[Anthony Gray]

  Chambers Bay

[Bill Brightly]

"Have you ever considered playing the forward tees? (Unsaid: "because you can barely hit a drive 200 yards...")

[Tim Bert]

I can't believe that so many of you talk to people about golf!!

Trade a few trusted cell phone #s here, exchange some instant messages, and otherwise keep your thoughts to yourself. I find it much more interesting and insightful to listen to others' experiences rather than sharing mine.

 Plus they look at you crazy when you tell them that you are going back to Bandon for the 4th time but you have no interest in joining them at the RTJ golf trail next month.

[Richard Choi]

All you have to ask is "do you like tree lined golf courses?"...

[Bill_McBride]

JS,

Great topic! I know that blank stare! Here are my top ten

Macdonald
Road Hole
Biarritz
Eden
Short (The scratch players at my club think we should take out the nursery and add a new tee 30 yds back...)
Alps
Raynor
National
Doak
C & C

(They know Redan)

And I play a MacRaynor...

Bill, how do they know the Redan?   Interesting.

[JLahrman]

My wife and I moved to Berkeley at the beginning of the year.  Discussions like this remind me of the overly-educated 30ish professional students cropped up in the Ethiopian restaurants around town, wondering amongst themselves why the whole world isn't riding bicycles.  No matter how enlightened you are, at some point you've got to cease being surprised, and realize that you're the one urinating into the breeze.  The more conversations you have with others about GCA, the more baffled you're going to be.  Pick your spots.  I'm one who cares about GCA, finds the principles interesting, and enjoys the educational aspect of this site, but even as an interested party I don't read GCA books and can't run through bunkering styles of all the historical archies.  Some of the threads I see on here are so inaccessible to my meager brain, I just skip over them.

Wouldn't it be great if, by the time we're all dead, twice as many golfers cared about GCA?  It would be a fantastic achievement.  It would also increase the number of GCA-concerned golfers in the golfing public from 1% to 2%.

[JSPayne]

I guess I may be setting my expectations too high......or maybe we all set our standards too low.

I mean, if the majority of golfers DID actually know at least a little about all these things, don't you think the game would be heading in a much better direction?

So this post really begs the question......how do we get the majority of the golf population to pay attention to and at least try to understand a little bit about GCA, architects themselves and the newly constructed and rennovated courses that we all agree are bringing a fresh look and new attention to golf course design?

Then again, maybe it's better people don't know about all these great courses......cause if everyone did know about Bandon there'd probably be people waiting at the proverbial gates (like at Bethpage or Torrey or the Old Course) to just get a shot at a handful of tee times not reserved one year in advance.......

More "blank stares"....

Putting from 10 yards off the green
Not hitting driver off every tee
Walking-only golf course (*GASP*)
Dormant grass
Hickorys and featheries
Penal vs. Strategic

[Bill Brightly]

[/quote]

Bill, how do they know the Redan?   Interesting.
[/quote]

Bill

They "know" Redan up until the point I ask them if they know where the original one is...and they are sorry the topic came up when I tell them all about the Seige of Sevastopol...

[Lynn_Shackelford]

When it first opend, I played Rustic Canyon with a member from Riviera CC.  After a few holes, he said, "this place is really going to be good when the trees grow in."

Why, if learning more about the subject would enhance one's pleasure, don't people spend the time to grow in their golfing knowledge is something that disappoints me about golfers in general.

[Bradley Anderson]

"I'm going on a golf trip to Nebraska"

"I'm playing golf w/ 12 guys from the Internet, most of whom I've never met before."

Ten bucks says you will wish you never went on this trip.

[JLahrman]

I guess I may be setting my expectations too high......or maybe we all set our standards too low.

I mean, if the majority of golfers DID actually know at least a little about all these things, don't you think the game would be heading in a much better direction?

So this post really begs the question......how do we get the majority of the golf population to pay attention to and at least try to understand a little bit about GCA, architects themselves and the newly constructed and rennovated courses that we all agree are bringing a fresh look and new attention to golf course design?

Majority is way too high a goal.  I really do think doubling the number of people who are about GCA is an ambitious although achievable goal, but that would leave us way, way, way, way, way short of 50%.  You have to fundamentally change how people look at the game of golf.

Just look down the list of topics on the first page.  The only ones that would interest non-GCA types are the ones prefaced O/T.  We're having discussions that non-GCA types can't even begin to comprehend, let alone become interested in.   There is not an easy solution to the educational component for somebody who is not interested in learning.  And most people aren't.

Honestly, the best example is that Hockey Fights website that gets posted every once in awhile.  There are a bunch of hockey fight dorks sitting at home thinking how much better hockey would be if more people cared about the fights the way they did.

[Mark Bourgeois]

No less depressing for being OT: Open Championship.

[Bill Brightly]

I guess I may be setting my expectations too high......or maybe we all set our standards too low.

I mean, if the majority of golfers DID actually know at least a little about all these things, don't you think the game would be heading in a much better direction?

So this post really begs the question......how do we get the majority of the golf population to pay attention to and at least try to understand a little bit about GCA, architects themselves and the newly constructed and rennovated courses that we all agree are bringing a fresh look and new attention to golf course design?

JS,

On a serious note, I really believe that those of us who really love architecture have an obligation to at least bring the topic up with our buddies (and drop it if they have absolutely no interest.) I played the game for 30 years with NO CLUE and feel very grateful to the guy at my club who opened my eyes, and thereby, GREATLY enhanced my enjoyment of the game. And I reallly do believe this will happen to a small % of the guys I play with, so I give it a shot from time to time. When I see the Blank Stare, I try to drop it.

On my home course, I was Grounds Chair and part of our restoration committee, so I pushed this as far as I dared, because we were doing a long term restoration, spending a significant amount of money,  and I felt it was my duty to explain WHY we were making these changes, especially when so many said "our course is fine as it is, why change it?"

Plus, you never know where the next latent GCA nut is lurking!

[Kalen Braley]

Most of these terms don't surprise me....

But what is shocking is how many golfers I've ran into who've never heard of Cypress Point.  Of course then when I say its near Pebble Beach the lightbulbs start clicking on.

[Adam Clayman]

For those who can't comprehend Bandon not being on the masses radar;
 90% sounds awfully close to the number of people who use carts.

Also, I once read here they have a massive PR machine that works tirelessly. So, it is a bit of a shock. Just Shocking!

[JSPayne]

Most of these terms don't surprise me....

But what is shocking is how many golfers I've ran into who've never heard of Cypress Point.  Of course then when I say its near Pebble Beach the lightbulbs start clicking on.

Kalen......this could be a prime arguement that magazine ratings really don't mean much to the public. The fact that people HAVE NO CLUE on anything about Pine Valley or Cypress Point (which have been consistantly ranked above Pebble) shows that either (1) golfers don't pay attention to ratings as much as we all like to think or (2) golfers only pay attention to the ratings of the courses they know they can play.

Unfortunately, I know the truth is probably closer to the latter. Still, you'd think your average avid golfer would at least TRY to know something about the #1 and/or #2 ranked courses in the US (if not the world), even if they will probably never play them due to their exclusivity.

P.S. Forgive me if I have the rankings of these courses wrong.....I'm obviously not a ranking-whore. But in my book, PV and CP should be, if not are, #1/2 in the US.

[Dean Stokes]

I know I could go back to the club I used to work at in North Florida, where most of the golfers are successful businessmen, and ask the 30 strong men's group who Tom Doak, Gil Hanse and Coore & Crenshaw are and be surprised if any of them know. That is by no means a slight on either the group or the architects.

If golf is merely your bi weekly getaway from the missus then why shoud you know?

I have often mentioned courses such as Friars Head, Sebonack and Maidstone to members of very elite golf clubs themselves and drawn utterly blank stares.

Probably not much different from the day I caddied for Tom Glavine and asked him what he does for a living. Touche.

[Rob Rigg]

Funniest thing ever from a guy from the East Coast who was playing Ghost a month or so ago.

Me - "Have you been down to Bandon yet?"

Him - "Nope, I have not been to California in years."

You will probably get a blank stare if you are cheering your ball into a Road Hole Bunker, or similarly cool hazard, while playing a course - or acting jealous that someone else in your foursome did.

If you are not impressed by a water fall and a hole that wraps around a big lake then most people will think you are crazy.

If you ask someone why your drive gets backspin when it lands on the fairway because the course is so wet you will probably hear - "Wet is good, what are you talking about. How do you think a course stays green during the summer you idiot."

If you are not impressed with a course that is maintained like Augusta because it is tree lined cart ball then people will definitely think you have lost it.

I totally agree with those who believe that golfers should be more educated about architecture and the "full" experience that is available to those who take the time to understand how/why a course was designed. It is the duty of those who are fortunate enough to participate on this site to try to guide their golfing brethren out of the "cart golf dark ages" that we seem to be mired in. For the future health of the game as much as anything else.

[Scott Warren]

To be fair though, when you go to a steakhouse, how interested are you about what grains the cow was fed, how old it was when it died, what size paddock it was raised in or what its method of death was? Just bring the f**ker char-grilled on the out and just a bit pink inside, and a Corona, too, thanks... so there is a bit of the waterfall-fancier in all of us, it's just the topic changes.

The same bloke I referred to in my previous post was telling me on the way around about a workmate of his who is a collector of and expert on trainers/running shoes, has thousands of pairs and even buys them as investments... one man's expert/aficionado is another man's lunatic, and to plenty of folks, it's us who are crazy!

Thankfully, though, my missus has come to understand why I meet up with men off the internet to play golf... but it did take some explaining the first time while she stared at me with one eyebrow raised!

[Bill Brightly]

You will probably get a blank stare if you are cheering your ball into a Road Hole Bunker, or similarly cool hazard, while playing a course - or acting jealous that someone else in your foursome did.

I missed the road hole bunker at National, but was quite pleased when my buddy got it!

[Wayne_Freedman]

Comment to board member: "If we took out a few trees, we could make the holes more strategic, and open up views of the bay."

Board member: "It's hard enough, already."

Reply to board member: "Actually, you might score better ad the course would be less penal."

Board member: "We don't kill trees. We love our treees."

[JLahrman]

To be fair though, when you go to a steakhouse, how interested are you about what grains the cow was fed, how old it was when it died, what size paddock it was raised in or what its method of death was? Just bring the f**ker char-grilled on the out and just a bit pink inside, and a Corona, too, thanks... so there is a bit of the waterfall-fancier in all of us, it's just the topic changes.

This is exactly the point.  You can pick any other activity and find an enlightened 1% who are convinced that others need to be just as educated about it as they are.  There are comments here that people "need" to be educated.  A lot of golfers don't want to be eductated about this stuff.  Showing them a well designed course might make a few golfers more interested in GCA, but the vast vast majority just won't care.  The light clicked on for some people here, it's not going to for that many.

And I'm a vegetarian by the way.

I drink wine.  It's good or bad.  That's it.  That's all I care to learn about wine.  The process, the grapes, the wineries, the vintages, all that other crap.  No sir, it's not for me.  There are four types of wine:  Good red, bad red, good white, bad white.  You're never going to get me past that level.

[Doug Wright]

Any one of the following statements to wife:

"I'm playing golf [having dinner] with some GolfClubAtlas guys."
"I'm taking another day trip to Ballyneal."

[JSPayne]

To be fair though, when you go to a steakhouse, how interested are you about what grains the cow was fed, how old it was when it died, what size paddock it was raised in or what its method of death was? Just bring the f**ker char-grilled on the out and just a bit pink inside, and a Corona, too, thanks... so there is a bit of the waterfall-fancier in all of us, it's just the topic changes.

This is exactly the point.  You can pick any other activity and find an enlightened 1% who are convinced that others need to be just as educated about it as they are.  There are comments here that people "need" to be educated.  A lot of golfers don't want to be eductated about this stuff.  Showing them a well designed course might make a few golfers more interested in GCA, but the vast vast majority just won't care.  The light clicked on for some people here, it's not going to for that many.

And I'm a vegetarian by the way.

I drink wine.  It's good or bad.  That's it.  That's all I care to learn about wine.  The process, the grapes, the wineries, the vintages, all that other crap.  No sir, it's not for me.  There are four types of wine:  Good red, bad red, good white, bad white.  You're never going to get me past that level.

Your wine analogy deserves to be dissected further. Sure you're no wine aficiando. It's red or white, good or bad, and you don't really care to be educated further. But what kind of wine do you drink the majority of the time? No doubt one you perhaps found by accident, or was convienient at the local store, and just happened to fit your taste or your budget. But surely you don't drink only one kind of wine all the time. So what causes you to buy a different bottle? Friends recommendation? Advertisement? What may cause you to splurge on a more expensive bottle (assuming cost is an issue with you)? A name brand winery? A rating of some sort? The fact that it is "organic"? And if someone did introduce you to a new bottle of wine, one you may have never heard of before, and you kind of liked it, and then they filled you in on where it came from, a bit of the process, the history of the winery, the reasons behind the tastes you were experiencing.......is it not possible, if not probable, that you may take even more of a liking to that particular bottle, and choose to buy it again, on your own, or even share it with others who've never tried it before?

Just because you don't WANT to be educated doesn't mean you shouldn't be..........

[Scott Warren]

Just because you don't WANT to be educated doesn't mean you shouldn't be..........

I disagree.

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