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MikeIs Mr. Ron Hart on the dozer for the Toronto project?Bryan BergnerAssistant Supt.Westmoor CC
What happened to the mound behind the green...gone.The mound behind the green was eliminated when the green was extended to the rear/right-rear approximately 45 feet.Are the green surrounds being changed on 13th? Or is this re-sodding due to tree removal?The left rear bunker was eliminated. THe bunkers were so close to the green edges that the re-shaping of the bunkers necessitated re-sodding the entire surrounding areas around the green. There were no trees close to the gree in the area of disturbance.
I was out at Toronto Golf Club today. This will be the first of a few posts. Iím going to provide some images and explain the intent as I understood it from todayís tour. I will limit my opinion to avoid confusing the issue.The club is insistent that this was not a restoration - and it was always been a renovation to add more of the style of Colt. The foundation of this philosophy comes from the fact that Colt was not on site during construction and that no detailed plans were generated for the work (something he apparently did after this). Hawtree feels that when he was on site at courses like Swinley Forrest and Sunningdale the detail work was more intricate. He is trying to bring that level of detail to Toronto Golf Club.
PaulI am not sure of your stance so far as the bunkers go. Are you for keeping the large oval shapes or would you prefer Hawtree created different shapes then what he has or is there something else you are looking for? Personally. just from a bunkering PoV, I think the news one look far better than what was there. I am not at all keen on what happened at #15, but that is a separate question from the bunker style.Ciao
Quote from: Sean Arble on August 28, 2009, 08:17:49 AMPaulI am not sure of your stance so far as the bunkers go. Are you for keeping the large oval shapes or would you prefer Hawtree created different shapes then what he has or is there something else you are looking for? Personally. just from a bunkering PoV, I think the news one look far better than what was there. I am not at all keen on what happened at #15, but that is a separate question from the bunker style.CiaoI was hoping for something else. It's all there in Colt's and Alison's reports. Torn/gouged out ridge bunkers. He writes this in all his American reports: Toronto report ( 1913), his Pine Valley report (1913), Old Elm (1913), Hamilton 1914 and it's obvious he was using this style at St George's Hill and Swinley. If the new bunkers are supposed to be faithful to Sunningdale and Swinley (as Ian writes above), I don't see it. The Hawtree bunkers are much more "in your face".It's ironic that a Colt course like Moor Park originally had bunkers that were fancy like those new Hawtree bunkers at Toronto (but without the mounding). Hawtree is the consulting architect at Moor Park and the bunkers were recently redone to basically boring circles and ovals.What has happened at 15th is thoroughly disappointing, very finicky, lots of unnecessary shaping, hollows and mounding. How is this in the "Colt spirit" as Hawtree is claiming?I believe Hawtree will reshape pretty much all the greens surrounds at Toronto to various degrees with mounds hollows etc even the naturally flat 11th fairway has been recontoured.
Ian:I have a more basic question: why is all the rough turned to dirt between the 10th and 11th holes?
Paul, maybe the bunkers keep appearing in Colts reports in the early years because the members of Toronto just did not want to change the bunker style; I definitely have a Colt client whose bunkers are not Colt at all, and where I have been arguing for a couple of years now to get them changed, up to now with very limited succes......
SeanI think St Germain did a good job with its rugged fairway bunkers. Some of the American architects like Coore and Crenshaw build bunkers in the "torn out" style and manage to make them look rugged right from the start. This kind of style would be much closer to the spirit of Colt IMO (and much closer to his reports too).I don't really know whether the rugged look was ever quite pulled off at Toronto. Colt designs it in 1911 returns in 1913 and writes a report that he thinks the bunkers don't have the look he wants and describes the torn our ridge etc. He returns in 1914 too but no report that I know of. Then after WW1 Alison returns and states basically the same thing. Alison also returns in 1927 and I don't think he mentions the bunker style, so I'll assume he was happy with it.I have no old pics to be sure. The one posted of the 10th I think is from very early on and I think Colt wasn't satisfied with them then.