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TEPaul

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #225 on: August 07, 2009, 12:01:21 PM »
"More importantly, there is no conflict here.   One the one hand we have three reports that Campbell designed the course.   On the other hand, from Myopia, we have NOTHING to the contrary.    NOTHING AT ALL."


That's true, depending on who "we" is, but Myopia certainly has something to the contrary!   

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DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #226 on: August 07, 2009, 12:06:23 PM »
Quote from: TEPaul on August 07, 2009, 12:01:21 PM
"More importantly, there is no conflict here.   One the one hand we have three reports that Campbell designed the course.   On the other hand, from Myopia, we have NOTHING to the contrary.    NOTHING AT ALL."


That's true, depending on who "we" is, but Myopia certainly has something to the contrary!  



That's Myopia's business.   You are not Myopia.  You are a child playing child's games.  

_________________________

Jeff, what specifically do the Myopia minutes say that contradicts the reports in any way?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 12:08:00 PM by DMoriarty »
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Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #227 on: August 07, 2009, 12:08:05 PM »
David,

I wasn't actually trying to say anything about MHC specifically. Someone on the thread asked about the veracity of newspaper articles and I saw that and thought it relevant in a general sense as to how to value historic sources.  While its quite possible that in any single case, one source is good, in general, I think the idea of multiple, confirming sources is a good idea.  

Tom Mac agrees, which I appreciate.    Frankly, it is a good philosophical discussion and I find you finding it strange, well...... strange. ;D  I wasn't looking for an argument of any kind, but on golf club atlas, I guess the arguments come looking for me! ;)

I agree most reporters took (then and now) basic press releases from whatever source, perhaps doing some more research to make a story their own.  If so, its even more representative of the concept that information put in the paper has a certain spin to it, then and now.  All of which goes to say what you, Tom and the rest of us know - historical research will always require some interpretation.

TePaul,

Because I really don't want to get even as snippy as I occaisionally got on the MCC threads, I will acknowledge your attempt at humor but decline to expand on it, since its potentially as inflammatory as it is funny.  But, IF I were to start a rumor, I would add that HH Barker was really the founding father of ASGCA but missed the train to Pinehurst and so they made Donald Ross the first President........Why not, right? :D
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #228 on: August 07, 2009, 12:11:56 PM »
Speaking of newspaper articles here is one from the Boston Globe, May 13, 1894. Campbell also introduced sheep to The Country Club, and later to Franklin Park. I'm not sure if there were sheep at Essex County or not, I seem to recall they had their own flock too.

There are couple of interesting points. First, apparently the links had not be laid out yet, or at least not completed. And second, it appears the magic date for the start of activities at the Club was June 1.

« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 12:58:19 PM by Tom MacWood »
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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #229 on: August 07, 2009, 12:16:16 PM »
Well, if you like rumors, adding sheep to the mix is a good ticket!  Of more interest is perhaps the first mention of the stadium concept!
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 12:17:47 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #230 on: August 07, 2009, 12:29:05 PM »
Quote from: Jeff_Brauer on August 07, 2009, 12:16:16 PM
Well, if you like rumors, adding sheep to the mix is a good ticket!

Please explain.
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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #231 on: August 07, 2009, 12:36:16 PM »
Quote from: Tom MacWood on August 07, 2009, 12:29:05 PM
Quote from: Jeff_Brauer on August 07, 2009, 12:16:16 PM
Well, if you like rumors, adding sheep to the mix is a good ticket!

Please explain.

Do I really have to, Tom?
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #232 on: August 07, 2009, 12:42:59 PM »
You lost me. Please explain the comment about rumors. Do you think the sheep were dual purpose?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 12:45:25 PM by Tom MacWood »
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DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #233 on: August 07, 2009, 12:47:12 PM »
Interesting article.   Again the most probable source of the information is that it came directly from the club, unless the Boston Globe reporters were roaming the countryside looking for sheep.  Hard to imagine so much information being wrong, isn't it?

Jeff, it is very common for these early articles to note whether the clubhouse provided a good viewing spot.   Golf was still quite novel and therefore of much interest to curious spectators.  
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Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #234 on: August 07, 2009, 12:49:32 PM »
Tom,

This is a family site......but let me ask you what you were interpreting my bad joke to be?  Here I thought you were reaquiring your sense of humor with the Barker/Train Crash reference, and now you are relapsing!

BTW, did you hear the one about the Ohio State linebacker and the sheep? ;)

David,

I wasn't aware of such early comments, so thank you.  It seems to me that every time the stadium concept comes up (working backwards from TPC, ANGC) it is deemed a new idea.  As to the novelty, I can see that, pre TV.  Spectators from Washington went out to see the first battle of the Civil War as if it was sport.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 12:51:08 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #235 on: August 07, 2009, 12:54:19 PM »
I'm curious...are they able to keep the sheep out of the rough?
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Tom MacWood

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Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #236 on: August 07, 2009, 01:01:23 PM »
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Peter Pallotta

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #237 on: August 07, 2009, 01:18:44 PM »
His name, according to published accounts, was Sam.  He was trained by a Scottish sheep-dog named Shetley.

Peter
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JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #238 on: August 07, 2009, 01:21:06 PM »
But how does he learn the rough from the fairway?
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Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #239 on: August 07, 2009, 01:23:52 PM »
Jim
You've obviously never owned a Border Collie. They are smarter than half the participants on this site...and thats not meant to be a criticism of the participants.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 01:28:11 PM by Tom MacWood »
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JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #240 on: August 07, 2009, 01:35:27 PM »
Nope...but I've seen them work so I have a sense for their intelligence...
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JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #241 on: August 07, 2009, 01:38:47 PM »
Back to your article...how is it that in mid-May the writer says "the course will be laid out" and also says "golf will begin June 1"?

By the way, I haven't read the first seven pages so I have not picked a side yet...
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Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #242 on: August 07, 2009, 02:00:29 PM »
That is 1894 for you. The 9-hole courses at The Country Club, Essex County and Myopia were laid out in a matter of weeks, not months.
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TEPaul

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #243 on: August 07, 2009, 03:06:05 PM »
Myopia's executive committee records show that Appleton, Merrill and Gardner reported to the executive committee that a course could be ready for play in three months. The original nine was open for play June 1, 1894. June 1, less three months=March 1. Willie Campbell arrived in Boston aboard the Carthaginian from abroad on March 31, 1894.

Timelining is a wonderful thing for an historian.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 03:07:39 PM by TEPaul »
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Tom MacWood

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Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #244 on: August 07, 2009, 06:19:05 PM »
TEP
I agree it is wonderful thing, especially when you have the correct dates. Both articles are from the Boston Globe - the first is May 13, 1894 (the course has yet be laid) and the second from June 17, 1894 (Bunker Hill Day), not June 1. I think Weeks has sold you a bill of goods.

Where and when was the annual meeting held in March?

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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #245 on: August 07, 2009, 07:02:35 PM »
Jeez Tom Mac, I don't know....before we accept that article we will need to debate how the word "tomorrow" was used back in 1894, don't you think?  (just kidding, of course.....I think)
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #246 on: August 08, 2009, 01:53:27 AM »
The Boston Journal article discussing the opening tournament that "took place yesterday" was dated June 19, 1894.
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Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #247 on: August 08, 2009, 11:03:45 AM »
There are your two sources then.  A June 17 article saying it opens tomorrow and a June 19 article that says it opened yesterday.  There are smarter guys than me, but I suspect first play occurred on June 18th!
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #248 on: August 08, 2009, 02:04:19 PM »
Jeff:

According to the secretary of the club, Dacre Bush, his written records say play began on the original nine around June 1, 1894 and was so popular with members and guests that within a month the club had held two tournaments (the first June 18th and the second July 4) both of which Herbert Leeds who was then at The Country Club Brookline won. Leeds became a member of Myopia in early 1896.
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #249 on: August 08, 2009, 02:48:25 PM »
So Myopia gets credit for stadium views AND the soft opening.......
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach
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