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Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2009, 11:05:16 AM »
The bunkers are certainly a lot deeper than they were before and the shapes are more irregular rather than being ovalish.

Paul_Turner

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Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2009, 03:40:10 PM »
The redone 14th bunkers and changed from Alison's original plan.  The green extended to the right (restored??).

And ubiquitous "noses" added to bunkers, which seems to be in vogue for Colt course redos.

What happened to the mound behind the green...gone.

I hope they at least chop down the trees behind 14th.  The bushes and scrub have gone.






Are the green surrounds being changed on 13th?  Or is this re-sodding due to tree removal?





« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 03:54:06 PM by Paul_Turner »
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Bryan Bergner

Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2009, 04:58:55 PM »
Mike

Is Mr. Ron Hart on the dozer for the Toronto project?


Bryan Bergner
Assistant Supt.
Westmoor CC

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2009, 05:10:55 PM »
Paul,

Looking at the photo of #14, I might not have guessed the course was Toronto; our "National Golf Links" here, in Canada  :'(
jeffmingay.com

Mike Bowline

Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2009, 05:21:00 PM »
Mike
Is Mr. Ron Hart on the dozer for the Toronto project?
Bryan Bergner
Assistant Supt.
Westmoor CC

Bryan, you are astute - Yes, Ron Hart is doing the bunker and green surrounds shaping at Toronto. If I called him "Mr." he wouldn't know what to do ;D

Mike Bowline

Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2009, 05:43:24 PM »
Quote

What happened to the mound behind the green...gone.
The mound behind the green was eliminated when the green was extended to the rear/right-rear approximately 45 feet.

Are the green surrounds being changed on 13th?  Or is this re-sodding due to tree removal?
The left rear bunker was eliminated. THe bunkers were so close to the green edges that the re-shaping of the bunkers necessitated re-sodding the entire surrounding areas around the green. There were no trees close to the gree in the area of disturbance.






Paul_Turner

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Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2009, 08:15:53 PM »
Mark

So the extended 14th green, to the right, is to a surface that was newly built up from scratch?
(Alison's green drawing does shape to the right a somewhat)

Jeff

It's just way too elaborate for Toronto GC.  Hawtree doesn't know what a light touch is.  Sure the bunkers had become boring, but they only needed to be scruffed a bit.

It looks like he's guessed too and added a bunker to form the typical diagonal Colt bunker line which we see on many of his UK courses.   But then this hole is(was) more Alison than Colt.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 08:25:35 PM by Paul_Turner »
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Bryan Bergner

Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2009, 08:23:25 PM »
Mike

You're right, he would probably look at me funny if I called him Mr.

Please tell him I said hello.  His work at Westmoor CC was amazing.  I was just looking at the video I shot of him while he shaped some of our bunkers.  Very cool

Bryan

Ian Andrew

Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2009, 09:30:11 PM »
I was out at Toronto Golf Club today.

This will be the first of a few posts. Iím going to provide some images and explain the intent as I understood it from todayís tour.
I will limit my opinion to avoid confusing the issue.

The club is insistent that this was not a restoration - and it was always been a renovation to add more of the style of Colt. The foundation of this philosophy comes from the fact that Colt was not on site during construction and that no detailed plans were generated for the work (something he apparently did after this). Hawtree feels that when he was on site at courses like Swinley Forrest and Sunningdale the detail work was more intricate. He is trying to bring that level of detail to Toronto Golf Club.

The first is a series of images from the same place showing the 10th hole through Time

This picture was from very early on (thanks to Tom MacWood)



This is the hole about 10 years back



This was the hole today.
Of note: the left bunker was moved back into the second ridge which is about 260 yards off the tee.



This is a close up


« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 10:08:14 PM by Ian Andrew »

Ian Andrew

Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2009, 09:43:43 PM »
The 11th

The green rebuilding has been a major source of controversy. There are those who have said that they could not replicate the greens or maintain the feel of the small intricate bumps that were part of the charm. I can tell you that the 11th and 15th greens feature all of the wonderful subtle rolls and bumps that the original green featured. If the green is not an accurate re-creation of the original green it certainly is so very close that the work is admirable.

This is the shot into the 11th as it is today



This is the hole looking from the back right corner



Ian Andrew

Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2009, 09:53:13 PM »
Third post of three.

The 15th Details

The surrounds have been completely changed.

There are some subtle and many not so subtle alterations to the surroundings of the greens. This includes the bunkering changes, additional short grass areas, knuckles in the bluegrass, and new hollows beyond the playing surfaces. There does not seem to be any area around the greens that has not been altered.

Iíve enclosed a few images of those areas to give some idea of the work.
I happen to have quite a few of the same photos as Paul and did not post those.

The 15th 10 years ago



This is the shot into the 15th as it is today.
The surroundings are quite different from the original bunker arrangement.



This is the sort of small scale detail they are adding around greens with new short grass areas



There are also a lot of fingers of short grass between bunkers too



« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 09:59:22 PM by Ian Andrew »

henrye

Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #36 on: August 27, 2009, 11:56:46 PM »
Ian.  Great pics and description.  Here are my comments based on what I see.  Not much change in play for the 10th, although the bunker look has changed.  I know you mention the left bunker has moved back.  First played there about 35 years ago and it'll be hard to adjust to the new look (to me it's a modernization of old oval bunkers - and yes those ovals are classic whether or not Colt had anything to do with them).  My biggest beef with the 10th was when they added the holding pond behind it a few years back, which eliminated one of the most exciting recovery shots on the course.  I like what I see of the new 11th, especially the added short grass area to the right of the green.  The 15th was one of the great par 4's (along with 5 & 9).  I just don't get the change, but regardless am curious about the reason for the short grass fingers (seems like a they're going half way - either short grass more to create a real runoff or don't bother).  I'm sure the course will be just as fun, but the look is certainly changing.

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2009, 02:12:50 AM »
I have some experience with Hawtree restorations. Ten years ago he rebuilt 3 greens and changed many of the bunkers at de Pan. Now 10 years ago we are completeky undoing al these bunker changes, because we are going back to the original oval shaped rough edged bunkers that have always been on the course, be it that we want heather edges where possible. Worse were the green rebuilds. Two of the three greens rebuilt are very different in style from the rest of the course; any of you could spot them right away. Over time the new greens had maintenance problems, and also the club has started to understand they are the wrong style. Unfortunately no measurements were made of the original greens before the rebuilds, so we can not restore them back to how they were, and I'm stuck with old pictures and aerial pictures to complete this task.

The good news at Toronto seems to be that at least they are measuring the old greens before they are being rebuilt, and we have many pictures of the original bunkers.

Many original Colt courses are being "restored" like this at an alarming rate in Europe (Frankfurt, Falkenstein, Hilversum, Le Touquet) and in UK. If my experience in Holland is any indication, they will all be re-restored in 10 years time......

Tom MacWood

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Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2009, 05:58:25 AM »
Wow! I had no idea Dick Wilson was still living and working in Toronto.

Paul_Turner

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Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2009, 08:03:54 AM »
I was out at Toronto Golf Club today.

This will be the first of a few posts. Iím going to provide some images and explain the intent as I understood it from todayís tour.
I will limit my opinion to avoid confusing the issue.

The club is insistent that this was not a restoration - and it was always been a renovation to add more of the style of Colt. The foundation of this philosophy comes from the fact that Colt was not on site during construction and that no detailed plans were generated for the work (something he apparently did after this). Hawtree feels that when he was on site at courses like Swinley Forrest and Sunningdale the detail work was more intricate. He is trying to bring that level of detail to Toronto Golf Club.


Ian

At www.Hawtree.co.uk Hawtree is billing the course as a restoration, or actually a "restauration"...I think i need to go get drunk in a restorant.

"The 2nd of July 2009 TDI will start construction at the long awaited golf course restauration project at Toronto Golf Club. Hawtree, whom is responsible for the design, will be present with full time supervision of the project during the 4 months construction period."

and earlier:

Hawtree, who is currently working on a restoration of Colt's course at Toronto Golf Club, is not one of them, seeing it as more of a professional challenge. "When I first went to Toronto and Hamilton, I knew immediately it was Colt's work from the selection of green sites and the routing of the course to reach them," he says. "With every green, you know exactly why he has put it there. At Belvoir Park in Belfast, it's just the same Ė he has spent lots of time routing the course to make use of the excellent green sites he found.

"At Toronto, we're really trying to get back to the spirit of Colt," he says. "Over the years, the bunkers have been changed quite considerably, and we're trying to rough the golf course up a little. At most Colt courses, you find that the styling of the bunkers has disappeared, and, since the bunkering and the greens are the keys to his style, it is important to rediscover the original feel. We have put in place a five year plan for the restoration of the course that involves returning to the original grasses as much as possible, and getting rid of lots of trees that have grown up in the intervening years."

This doesn't look like roughening up the course a "little".
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 01:21:58 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #40 on: August 28, 2009, 08:17:49 AM »
Paul

I am not sure of your stance so far as the bunkers go.  Are you for keeping the large oval shapes or would you prefer Hawtree created different shapes then what he has or is there something else you are looking for?  Personally. just from a bunkering PoV, I think the news one look far better than what was there. I am not at all keen on what happened at #15, but that is a separate question from the bunker style.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash

Paul_Turner

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Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #41 on: August 28, 2009, 01:20:37 PM »
Paul

I am not sure of your stance so far as the bunkers go.  Are you for keeping the large oval shapes or would you prefer Hawtree created different shapes then what he has or is there something else you are looking for?  Personally. just from a bunkering PoV, I think the news one look far better than what was there. I am not at all keen on what happened at #15, but that is a separate question from the bunker style.

Ciao

I was hoping for something else.  It's all there in Colt's and Alison's reports.  Torn/gouged out ridge bunkers.  He writes this in all his American reports:  Toronto report ( 1913), his Pine Valley report (1913), Old Elm (1913), Hamilton 1914 and it's obvious he was using this style at St George's Hill and Swinley.

If the new bunkers are supposed to be faithful to Sunningdale and Swinley (as Ian writes above), I don't see it.  The Hawtree bunkers are much more "in your face".

It's ironic that a Colt course like Moor Park originally had bunkers that were fancy like those new Hawtree bunkers at Toronto (but without the mounding).  Hawtree is the consulting architect at Moor Park and the bunkers were recently redone to basically boring circles and ovals!

What has happened at 15th is thoroughly disappointing, very finicky, lots of unnecessary shaping, hollows and mounding.  How is this in the "Colt spirit" as Hawtree is claiming?

I  believe Hawtree will reshape pretty much all the greens surrounds at Toronto to various degrees with mounds hollows etc  even the naturally flat 11th fairway has been recontoured.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 01:42:39 PM by Paul_Turner »
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Tom_Doak

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Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #42 on: August 28, 2009, 01:36:22 PM »
Ian:

I have a more basic question:  why is all the rough turned to dirt between the 10th and 11th holes?

Sean_A

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Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #43 on: August 28, 2009, 01:46:44 PM »
Paul

I am not sure of your stance so far as the bunkers go.  Are you for keeping the large oval shapes or would you prefer Hawtree created different shapes then what he has or is there something else you are looking for?  Personally. just from a bunkering PoV, I think the news one look far better than what was there. I am not at all keen on what happened at #15, but that is a separate question from the bunker style.

Ciao

I was hoping for something else.  It's all there in Colt's and Alison's reports.  Torn/gouged out ridge bunkers.  He writes this in all his American reports:  Toronto report ( 1913), his Pine Valley report (1913), Old Elm (1913), Hamilton 1914 and it's obvious he was using this style at St George's Hill and Swinley.

If the new bunkers are supposed to be faithful to Sunningdale and Swinley (as Ian writes above), I don't see it.  The Hawtree bunkers are much more "in your face".

It's ironic that a Colt course like Moor Park originally had bunkers that were fancy like those new Hawtree bunkers at Toronto (but without the mounding).  Hawtree is the consulting architect at Moor Park and the bunkers were recently redone to basically boring circles and ovals.

What has happened at 15th is thoroughly disappointing, very finicky, lots of unnecessary shaping, hollows and mounding.  How is this in the "Colt spirit" as Hawtree is claiming?

I  believe Hawtree will reshape pretty much all the greens surrounds at Toronto to various degrees with mounds hollows etc  even the naturally flat 11th fairway has been recontoured.


Paul

Gotcha.  Do you know of an Colt courses which have gone back to Colt's ideal of the rugged bunkers built into the pads?  Did Toronto's bunkers originally appear this way?  I think St Georges Hill put some effort into creating that rugged look, but got it hopelessly wrong as is evidenced by thevery awkward looking bunkers at 8.  I am not sure why it would be so difficult to create that look (on the 11th as well), perhaps it has more to do with maintenace.

I agree with 15.  The hole looks crazy busy and not at all Colt-like.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash

Paul_Turner

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Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #44 on: August 28, 2009, 02:14:32 PM »
Sean

I think St Germain did a good job with its rugged fairway bunkers.  Some of the American architects like Coore and Crenshaw build bunkers in the "torn out" style and manage to make them look rugged right from the start.  This kind of style would be much closer to the spirit of Colt IMO (and much closer to his reports too).



I don't really know whether the rugged look was ever quite pulled off at Toronto.  Colt designs it in 1911 returns in 1913 and writes a report that he thinks the bunkers don't have the look he wants and describes the torn our ridge etc.  He returns in 1914 too but no report that I know of.  Then after WW1 Alison returns and states basically the same thing.  Alison also returns in 1927 and I don't think he mentions the bunker style, so I'll assume he was happy with it.

I have no old pics to be sure.  The one posted of the 10th I think is from very early on and I think Colt wasn't satisfied with them then.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 03:51:01 PM by Paul_Turner »
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Mike Bowline

Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #45 on: August 28, 2009, 03:00:15 PM »
Ian:

I have a more basic question:  why is all the rough turned to dirt between the 10th and 11th holes?

The area between 10 and 11 was the haul path for hundreds of yards of material to 11 fairway and 11 tees, and it also was an area with poor drainage initially. To make matters worse, there is a 10" irrigation main at a shallow depth parallel to 10/11, which necessitated a bridging operation (dump trash stripped sod) over the main to protect it. Therefore, lots of rain, poor drainage, incessant haul traffic - all contributed to destroying the grass between 10 an 11.

Frank Pont

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Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #46 on: August 28, 2009, 06:20:33 PM »
Paul, maybe the bunkers keep appearing in Colts reports in the early years because the members of Toronto just did not want to change the bunker style; I definitely have a Colt client whose bunkers are not Colt at all, and where I have been arguing for a couple of years now to get them changed, up to now with very limited succes.....

Sean: we are moving towards more rugged fairway bunkers at the Colt courses de Pan and Eindhoven in Holland, but at a modest speed, a few bunkers each year. Same is true for Simpson courses Spa and Sart Tilman in Belgium.

Paul_Turner

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Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #47 on: August 28, 2009, 08:42:32 PM »
Paul, maybe the bunkers keep appearing in Colts reports in the early years because the members of Toronto just did not want to change the bunker style; I definitely have a Colt client whose bunkers are not Colt at all, and where I have been arguing for a couple of years now to get them changed, up to now with very limited succes......

Frank

That may be true, I'm not sure.  Also remember 1911 was very early for golf course construction in Canada and it was probably quite difficult to get local contractors to do what he wanted.  Before his next visit in 1913, the UK magazines show pictures of St George's Hill and state that Colt will be taking these to America to show his ideas of bunker construction.  

And so I'm pretty certain of the style that Colt wanted for Toronto and it wasn't the fancy shaped style that Hawtree is using.

To be fair to Martin Hawtree, Colt did do fancy bunker shaping (1920s) that's similar to those new ones at Toronto.  

Moor Park:



But shouldn't a fine, historic course like Toronto be taken on its own merits rather than having a generic "restoration" style imposed upon it, for the sake of variety at least.  In years to come, would Martin Hawtree want someone to restore all his courses to a generic "Hawtree" style?
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 08:46:02 PM by Paul_Turner »
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Sean_A

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Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #48 on: August 29, 2009, 03:32:47 AM »
Sean

I think St Germain did a good job with its rugged fairway bunkers.  Some of the American architects like Coore and Crenshaw build bunkers in the "torn out" style and manage to make them look rugged right from the start.  This kind of style would be much closer to the spirit of Colt IMO (and much closer to his reports too).



I don't really know whether the rugged look was ever quite pulled off at Toronto.  Colt designs it in 1911 returns in 1913 and writes a report that he thinks the bunkers don't have the look he wants and describes the torn our ridge etc.  He returns in 1914 too but no report that I know of.  Then after WW1 Alison returns and states basically the same thing.  Alison also returns in 1927 and I don't think he mentions the bunker style, so I'll assume he was happy with it.

I have no old pics to be sure.  The one posted of the 10th I think is from very early on and I think Colt wasn't satisfied with them then.

Paul

Yes, those St Germain bunkers look superb.  However, I think the vegetation helps a load.  It allows the bunkers to be quite different in how their faces are presented, yet blended quite well.  Plus the examples you gave look to be in perfect spots for creating the depth necessary to balance with the style - which in truth is very basic.  I am on your side in these matters so long as it doesn't cost the earth to maintain.  That said, for me, by far the most important aspect is the placement and I would prefer all discussions of bunkers start there then work toward the style.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash

Frank Pont

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Re: Toronto GC "Restoration"
« Reply #49 on: August 29, 2009, 03:39:54 AM »
Paul, it seems that Colts bunkers got fancier after his acquaintance to MacKenzie, and after he built Alwoodley with him. The older Colt courses on the continent, like Granville in France, have a very basic bunkering style, oval with rugh edges.

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