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Tom MacWood

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Re: CAVENDISH: A Dr Mac Delight
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2012, 11:36:10 PM »
The course looks like great fun, but do you think Mackenzie would be satisfied with its evolved state?

James Boon

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Re: CAVENDISH: A Dr Mac Delight
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2012, 08:34:59 AM »
Sean,

Thanks for the updated pics.

I'd forgotten about the drainage work to the greens until re re-reading back through this thread. I noticed that a few times when I repaired pitch marks, the soil just beneath the surface felt rather gritty, the only way I can describe it. Nevertheless, considering the amount of rain the course had recently, it was in remarkably good condition.

We should try and wait to play after a long dry spell next time to see just how those Derbyshire hills, and the MacKenzie green play when they aren't so wet and lush!

Cheers,

James
2022 Highlights: Hollinwell (Notts), Brora, Reay

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: CAVENDISH: A Dr Mac Delight
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2012, 12:08:38 PM »
We have had a very wet spring and early summer in the North West and Cavendish will get a lot more rain than even we have had on the Cheshire plain.

Sean_A

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Re: CAVENDISH: A Dr Mac Delight
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2012, 01:46:24 AM »
The course looks like great fun, but do you think Mackenzie would be satisfied with its evolved state?

Tommy Mac

No, I don't think Dr Mac would be satisfied to see all the fairway bunkers removed and some of the greens shrunk.  But I am also not sure how satisfied he was with the course when it was completed as I don't think his initial design(s) were accepted.  The club is and was probably too modest for Dr Mac's ambitions.

Boony - yes, lets try to do Cavendish in Aug/Sept.  Shoot me a few Sundays then which worlkfor you.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Bamburgh Castle, Erewash, Gullane 2, The Loop x2 & Crystal Downs

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: CAVENDISH: A Dr Mac Delight
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2012, 07:56:26 AM »
The course looks like great fun, but do you think Mackenzie would be satisfied with its evolved state?

Tommy Mac

No, I don't think Dr Mac would be satisfied to see all the fairway bunkers removed and some of the greens shrunk.  But I am also not sure how satisfied he was with the course when it was completed as I don't think his initial design(s) were accepted.  The club is and was probably too modest for Dr Mac's ambitions.
Boony - yes, lets try to do Cavendish in Aug/Sept.  Shoot me a few Sundays then which worlkfor you.

Ciao

I'm not so sure about that statement Sean... I believe there are a couple of movers in the club who are right now pushing to reinstate MacKenzie elements to the course... I will need to make a visit soon...


Sean_A

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Re: CAVENDISH: A Dr Mac Delight
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2012, 02:22:59 AM »
The course looks like great fun, but do you think Mackenzie would be satisfied with its evolved state?

Tommy Mac

No, I don't think Dr Mac would be satisfied to see all the fairway bunkers removed and some of the greens shrunk.  But I am also not sure how satisfied he was with the course when it was completed as I don't think his initial design(s) were accepted.  The club is and was probably too modest for Dr Mac's ambitions.
Boony - yes, lets try to do Cavendish in Aug/Sept.  Shoot me a few Sundays then which worlkfor you.

Ciao

I'm not so sure about that statement Sean... I believe there are a couple of movers in the club who are right now pushing to reinstate MacKenzie elements to the course... I will need to make a visit soon...



Ally

Well I hope the movers can convince the club that there is a better course on the plan than in the ground. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Bamburgh Castle, Erewash, Gullane 2, The Loop x2 & Crystal Downs

Sean_A

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Re: CAVENDISH: A Dr Mac Delight
« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2013, 07:04:32 AM »
Ally

Boony and I had a go yesterday.  Conditions are still very disappointing and nowhere near matching the quality of the design.  Maybe there are changes afoot, but I couldn't see any noticeable improvement.

All, please see the updated tour.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Bamburgh Castle, Erewash, Gullane 2, The Loop x2 & Crystal Downs

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: CAVENDISH: A Dr Mac Delight
« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2013, 01:18:21 PM »
Ally

Boony and I had a go yesterday.  Conditions are still very disappointing and nowhere near matching the quality of the design.  Maybe there are changes afoot, but I couldn't see any noticeable improvement.

All, please see the updated tour.

Ciao

Yes Sean,

I believe the movers were left with nowhere to move to... On the backburner for now I believe...

Sean_A

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Re: CAVENDISH: A Dr Mac Delight
« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2013, 01:41:50 AM »
Ally

Boony and I had a go yesterday.  Conditions are still very disappointing and nowhere near matching the quality of the design.  Maybe there are changes afoot, but I couldn't see any noticeable improvement.

All, please see the updated tour.

Ciao

Yes Sean,

I believe the movers were left with nowhere to move to... On the backburner for now I believe...

Yes, I must admit the club/course has the outward appearance of being in long-term decline.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Bamburgh Castle, Erewash, Gullane 2, The Loop x2 & Crystal Downs

Sean_A

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Re: CAVENDISH: A Dr Mac Delight
« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2014, 08:08:33 AM »
I finally played Cavendish in decent conditions!  The course was still lush, but the greens were firm and running close to the their max without being stupid.  What a difference!  I was astounded and utterly confounded by the some of the putts.  It rather reminded me of Beau Desert and that is high praise.  I realize Cavendish is a bit off the beaten path, but a trip to the Peak District is a great pleasure in itself.  A game at wonderful Cavendish is the icing on the cake.

See Updated pix.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Bamburgh Castle, Erewash, Gullane 2, The Loop x2 & Crystal Downs

James Boon

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Re: CAVENDISH: A Dr Mac Delight
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2014, 02:50:42 PM »
Sean,

Glad you managed to get to play Cavendish in the firm conditions I remember from my many rounds there as a junior golfer. It is quite a difference to the wet and receptive conditions of most of my / your / our recent rounds there. Some of the greens really take on a life of their own, as do a few of the fairways, especially 16!

I recall seeing an article in a magazine recently that they had done some work to the bunkers around 4? The strip bunker up the right which was always washed out was turned into a grassy hollow with a small pot bunker at the rear end of this? Have you any photos of the 4th green?

Cheers,

James
2022 Highlights: Hollinwell (Notts), Brora, Reay

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Sean_A

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Re: CAVENDISH: A Dr Mac Delight
« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2014, 03:02:22 PM »
Sean,

Glad you managed to get to play Cavendish in the firm conditions I remember from my many rounds there as a junior golfer. It is quite a difference to the wet and receptive conditions of most of my / your / our recent rounds there. Some of the greens really take on a life of their own, as do a few of the fairways, especially 16!

I recall seeing an article in a magazine recently that they had done some work to the bunkers around 4? The strip bunker up the right which was always washed out was turned into a grassy hollow with a small pot bunker at the rear end of this? Have you any photos of the 4th green?

Cheers,

James

Boony

No pic of #4, but I can confirm the strip bunker is no more.  I also think new sand is in at least some of the bunkers.  I didn't really notice until 16, the sand is definitely whiter.  The 3rd hole is far wider now.  The fairway isn't wider, but the first cut of rough down the right is about an extra 25 yards.  I think the club is trying to encourage people to play that direction away from the 2nd fairway.  

There is talk of shifting the fairway corridor more left on #16 - bring OOB more into play and less traffic down the right where the path is.  There is also talk of different bunkering on #6.  

Mind you, I found out there are only two greenstaff with a part time kid helping out in summer.  Its an incredible amount of work for such a small crew.  That said, I think the club in the process of forming an artisan group to help out.  

All in all, very impressive and a huge eye opener concerning the greens.  They quite simply do not look anything like as severe as they are. One must chip, putt and watch others to get an idea of their quality.  What a revelation.

Ciao
« Last Edit: July 14, 2014, 04:14:10 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2022: Bamburgh Castle, Erewash, Gullane 2, The Loop x2 & Crystal Downs

Colin Macqueen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CAVENDISH: A Dr Mac Delight
« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2014, 05:02:57 PM »
Sean,

"All in all, very impressive and a huge eye opener concerning the greens.  What a revelation."

And Mackenzie might have praised the keepers of the green whilst quoting Revelation 2:3 "And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted."

What I found telling about your report is just how, with relatively few resources, a course can start to be returned to the architects intent if the will and desire is there. I always imagined that any course would be zealous in jealously guarding and promoting their designer's plan doesn't seem so though. Architects must tear their hair out!

Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CAVENDISH: A Dr Mac Delight
« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2014, 05:24:38 PM »
Just used the search function to read more about the course and there was a thread from a couple of years ago discussing Cavendish selling itself to group on. A couple of years on despite Sean's positive comments about the course (it's been a good spring / early summer for courses), it still seems precarious to me. 2 green staff is not sustainable and the course will only decay.

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: CAVENDISH: A Dr Mac Delight
« Reply #39 on: July 13, 2014, 12:16:28 PM »
I was at Cavendish on Friday at the same event as Sean and concur with his thoughts on the greens. Such fun!

The club has clearly been on its uppers for some time, but the course is in amazing condition considering onlly two staff look after it. Cavendish struggles for local members because Buxton is a small impoverished town in the middle of the hills with terrible weather most of the time and two golf clubs. That is almost certainly one too many. Unfortunately Cavendish - with the better course by far - is the club which is the more vulnerable.

All fans of golf course architecture should support Cavendish by visiting or considering country membership. It is amazingly cheap but a few more country members would make a massive difference to the club.

Unfortunately I don't qualify as I live only 15 miles away! I do play there as often as possible, however. On a fine day the golf is exhilerating.

Jon Wiggett

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Re: CAVENDISH: A Dr Mac Delight
« Reply #40 on: July 15, 2014, 04:28:53 PM »
2 green staff is not sustainable and the course will only decay.

Ryan,

what facts and actual experience of the case at Cavendish are you basing this statement on? I admit it is not usual but why can it not be sustainable. How would having more greenstaff that the club cannot afford be more sustainable?

Jon

Ryan Coles

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Re: CAVENDISH: A Dr Mac Delight
« Reply #41 on: July 15, 2014, 04:38:47 PM »
Common sense Jon.

Two green staff on a course other than some goat field is not conducive to even basic playing conditions. Add in paternity, sickness and holiday and you have a course decaying.

You can find me some tin pot example in the highlands, but most have 4-6 green staff for a reason.

James Boon

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Re: CAVENDISH: A Dr Mac Delight
« Reply #42 on: July 15, 2014, 05:56:26 PM »
I recently came across an article regarding Cavendish in a magazine called Pitchcare (Apr/May 2014), some of the key points go on to explain the numbers of staff and the reasons for this beyond just money:
- The club has never had a large greenkeeping staff
- Currently at 2 full time, with a couple of casual brought in over the summer.
- The climate there means a very short growing season (mid May to end Sept) which is a reason for only needing the small greenkeeping staff.
- Even at the height of the growing season they are able to cover all mowing operations, cutting the rough, fairways, tees and approaches twice a week, with the greens cut or rolled six times a week.
- Members volunteer their services to help out, especially with some of the winter projects such as the recent work to the 4th greenside bunkers.
In addition to this:
- They are planning a number of course improvements heading into their centenary year in 2025, with the help of member and golf course architect Jonathan Gaunt.
- A lot of this will be clearing areas of vegetation that have become overgrown due to greenstaff numbers.
- All bunkers will be redesigned / remodelled.
- Some new tees.
- Improved drainage!
- JCB, "keen to get into the golf market" (which I'm sure Robin Hiseman knows all about  ::) ) have donated a small excavator and dumper truck to help with these works.

I've always found Cavendish to be in good condition, especially considering the cost of a green fee and the number of staff and as a junior playing there regularly as I did, it always had the best greens we played all year. My only issue in recent years has been the amount of rain the Buxton climate has received, especially through the summer months, has made the course very lush and receptive, which is why I'm so glad Sean has got to experience it in a dryer and firmer state.

I understand the concerns, and I have them myself, but fingers crossed all will be well at this delightful MacKenzie course!

Cheers,

James
2022 Highlights: Hollinwell (Notts), Brora, Reay

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Ryan Coles

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Re: CAVENDISH: A Dr Mac Delight
« Reply #43 on: July 15, 2014, 06:00:08 PM »
Right. So two greenstaff is actually four greenstaff. Plus free labour from the members.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 06:02:22 PM by Ryan Coles »

Niall C

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Re: CAVENDISH: A Dr Mac Delight
« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2014, 01:49:39 PM »
I was at Cavendish on Friday at the same event as Sean and concur with his thoughts on the greens. Such fun!

The club has clearly been on its uppers for some time, but the course is in amazing condition considering onlly two staff look after it. Cavendish struggles for local members because Buxton is a small impoverished town in the middle of the hills with terrible weather most of the time and two golf clubs. That is almost certainly one too many. Unfortunately Cavendish - with the better course by far - is the club which is the more vulnerable.

All fans of golf course architecture should support Cavendish by visiting or considering country membership. It is amazingly cheap but a few more country members would make a massive difference to the club.

Unfortunately I don't qualify as I live only 15 miles away! I do play there as often as possible, however. On a fine day the golf is exhilerating.

Duncan

You refer to Cavendish being the the most vulnerable of the two clubs in town, why is that ? Surely it can't be because more golfers want to be a member of the club with the inferior course ?

Niall

Jon Wiggett

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Re: CAVENDISH: A Dr Mac Delight
« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2014, 02:44:37 AM »
James,

thanks for the informative answer. This is the way many clubs do/used to work.

Ryan, your parents must be very proud.

Ryan Coles

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Re: CAVENDISH: A Dr Mac Delight
« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2014, 04:23:05 AM »
James,

thanks for the informative answer. This is the way many clubs do/used to work.

Ryan, your parents must be very proud.

Jon

My apologies. My references were inappropriate.

As far as I know, my parents aren't.

I'd be interested in hearing how two greenstaff alone would maintain an inland course in England during the growing season. What would a typical fortnight work pattern look like? How would this be impacted by holiday, paternity and sickness?

All these remarkable pitchcare mag stories remind me of Monty Pythons the four Yorkshireman. ''Luxury, we only have a flymo and a sheep''

Cavendish agree with me hence summer workers and volunteers.

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CAVENDISH: A Dr Mac Delight
« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2014, 06:35:17 AM »
I was at Cavendish on Friday at the same event as Sean and concur with his thoughts on the greens. Such fun!

The club has clearly been on its uppers for some time, but the course is in amazing condition considering onlly two staff look after it. Cavendish struggles for local members because Buxton is a small impoverished town in the middle of the hills with terrible weather most of the time and two golf clubs. That is almost certainly one too many. Unfortunately Cavendish - with the better course by far - is the club which is the more vulnerable.

All fans of golf course architecture should support Cavendish by visiting or considering country membership. It is amazingly cheap but a few more country members would make a massive difference to the club.

Unfortunately I don't qualify as I live only 15 miles away! I do play there as often as possible, however. On a fine day the golf is exhilerating.

Duncan

You refer to Cavendish being the the most vulnerable of the two clubs in town, why is that ? Surely it can't be because more golfers want to be a member of the club with the inferior course ?

Niall

Niall,

You must be well aware that quality of architecture is just one of many factors which golfers take into account when deciding upon a club to join.

Indeed, while we on here rave about places like Cavendish, many golfers look at such courses with disdain.

Only 5600 yards? Not a proper course.
Too easy - a wedge into most greens!
A bit tatty around the edges.
A goat track!

These are just a few comments I've heard about Cavendish from avid golfers. Not everybody gets it!

The other course in Buxton is perfectly OK but a little dull. A bog-standard parkland course. Lots of people like that sort of thing.



Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: CAVENDISH: A Dr Mac Delight
« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2014, 03:16:35 PM »
Ryan,

As James' post explained with Cavendish the two greenstaff keep on top of cutting okay even in the main growing season and when the growth slows down they will certainly have time for other things. I do not see anything wrong in members doing tasks such as bunker raking, divot filing, ball washer duties, etc. or the club having an artisans membership if this makes the club financially viable or gives the members a better connection with their club. I have said on previous threads, one of the problems, IMO that many clubs have these days is they have turned a loyal membership into a paying client base.

I am genuinely interested in you answers to the questions I asked.

Oh, Flymo and a sheep. Luxury!!! We had to eat the grass short ourselves  ;)

Jon

Ryan Coles

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Re: CAVENDISH: A Dr Mac Delight
« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2014, 04:38:13 PM »
Ryan,

As James' post explained with Cavendish the two greenstaff keep on top of cutting okay even in the main growing season and when the growth slows down they will certainly have time for other things. I do not see anything wrong in members doing tasks such as bunker raking, divot filing, ball washer duties, etc. or the club having an artisans membership if this makes the club financially viable or gives the members a better connection with their club. I have said on previous threads, one of the problems, IMO that many clubs have these days is they have turned a loyal membership into a paying client base.

I am genuinely interested in you answers to the questions I asked.

Oh, Flymo and a sheep. Luxury!!! We had to eat the grass short ourselves  ;)

Jon

Neither do I. Indeed with two greenstaff, I see it as essential. So do Cavendish. Therefore it's become a moot point in relation to this specific Club. 

In answer to your questions: The same as you. None. I should have been clear that I was thinking in general terms to save the pedants amongst us from the time honoured highlighting of the 1 in a 1000 exception to the rule.

Allow me therefore to quantify: In general terms, an English club with an inland course operating SOLELY with two greenkeepers during the growing season whilst attempting to compete in a saturated market, is in the latter stages of death cycle.

Re: your final point about Clubs turning loyal members into paying clients.

Why would a members club do this?

Specifically, what is it that they have done to change this?

I think you have this the wrong way round. The membership has changed the clubs. The clubs haven't changed the outlook of members. The same loyal members are still around, supporting everything, coming to divoting evenings etc. they are just twenty years older and sadly dying out. It is a generation thing. The new golfers see themselves as clients, rather than any desire from the Clubs. The 'me' culture pervades most aspects of modern life and golf clubs are no exception.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2014, 04:45:23 PM by Ryan Coles »

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