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Jason Topp

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Re: GCA "Blank Stares"
« Reply #75 on: August 25, 2009, 11:28:35 AM »
Hazards should tempt, and not exist primarily to punish.



TEPaul

Re: GCA "Blank Stares"
« Reply #76 on: August 25, 2009, 11:28:42 AM »
Shivas:

I very much doubt you are familiar with this either about NGLA but no proper Eastern lad (or any other Proper lad, for that matter) is ever allowed to even lay eyes on NGLA BEFORE he is taken "into town" (that would be New York City) perhaps by an older brother or favorite cousin or formal mentor to lose his virginity and have his first few stiff drinks of the likes of RYE whiskey. After that it is common that he is taught a basic working relationship with one of Harry Colt's guns.

ONLY THEN, can he be introduced to NGLA and hopefully become intimately familiar with it!

I am quite sure Charles Blair MacDonald would approve of all this wholeheartedly. Some even say he came up with the curriculum due to his Dark Years in Chicago and what he came to learn when he relocated to THE East in 1900!

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA "Blank Stares"
« Reply #77 on: August 25, 2009, 11:29:01 AM »

A few gca related "concepts" which are confused and sometimes bring "blank stares":


Firm and fast



This is the runaway winner at my place.It usually gets followed by "Why would you want the grass to turn brown?It will look horrible".

TEPaul

Re: GCA "Blank Stares"
« Reply #78 on: August 25, 2009, 11:36:16 AM »
David Stamm:

Those are some excellent thoughts and adages on life in general but I was taught the best working adage with golf course architecture is:

"Always remember to know what you don't know."


That Man above all golf architectural Men, Bill Coore, told me that many years ago.


To which I said: "Well Bill, how the fuck can I KNOW what I DON'T Know?"

With that he thought about it for his typical 23 seconds of silence and then offered:

"Not a bad question at all, and I suppose I would say: "Just remember you may never know it all; I certainly don't think I ever will.""



 :-*
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 11:38:17 AM by TEPaul »

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA "Blank Stares"
« Reply #79 on: August 25, 2009, 11:37:49 AM »
He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool; avoid him.
He who knows not and knows that he knows not is a student; teach him.
He who knows and knows not that he knows is asleep; wake him.
He who knows and knows that he knows is a wise man; follow him.

Man oh man, I do not think we could disagree more on this issue.
Some of my best golf friends have no clue about architecture...should I not be friends with them because they don't know what a biarritz is?
Teach him? Some people don't want to be taught and do not care - witness the Scott Warren example..."What the f are you talking about - you're away" to me that summed it up...and sometimes those guys are the most fun to play with.

I have played golf with architecture critics, I have played golf with guys wearing t-shirts, jeans, and tobacco stains who couldn't name a single architect.  I have had fun with both, and part of the beauty of the game is that there is space for all types of people.

What bothers me is the apparent objective of "total architecture enlightenment for all"





Give it a rest, turbo. You're taking this way too seriously.


You're right, some don't want to be taught.  ;)
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA "Blank Stares"
« Reply #80 on: August 25, 2009, 11:40:04 AM »
Here in the midwest, National Golf Links is the biggest blank stare generator of them all.

Almost nobody here has heard of it, let alone played it.

Same apparently holds true in the Deep South.

A friend was invited up to LI and told he could play any course up there.My friend is ~ 67,has played golf for ~ 60.He's played in several Am's and Mid Am's and 1 Senior Open.He asked me my suggestion and when I said "NGLA",he looked at me like I was speaking Swahili.

That said,he played both NGLA and Shinnecock and enjoyed NGLA more.


Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA "Blank Stares"
« Reply #81 on: August 25, 2009, 11:40:36 AM »
These are great. It is amazing how few people exist at any given club you can discuss architecture with. I am sure doak would love to know he is a top never heard of in the general golfing world unlike Fazio Rees etc. Actually Chambers has now been discovered by the Tigers. We are filling up two days of tee times there next week.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA "Blank Stares"
« Reply #82 on: August 25, 2009, 11:40:56 AM »
I'm a golfing anorak (geek). All my close pals know I'm a golfing anorak. So anytime when I start to talk about design issues they roll their eyes as if to say "shut the f*** up, and get a round in".  Many of these guys are better golfers than me and even the ones that aren't enjoy the game in general and various courses in particular, all just as much as I do. The fact that they wouldn't know a biaritz from a redan doesn't bother them at all. They don't have any real interest in design at all, they just want to play.

Should we force them to learn ? Well obviously not. Would it be a good thing if they, and by "they" I mean the golfing public in general and not just my pals, know a bit more about golf course design ? I would say undoubtedly. The reason I say that is that is that golf club committees are packed with guys like these. Guys who make uninformed decisions on changes to their course and how courses is set up. Often these decisions are to the detriment of the course and everyone who plays it.

The only way I can see to raise the general awareness of good golf design, is to have more discussions like we have on here, but have them in the mainstream golfing media.

In the meantime I'm admitting to no one that I meet up with guys I've met on the internet.

Niall  

TEPaul

Re: GCA "Blank Stares"
« Reply #83 on: August 25, 2009, 11:47:04 AM »
"You're right, some don't want to be taught.   :)"


DavidS:

Unfortunately, that kind of thing does happen and even more than most of us like to admit. When it does happen then it is pretty much mandatory that those people be disinherited, and sent earlier rather than later into the military, the clergy or to be adventurers in Africa or China!

This kind of cultural process is actually where that famous remark "You Can Never Go Home Again" came from!!

There is a traditional method that the best families used to test their one and two year olds for "Blank Stare" potential I can explain to you if you would like.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 11:49:09 AM by TEPaul »

JSPayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA "Blank Stares"
« Reply #84 on: August 25, 2009, 11:48:07 AM »
Ryan,

The debate seems to now have turned to the "golf as art" aspect of your analysis.

True, golfers don't NEED to understand everything about GCA. They don't NEED to be taught to appreciate the exact same things most of the posters on this site appreciate.

Just because John Smith loves his home course with grandious waterfalls and loads of annual flower beds and overwatered dark green lush fairways doesn't mean he's "wrong." And I hope no one on here is really advocating blatantly telling him such. Because you're right....that could ruin a lifetime of fun golf for some sensitive golfers.

However, any art, including golf architecture, should not be shyed away from simply because there are those who "don't get it" or "don't care to get it." I personally don't care much for paintings...."museum art" in general really bores me. And I'm sure art afficiandos would be appaled at me. However, I don't mind listening to someone talk about it occasionally. I do visit museums on vacation, and have actually found a few pieces I did like, for random reasons. And I like finding people who know more about those particular pieces who can enlighten me further. And afterwords, on rare occassions, I actually go seeking out more work from that particular artist.

I don't enjoy myself any less if someone is shocked I don't like Monet. I just shrug and move on to the photography exhibit, where I really enjoy myself.

Appreciation of art is a discussion, and a personal preference, and I don't think this thread is advocating force-fed education of the popular ideals posted here to the masses. However, the occassional discussion would be nice. And, as the title of the thread presents, it's tough to have a discussion when all you get is a "blank stare." So if anything, all everyone is advocating here is for fans of the sport, game and art alike to each take a little interest in ALL aspects of golf, to continue to promote growth, enjoyment and appreciation of the game. GCA is only one part of that equation.
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

TEPaul

Re: GCA "Blank Stares"
« Reply #85 on: August 25, 2009, 12:10:33 PM »
"Translation: Hell, they all can't be good."


DavidS:

Of course not; it's just that there are an awful lot of people (golfers) with really bad taste and they too must be considered with what is designed and built! There is even a wonderful dual purpose to this which is the more people the likes of us can look down up with disdain, the better it is for US, as it makes US feel like the "Anointed Few."
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 12:16:20 PM by TEPaul »

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA "Blank Stares"
« Reply #86 on: August 25, 2009, 12:24:14 PM »
On the plus side I think the commentators talk much more about architecture and informing the audience on the strategic elements of the course than say 5-10 years ago and more people, albeit still a small number are interested in 'the golf course'. Magazines could do more, I know from my point of view I have little interest in certain sections of magazines (tuition) and i skip those as I sift through looking for the next awesome pic. I suppose some skip the pics. :'(
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA "Blank Stares"
« Reply #87 on: August 25, 2009, 12:25:14 PM »
In Quebec, you get blank stare forever...

outside of Augusta national, Pebble Beach and crappy courses in Myrtle Beach... you'll have a hard time having a GCA conversation.

Tillinghast ????
Raynor ????
Mackenzie ??? architect of Augusta National... ok

Walked a course with a 20 year experience pro and a super, and the more I talked... the more I felt like it was as if I was coming from Mars or something.

Here's my favorite: runaway green

was wearing my Sand Hills cap at a golf course the other day and somebody went: Do you also sell topsoil or you sell only sand???



Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA "Blank Stares"
« Reply #88 on: August 25, 2009, 12:32:08 PM »
You now all know what an art critic feels like...

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA "Blank Stares"
« Reply #89 on: August 25, 2009, 12:38:31 PM »
Cheater line

Au contraire, Jeff.

That gets massive recognition!  It's happened 4 or 5 times this month alone...
 

Three other members of this esteemed discussion group are prepared to testify that, on the 4th green Sunday, I had to RE-MARK and RE-PLACE my ball because, when I looked down at it, I saw the damned Cheater Line (the built-in one, put there by the Titleist company; I do NOT put Cheater Lines on my golf balls!), and it was at about a 27-degree angle to the line of my putt -- or, at least, at about a 27-degree angle to the line I'd chosen ... meaning that, based on my standard (mis)reading that day, it was really about a 32-degree (or maybe 22-degree) angle to the line of the putt.

I generally place my ball, prior to putting it, with an unblemished white surface (no writing!) looking me in the eyes -- but I'm not the most disciplined guy in the world, and there are times when I just put the damned thing down however it wants to be put down.

That's what I did on No. 4 Sunday. And there was that Cheater Line, smiling at me semi-sideways.

I re-marked, re-placed, and muttered something about my over-sensitivity to Shivas!

Missed the putt, too. Didn't I?

« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 12:48:47 PM by Dan Kelly »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA "Blank Stares"
« Reply #90 on: August 25, 2009, 01:03:40 PM »

Your wine analogy deserves to be dissected further. Sure you're no wine aficiando. It's red or white, good or bad, and you don't really care to be educated further.



Reminds me of a story, back in the early '80s, when I was working for a defense contractor and we traveled to Warner Robins Air Logistics Center (Central Georgia) for pricing negotiations.

The Holiday Inn was the 5-star hotel in town so we stay there and at dinner, an associate of mine wanted to order a glass of wine with dinner.  He mentions this to the waitress by saying "I would like a glass of wine, I'll have a glass of burgundy (remember, this is the early '80s)" and she comments "Oh, I don't think we have that, we only have white and red" ... 
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA "Blank Stares"
« Reply #91 on: August 25, 2009, 01:16:40 PM »
Maybe some of these blanks stares are the result of:

1) a large portion of the Great U.S. courses are private and built +100 years ago;
2) until recently, nearly all US Majors were held on Great Private US courses;
3) between 1945 and 1980 there were precious few Great US courses built. 

So the golfing public didn't have access to the great courses, different conditions, architects, etc. until this recent resurgence.  Maybe in 20 years more golfers will care about gca, hell even SI includes a smattering of gca-stuff in their Major preview articles. 

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA "Blank Stares"
« Reply #92 on: August 25, 2009, 01:31:33 PM »
This thread reminds of what my beer afficianado friends (myself included) would say about many of you as it concerns beer on the 19th hole.

Most of you probably throw back Pilsner swill by the bucket...you know that yellow piss beer otherwise known as Miller, Bud, Heinkein, Coors, Michelob, etc., etc.  And you're all probably thrilled to death by it.

Meanwhile someone like me and my beer snob buddies would not only not buy it, but usually won't even drink it when offered for free.  The best beers look and have the viscosity of used motor oil.... Dark, thick, chewey and just plain awesome.

And varying beer styles out there are numberous, but I doubt more than 5% of beer consumers even know this:

Stouts, Porters, IPA, Imperial stouts, Dopplebocks, Brown Ales, Steam beer, Barleywine, Double IPAs, etc, etc.

On the Doak Scale as a comparison, i would bet most GCA.com members drink Doak Scale 1-3 beers and love every last drop.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 01:35:09 PM by Kalen Braley »

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA "Blank Stares"
« Reply #93 on: August 25, 2009, 01:41:55 PM »
Kalen,

Dark and chewy beer is delicious.

But after walking 18 holes on a 90 degree day, there is nothing better than a nice cold bottle of Yellow Piss.  It has its place.

Anthony Gray

Re: GCA "Blank Stares"
« Reply #94 on: August 25, 2009, 01:48:54 PM »
Kalen,

Dark and chewy beer is delicious.

But after walking 18 holes on a 90 degree day, there is nothing better than a nice cold bottle of Yellow Piss.  It has its place.


  Answers like this keep me coming back to this site. I see posters claim the end is near all the time.......but with this wisdom the DG will go on forever. Thans J.

  Anthony


Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA "Blank Stares"
« Reply #95 on: August 25, 2009, 01:56:37 PM »
Kalen,

Dark and chewy beer is delicious.

But after walking 18 holes on a 90 degree day, there is nothing better than a nice cold bottle of Yellow Piss.  It has its place.

Well thats why i said I will almost always not drink it....agreed!!!  But I'd rather drink a nice heffeweizzen or an IPA when its hot out!! :)

Jason McNamara

Re: GCA "Blank Stares"
« Reply #96 on: August 25, 2009, 02:00:40 PM »
Meanwhile someone like me and my beer snob buddies would not only not buy it, but usually won't even drink it when offered for free.  The best beers look and have the viscosity of used motor oil.... Dark, thick, chewey and just plain awesome.

Kalen, I think you need to have a Guinness at the turn next time you're enjoying a round in Houston in the middle of August.   :P

I am not saying you need to check a horse for diabetes and drink a Corona - try one of these:
http://www.saintarnold.com/beers/lawnmower.html

Anthony Gray

Re: GCA "Blank Stares"
« Reply #97 on: August 25, 2009, 02:01:08 PM »

  Garland puts red wine in the refrigerator.

  Anthony


Mike Wagner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA "Blank Stares"
« Reply #98 on: August 25, 2009, 02:03:29 PM »
"uneven lies are fun!"

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GCA "Blank Stares"
« Reply #99 on: August 25, 2009, 02:10:29 PM »
Phew, this thread was real drag til someone mentioned beer.

I too enjoy the finer beers of this world.  Unfortunately, England, a country with one of the finest heritages of brewing in the world, has gone heavily toward lager or spickety ales called "smooth" (or even bitter!) for some strange reason. It used to be that every club or pub had at least one fine pull ale.  These days, if a decent ale is on offer, the popularity of proper ale is so low that often times the barrel isn't emptied within the life of the beer and one OFTEN gets a dodgy pint.  It also happens that the beer isn't well kept or the pipes are aren't cleaned etc etc.  Despite the onslaught of micro breweries, these are dark days for real ale.  Witness the love for that Scottish junk(Belhaven?) by many on this site.  Anyway, if you can't beat them, find a few lagers which hit home.  One of the greatest things about Canada (well behind hockey mind you) is their lager - simply the best. Unfortunately it is out of fashion these days in England.  No room in the cooler for all alcho-pops on sale.

Garland

Don't worry - I too put red wine in the fridge.  Sometimes, it has to be done.

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 02:13:32 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Blackmoor, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Winterfield & Alnmouth

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