[Mike Bowline]

Mike Bowline:

What is your involvement with the club or the course? You seem to have a good sense of what is going on.

Robert: I was the contractor's (TDI International, Inc) on-site full-time Project Manager, from June-August. I had many meetings on-site with Hawtree and his full-time on-site man, plus our lead shaper. I therefore have an intimate understanding of the project's scope and schedule.

[Robert Thompson]

This thread does strike me as a bit of a character attack on Hawtree.  Does anybody know exactly what Hawtree's brief is? 

Ciao 

Sean: I don't have any problem with Hawtree personally; I've interviewed him once about his new course in Ontario, Tarandowah, which I think is the best value in Canada.

I'm more intrigued by the philosophical questions surrounding the work at Toronto and the decisions Hawtree made in making them. Nothing personal....

[Ian Andrew]

Sean,

The big issue for me is this was the single most important piece of golf course architecture in Canada. This was the course that changed golf architecture in Canada. It’s our National Golf Links. It was a huge influence on Stanley Thompson and set a new standard for golf course design. Watching it disappear is painful from a historical basis.

The course was almost completely intact. They have the plan drawn by Colt, his site directions, his bunker construction details, letters from Alison, and Alison’s renovation drawings done under the direction of Colt. There are plenty of photos from different eras available for review. But he keeps changing more and more as he goes.

From my visit to see the work last fall I learned that the architect is “restoring” to what Colt would have done at the “end of his career” if the course was in London. I expect some will love the work, because a very subtle golf course is now full of very bold architectural features.

I’m frustrated because I’m losing one of my biggest influences.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

The big issue for me is this was the single most important piece of golf course architecture in Canada. This was the course that changed golf architecture in Canada. It’s our National Golf Links. It was a huge influence on Stanley Thompson and set a new standard for golf course design. Watching it disappear is painful from a historical basis.

The course was almost completely intact. They have the plan drawn by Colt, his site directions, his bunker construction details, letters from Alison, and Alison’s renovation drawings done under the direction of Colt. There are plenty of photos from different eras available for review. But he keeps changing more and more as he goes.

From my visit to see the work last fall I learned that the architect is “restoring” to what Colt would have done at the “end of his career” if the course was in London. I expect some will love the work, because a very subtle golf course is now full of very bold architectural features.

I’m frustrated because I’m losing one of my biggest influences.

Ian

I can sympathize with your position because I tend to believe that courses get mucked with unnecessarily far too often and that there are a certain number of courses which are important enough to make any and all attempts to keep them as originally intended.  That said, the club can and will do as it likes.  I have never been comfortable with the idea of getting on the archies' case for these jobs unless one knows he has carte blanche which apparently Hawtree has in this instance.  Even then, the club can see the work an archie has recently done and the work currently in progress.  One would assume there is at least a certain level of satisfaction otherwise why is the work carrying on? 

I can also understands Paul's concerns especially those of a lack of diversity of hazards for a designer who used differing styles throughout his career.  That said, excepting the quantity, I think the vast majority of the new bunkers look more challenging and more appealing than the old bunkers which in truth were not terribly attractive.  However, if the guys in the know (meaning you lot) believe the less attractive bunkers are more appropriate because of Toronto's position in the history of Canadian architecture, that is fair enough and a position I would support. 

I do have a question about the shifting of the 11th green.  What is on the bank to the left or even left of it.  Was it possible to just clear the trees to create more of a zone which balls could be played to rather than having the area near the 12th as the bailout zone?

Ciao

[Jeff_Mingay]

For what it's worth (if anything!), Ian sums up my thoughts on this renovation of Toronto Golf Club. Toronto was a beautifully subtle golf course... for nearly a century. A very good one, too; and, a HUGE influence here, in Canada. 

Thank goodness there are no plans to renovate the National Golf Links of America, for example, based on an individual perception of what Charles Blair Macdonald "would have done at the end of his (life)". That would be a travesty.

As things go, I will not be surprised if a new legion of committee members at Toronto Golf Club look into sincerely restoring the course - based on Colt's and Alison's plans/notes/reports - decades from now.

[Sean Leary]

What was the impetus for change?

[Paul_Turner]

Robert Thompson has a better photo for comparison on his blog:

http://www.ontgolf.ca/g4g/2010/01/04/toronto-golf-club-when-is-it-a-restoration-and-when-is-it-something-else-pt-ii/#comments

Before

After

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

What was the impetus for change?


Probably to move up in the Canadian rankings, they were not in the top 20 and this will likely move them up.

NOT a sympathetic "restoration"

[Robert Thompson]

There was a seminar in Oakville today put on by the RCGA about Toronto Golf Club, and TDI Golf, which did the construction on the course, was there, as well as Jim Fraser, a club member who led the movement for change.
It was an interesting discussion -- but one thing they wanted to make clear was they did not consider this a restoration. Maybe Hawtree does, but apparently he's the only one. TDI may have called it that initially, but they've apparently seen the error of their ways and note that rebuilding two greens and moving tees and fairways, as well as "terracing" two hillsides isn't restoration.

A few notes:

+ Length of the course increased to nearly 6,900 from 6,550
+ Several holes which were already long (the third, for instance, which was already 430) got much longer (65+ yards in that instance). The par-3s now play 185, 230, 155, 230. The fifth hole, another long one, also got lengthened and the rebuilt 15th was also significantly altered.
+ Coffin bunker on the left of 17 was rebuilt. Hard to fathom why.

+ Several areas were "terraced," including the hillside on the right of the par-3 7th. Apparently this was done to allow easier access for members on a steep slope. I found this fascinating because at the same time the club added nearly 400 yards, apparently it is worried about access for old members I also assume the relatively uncontoured slope was natural. So in place of that they’ve terraced it trying to make the changes in slope appear natural. Call it manufactured naturalness. I don’t think it looks very good in the photos, for what it is worth.
+New before and afters can be found here: http://www.tdigolf.com/blog.aspx

[Paul_Turner]

Robert

Any idea where else the course had slopes "terraced", other than the 7th?   They did something to the right hand side slope on the 11th.

No matter what the reason for the terracing, I can't think of a single Colt hole that has anything resembling that shown for the 7th.

I suspected the 17th coffin bunker was a gonna.  It wouldn't fit in with the rest of the redo work.

[Ryan Admussen]

There was a seminar in Oakville today put on by the RCGA about Toronto Golf Club, and TDI Golf, which did the construction on the course, was there, as well as Jim Fraser, a club member who led the movement for change.
It was an interesting discussion -- but one thing they wanted to make clear was they did not consider this a restoration. Maybe Hawtree does, but apparently he's the only one. TDI may have called it that initially, but they've apparently seen the error of their ways and note that rebuilding two greens and moving tees and fairways, as well as "terracing" two hillsides isn't restoration.

A few notes:

+ Length of the course increased to nearly 6,900 from 6,550
+ Several holes which were already long (the third, for instance, which was already 430) got much longer (65+ yards in that instance). The par-3s now play 185, 230, 155, 230. The fifth hole, another long one, also got lengthened and the rebuilt 15th was also significantly altered.
+ Coffin bunker on the left of 17 was rebuilt. Hard to fathom why.

+ Several areas were "terraced," including the hillside on the right of the par-3 7th. Apparently this was done to allow easier access for members on a steep slope. I found this fascinating because at the same time the club added nearly 400 yards, apparently it is worried about access for old members I also assume the relatively uncontoured slope was natural. So in place of that they’ve terraced it trying to make the changes in slope appear natural. Call it manufactured naturalness. I don’t think it looks very good in the photos, for what it is worth.
+New before and afters can be found here: http://www.tdigolf.com/blog.aspx

Was there any explanation/reasoning from the member, on why they opted for a renovation as opposed to a restoration?

[Robert Thompson]

After a lot of consultations with the membership and the direction of Hawtree, they decided to do something other than a restoration. 69% of the membership voted in favor of the plan.

There was a seminar in Oakville today put on by the RCGA about Toronto Golf Club, and TDI Golf, which did the construction on the course, was there, as well as Jim Fraser, a club member who led the movement for change.
It was an interesting discussion -- but one thing they wanted to make clear was they did not consider this a restoration. Maybe Hawtree does, but apparently he's the only one. TDI may have called it that initially, but they've apparently seen the error of their ways and note that rebuilding two greens and moving tees and fairways, as well as "terracing" two hillsides isn't restoration.

A few notes:

+ Length of the course increased to nearly 6,900 from 6,550
+ Several holes which were already long (the third, for instance, which was already 430) got much longer (65+ yards in that instance). The par-3s now play 185, 230, 155, 230. The fifth hole, another long one, also got lengthened and the rebuilt 15th was also significantly altered.
+ Coffin bunker on the left of 17 was rebuilt. Hard to fathom why.

+ Several areas were "terraced," including the hillside on the right of the par-3 7th. Apparently this was done to allow easier access for members on a steep slope. I found this fascinating because at the same time the club added nearly 400 yards, apparently it is worried about access for old members I also assume the relatively uncontoured slope was natural. So in place of that they’ve terraced it trying to make the changes in slope appear natural. Call it manufactured naturalness. I don’t think it looks very good in the photos, for what it is worth.
+New before and afters can be found here: http://www.tdigolf.com/blog.aspx

Was there any explanation/reasoning from the member, on why they opted for a renovation as opposed to a restoration?

[Jeff_Mingay]

I was a panelist at yesterday’s seminar discussing this recent work at Toronto Golf Club.

Paul,

I might be missing an additional hole (or two), but I do recall hillsides fronting the 11th green and 18th fairway also received “terrace” treatment.

Through my affection for the Toronto course, I've admittedly been very skeptical about this work. What did come out of yesterday’s event, though, is how thorough and diligent the powers-that-be at TGC have been throughout planning and implementation of this project... from determining needs for this work, to selecting an architect, to devising and agreeing upon a plan for course improvement, through implementation of the construction work.

Approaching this project wasn't taken lightly, according to Mr. Fraser. Planning actually began in 2001.

Even if we don't agree with what's been done, I think it’s important to note that there are a lot of fine people with honourable intentions involved with this project. This said, the course is very much changed (I had a quick tour yesterday morning as well). Its new form and overall aesthetic following this renovation project - it's not restoration – are things never seen previously at Toronto Golf Club.

[Paul_Turner]

Jeff

What do they think of the work?  Do they think it's congruent with Colt's other courses?

Why were the reports by both Colt and Alison basically ignored?

My feeling is that length could have been added and the bunkers roughened up a bit (as shown in the Colt and Alison reports) and it would have been far less jarring.  There's no excuse for the terracing and some of the mounding on a course like this.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Paul,

What do they think of the work? Do they think it's congruent with Colt's other courses?

There was only one member of Toronto Golf Club present yesterday. He's thrilled with the work. You never know about the entire membership though, of course. Mr. Fraser did point out that a contingent, including golf course superintendents, contractor and principle shaper made a trip to England to examine Colt courses, with Mr. Hawtree. The contractor - who's a great guy representing a very reputable company, by the way - showed some photos of courses they'd seen during this trip; most notably Sunningdale. I immediately noticed - and pointed out - that most of his photos were of reconstructed bunkers; not Colt originals. I found this interested. The new bunkers at Sunningdale, which I also don't thnk are representative of Colt's original work there (correct me if I'm wrong, please), were undoubtedly the models for the new bunkers at Toronto.

At this point, I also thought it was important to point out that, through examination of Mr. Colt's work, there really isn't a "Colt bunker style", is there?

Why were the reports by both Colt and Alison basically ignored?

Robert Thompson asked this question yesterday. Mr. Fraser's answer was that Mr. Hawtree and his staff did a lot of research on the design history and evolution of the golf course in the process of devising their plan. And, he acknowledged that Colt's and Alison's reports were, in fact, not influential relative to what's been done.

It's hard for me not to say that I agree, length could have been added and bunkers roughed up a bit, and the work would have been far less jarring. Jarring is actually a good word. What I've long loved about Toronto Golf Club was the simple elegance of the course. It was simply elegant in apperance, but was so attractive and interesting to play at the same time. Genius.

Now, right or wrong, there's a lot to take in visually. The new bunker style is comparatively "busy" (by comparison with not only what was there, but bunkers illustrated in historic photos of the course). More startling though, upon first sight, is the contouring around the greens. Slopes spilling off the greens used to be long and soft and seemingly natural for the most part. Now, a majority of the greens are surrounded by choppy, bumpy, somewhat abrupt contour. This change stands out most prominently in my mind. 

I really look forward to opportunity to see the course again once this new work has settled in and matured a bit.

[Sean Leary]

EDIT. asked a question that had already been answered..

[Jeff_Mingay]

Sean,

I believe the re-opening is May 15. Right on schedule, which is always impressive!

[Paul_Turner]

More startling though, upon first sight, is the contouring around the greens. Slopes spilling off the greens used to be long and soft and seemingly natural for the most part. Now, a majority of the greens are surrounded by choppy, bumpy, somewhat abrupt contour. This change stands out most prominently in my mind.  .

Jeff

Did they leave the 4th green complex alone?  Or was there mounding added? That is/was a perfect land form.

The work is just Martin Hawtree copying his own redo work at Sunningdale and others.  We now have less variety and a bastardized Toronto course.   A bit of history destroyed,

Would Martin Hawtree appreciate an architect remodeling a UK course of his, say Bearwood Lakes, in a later Hawtree style like Tarandowah (Canada)?

[Jeff_Mingay]

Paul,

I'm pretty sure the green complex at the Redan 4th is untouched; though, they did make an alteration to the creek which crosses between tees and greens to make it more visible I believe. (I've only seen this hole, post-renovation, in photos.)

As I pointed out Sunday, one of golf's great attractions is the amazing diversity of courses throughout the world. Even more amazing is the diversity of courses within the individual portfolios of the great architects. Which is why, in my opinion, it's so important to delve into the design history of individual courses when approaching restorative-based projects, rather than impose a perceived Colt, Ross, Tillinghast, Mackenzie, Thompson, et al "style" at course after course. 

[Matthew MacKay]

Was enough documentation available had TGC decided to undertake a faithful restoration of the 1912 design?

If so, does anyone know how much the 1912 design resembled the pre-reno TGC (2008)?

[Gerry B]

will wait untill see the finished product - but i am a bit concerned by the photos of the work in progress - might not be a lone on this one

[Keith Phillips]

I played Toronto Golf Club today with a group - my first time on the property, so I have no sense of the course pre-'restoration'.  I can tell you that the feedback from golfers today was overwhelmingly positive - a great walk, with very attractive and strategic bunkering, wide corridors, and interesting chipping areas surrounding greens (again, I had not played the course pre-restoration) - I loved the centerline bunkers added on 12 and 16...still trying to figure out the ideal line on 8.  Most of the comments on this thread seem to be based on impressions from photographs, but I'm curious whether commentators have shifted their views after actually playing the course?  I was very, very impressed with the golf course and the club, and am surprised by the negative tone of much of the commentary.  As a specific rebuttal, I didn't know the 11th green had been shifted left, but having played it today it makes perfect sense...it is quite close to 12 tee, and approach shots to elevated greens tend to 'stray' from their intended line...it is true that 17 green and 18 tee are even closer, but the practice at the club is for golfers on the 17th green to 'wave up' players from the tee box; this presumably speeds up play, but it also mitigates the 'danger factor' as nobody is hitting tee shots on 17 when you are standing on 18 tee!  Bottom line - I was blown away by Toronto Golf Club and envy those who are able to play the course every day!

[Wayne_Kozun]

I have played the course a few times both before and after.  I personally like the work for the most part and I think the bunkering has been improved and some of the bunkers are no longer way off in the rough.   Maybe Ian or some other can comment but how much of the course prior to Hawtree's work was really Colt and how much was substantially altered over the last 100 years?  I am off to the course next week for another look so we will see how it is settling in two years later.

[Ian Andrew]

Matt,

There was plenty of information, lots of original features and the quality of existing golf architecture was high. It was understated and elegant, brilliant in its subtlety.

[Tony Ristola]

Matt,

There was plenty of information, lots of original features and the quality of existing golf architecture was high. It was understated and elegant, brilliant in its subtlety.

Ian, you seem more than familiar with Tarana, claiming it had a huge influence. Not knowing the course, I'm curious; asked to restore would you have done any modernizing, and if so what perhaps in a large overview? Moved a handful of tees, a few bunkers... etc.

I take it you would have gone back and restored the look of the bunkers to their original character, widened out fairways as needed, and tree removal if and where necessary, and not touched the greens... or?

Your use of the word "elegance" reminded me of a good book titled In Pursuit of Elegance. You have a word for what the course is today?

Jeff,
Your comment that the course could be returned to its original character in a few decades seems to be the trend, but Toronto seems to be 50-years behind the times.

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