappointing?

Jim: I've heard other people say 17 at Royal New Kent doesn't stand up, but I've always liked the hole.  It's more of a parkland par 5 and may not be quite at home on the golf course, but, as a golf hole, it's not bad at all.

I think any hole placed near 18 would look bad, if only due to association.  The finishing hole is as much a blight as any of the homes they've jammed onto the property.  The "waterfall" they used to have behind the green really made for a strange ending to an otherwise fantastic golf course.

WW

[Jim Franklin]

I never understood the waterfall behind the 18th green either. a fun links style course ends with a waterfall? Never made sense, but I am sure that is what the owners wanted. I also liked the 17th hole though. Definitely a parkland style hole that may not fit the rest of the course, but not a bad hole nonetheless.

[Jay Flemma]

Mike said he did it to tweak people's noses.  When I interviewed him I asked about it (Ran might have this bit too in his interview), he said he knew he'd take heat for it, but the water hazard is the only one on the course (that and the creek it feeds that goes back down 17) and serves as the irrigation water as well.  You can also hit it in that same pond if you hit a goofy slice of ten tee, but only terrible shots find that pond off ten tee...and I mean terrible.

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