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Paul_Turner

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Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #50 on: August 29, 2009, 07:31:18 AM »
Sean

I mislead you.  The photo is from Hidden Creek by Coore and Crenshaw.  They went specifically for the heathland look (I remember because it was discussed on GCA at the time) and they nailed it.  Martin Hawtree stated that he wanted to bring a more heathland feel to Toronto and I think this would have been a more faithful way to have done that.

You're right that the shapes are often fairly simple and then the grasses or heather roughen 'em up.

Here's the magazine photo just prior to Colt's second visit to Toronto in 1913, this is what he was trying to get across in his Toronto report (I think all those bunkers on the 3rd are gone now,  they are short and right):




Frank

I'm never too sure who influenced who with Colt and Mackenzie  Alwoodley (1907) was even earlier than Granville.   Obviously Mackenzie's first course.  Colt had experience with Rye and reworking Sunningdale but was only just starting to branch out as an architect.  Stoke Poges (1908) was his next big project after working with Mackenzie Alwoodley and it seemed to have a mixture of styles.  Some basic, some more flashy, but nothing like Moor Park above.

I've never seen a really good photo of Alwoodley right from the beginning.  
« Last Edit: August 30, 2009, 06:53:42 AM by Paul_Turner »
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Rich Goodale

Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #51 on: August 29, 2009, 08:13:38 AM »
Paul

When Colt says that "...bunkers should be an ornament and not an eysore...", is this the first published definition and defense of "eye candy?"

Rich

Paul_Turner

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Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #52 on: August 29, 2009, 08:57:37 AM »
Rich

Maybe, but Colt didn't write the caption.  Not sure he'd like "ornament"!
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Tom MacWood

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Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #53 on: August 29, 2009, 09:55:14 AM »
There's nothing wrong with eye candy. This comes from American Golf Illustrated in 1914 and its caption gives a similar message. I'm not sure what course or courses the photos come from, perhaps St. George's Hill too.


Tom MacWood

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Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #54 on: August 29, 2009, 10:05:03 AM »
Here some photos of Colt's CC of Detroit from the same period as Toronto. Most of his N. American courses from this period have much more simplistic bunkering style. Most of those courses were constructed by Carters and I don't believe Colt was around to supervise. At Detroit, and I believe Hamilton, Leonard Macomber of Carters supervised the construction. He may have also been involved at Toronto, although not certain of that. Old Elm was built by Ross. I have not seen too many old photos of OE, but I suspect the bunkers may be a little more naturalistic due to the fact Ross made two trips abroad around that time to study golf course developments.

Tom MacWood

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Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #55 on: August 29, 2009, 10:06:05 AM »
This is an old photo of Hamilton.

Tom MacWood

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Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #56 on: August 29, 2009, 10:06:58 AM »
This is an old photo of the 18th at Toronto. I believe this hole was bunkerless.

Paul_Turner

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Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #57 on: August 29, 2009, 10:27:24 AM »
Tom

Thanks for those.

Those photos of heathland bunkers are from St George's Hill and would have been from the same set he brought over in 1913.

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Mike Bowline

Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #58 on: August 29, 2009, 12:24:40 PM »
This is an old photo of the 18th at Toronto. I believe this hole was bunkerless.

And indeed the hole still is bunkerless. Not sure as to whether or not post-restoration will also be bunkerless.

Ian Andrew

Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #59 on: August 30, 2009, 02:20:39 PM »
Ian:

I have a more basic question:  why is all the rough turned to dirt between the 10th and 11th holes?

Sorry Tom - I was away with work and family over the last little while.

There are now undulations in the 11th fairway.

Paul_Turner

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Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #60 on: August 30, 2009, 02:44:10 PM »
Ian:

I have a more basic question:  why is all the rough turned to dirt between the 10th and 11th holes?

Sorry Tom - I was away with work and family over the last little while.

There are now undulations in the 11th fairway.

Wasn't the flat 11th fairway an nice contrast to the humpy, lumpy, 10th and the 12th with its shallow gully?

« Last Edit: August 30, 2009, 02:56:18 PM by Paul_Turner »
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Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #61 on: August 31, 2009, 10:10:47 AM »
Is the gully on the left side of 12 going to remain the way it was in the recent past or is there going to be changes to it - ie. bunkering or converting it to fairway?

Paul_Turner

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Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #62 on: September 29, 2009, 03:59:02 PM »
More tongues and noses:  Colt's first American course after a total face lift.

Definitely much more 1925 (Moor Park but less rugged) than 1911 (Swinley....).  

Not "heathland" as the project description suggested.


6th

10th

12th with added bunker into the ridge.  A restored feature?


13th

13


15th again...with mounding way out beyond the bunkers to the right.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 04:12:09 PM by Paul_Turner »
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Paul_Turner

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Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #63 on: January 04, 2010, 04:19:22 PM »
It looks like Martin Hawtree has terraced the ravine at the 7th?  Bizarre!  It looks like a rice paddy.  What was he thinking?



How it used to be:

« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 04:23:01 PM by Paul_Turner »
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Mike Bowline

Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #64 on: January 04, 2010, 07:31:09 PM »
That terracing to the right of #7 looks unnatural and/or artificial. Before the restoration, there was not a drainage problem on the slope, nor any difficulty in growing the vegatation needed, so I cannot imagine what the motive was.

I agree it looks goofy. Ugh.

Sean Leary

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Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #65 on: January 04, 2010, 07:34:40 PM »
When will the course re-open?

Mike Bowline

Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #66 on: January 04, 2010, 07:52:14 PM »
When will the course re-open?

Originally when the project schedule was formulated, the construction was to be complete before the snow flew this fall, with Oct 30 being the projected completion date. The re-opening will depend on the weather in the spring of 2010. Great weather with lots of sunshine could mean June 1 re-opening.

Robert Thompson

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Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #67 on: January 04, 2010, 11:30:00 PM »
I find this all quite fascinating. Essentially Hawtree is saying that he knows what Colt would have done had he created TGC a decade after its opening. In other words, in his historical interpretation, the course would have looked significantly different if Colt had been there in the 1920s -- and he could be right. But it strikes me as pretty arrogant -- especially when we know that Allison came back to the course and made suggestions -- and that Toronto Golf Club has Allison's notes for alterations. So I ask, who knew Colt's work better -- Allison or Hawtree? The associate at the time, or a guy who never met Colt?

Mike Bowline:

What is your involvement with the club or the course? You seem to have a good sense of what is going on.
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

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Robert Thompson

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Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #68 on: January 04, 2010, 11:30:29 PM »
posted in error....
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

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Sean_A

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Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #69 on: January 05, 2010, 01:51:09 AM »
This thread does strike me as a bit of a character attack on Hawtree.  Does anybody know exactly what Hawtree's brief is? 

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #70 on: January 05, 2010, 04:32:06 AM »
Sean
I haven't read it that way. Presumably Hawtree was hired as he was perceived as a Colt "expert". Just seems to me somewhat dishonest to try and recreate something from another period of Colt's work that never existed at Toronto. Similarly Titirangi's bunkers have been "restored" with lace edges despite there being no evidence that the bunkers ever looked like this, nor any that Mac did any bunkers in Aust/NZ like this. A pastiche in my view.

Sean_A

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Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #71 on: January 05, 2010, 04:41:14 AM »
Sean
I haven't read it that way. Presumably Hawtree was hired as he was perceived as a Colt "expert". Just seems to me somewhat dishonest to try and recreate something from another period of Colt's work that never existed at Toronto. Similarly Titirangi's bunkers have been "restored" with lace edges despite there being no evidence that the bunkers ever looked like this, nor any that Mac did any bunkers in Aust/NZ like this. A pastiche in my view.

Neil

You could well be right.  It does, however, seem to me that folks are getting hung on the Colt aspect of the work rather than what the club may have included in the remit or indeed the work itself.  IMO, people seem to be leaping to conclusions about the work without the intimate details of the agreement or the remit.  That said, I freely admit to not getting overly worried about the details of these sorts of projects.  I spose I am in the camp of courses changing just because its the nature of man and nature itself to do so. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash

Paul_Turner

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Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #72 on: January 05, 2010, 05:17:41 AM »
This thread isn't a character assassination it's just criticism of design changes to an historic course.

Apparently it was a design "tweak"

ENGLISH TEE
Although it dates back to 1867, making it North America’s third-oldest golf club, Toronto Golf Club’s lasting imprint was left by England’s Harry S. Colt, who laid out the present-day course in 1912. So perhaps it’s appropriate that the refurbishing of the highly lauded course has been entrusted to another Englishman, Martin Hawtree—a man not unfamiliar with Southern Ontario, having designed Tarandowah Golfers Club, which won Ontario Golf magazine’s Best New Course in 2008.

To prepare for renovations, Toronto Golf Club—one of two Colt designs in Canada, the other being Hamilton G&CC—will be shutting down for play on July 2 and will reopen in the spring of 2010. Its nine-hole Watson Course will remain open throughout the renovations.

“It’s a bold step for this club,” says general manager Glenn Smale, noting the project went out for tender in November and came back under budget. “Basically we’re trying to restore the Colt flavour by tweaking the course.” That includes a little bit of everything: a new irrigation system, bunker relocation and removal, breaking up some tee decks to make the course more playable for high handicaps, fairway realignment, new fescue grasses on the fairways and elsewhere, as well as improving the views throughout the course. “Martin’s knowledge of what Colt was doing has been a great help,” Smale says. “There’s no one in the world who understands Colt better.” —BRENT LONG"
« Last Edit: January 05, 2010, 05:22:46 AM by Paul_Turner »
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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #73 on: January 05, 2010, 05:46:45 AM »
This thread isn't a character assassination it's just criticism of design changes to an historic course.

Apparently it was a design "tweak"

ENGLISH TEE
Although it dates back to 1867, making it North America’s third-oldest golf club, Toronto Golf Club’s lasting imprint was left by England’s Harry S. Colt, who laid out the present-day course in 1912. So perhaps it’s appropriate that the refurbishing of the highly lauded course has been entrusted to another Englishman, Martin Hawtree—a man not unfamiliar with Southern Ontario, having designed Tarandowah Golfers Club, which won Ontario Golf magazine’s Best New Course in 2008.

To prepare for renovations, Toronto Golf Club—one of two Colt designs in Canada, the other being Hamilton G&CC—will be shutting down for play on July 2 and will reopen in the spring of 2010. Its nine-hole Watson Course will remain open throughout the renovations.

“It’s a bold step for this club,” says general manager Glenn Smale, noting the project went out for tender in November and came back under budget. “Basically we’re trying to restore the Colt flavour by tweaking the course.” That includes a little bit of everything: a new irrigation system, bunker relocation and removal, breaking up some tee decks to make the course more playable for high handicaps, fairway realignment, new fescue grasses on the fairways and elsewhere, as well as improving the views throughout the course. “Martin’s knowledge of what Colt was doing has been a great help,” Smale says. “There’s no one in the world who understands Colt better.” —BRENT LONG"

Paul

This is what I am referring to when I stated folks may be getting hung up on the Colt aspect of the reno.  The club has to hang its hat on something and using Colt is as good a hook as any.  My point is that unless folks know these decisions are Hawtree's, they should probably cite the club as responsible.  That is why having details about the work is critical if one is going to be critical of the archie. 

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash

Paul_Turner

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Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #74 on: January 05, 2010, 05:57:31 AM »
Sean

These are Hawtree's design decisions.  It's clear the club trusted in his expertise as the Colt expert.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

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