[Niall C]

For what its worth I got this from the UK edition of Golfing from 22nd January 1903.

"Mr Herbert C. Leeds, of the Myopia Hunt Club (remarks New York Golf), found out more during a two months tour of the principal golf courses of England and Scotland than the average Scottish professional could tell one in a life-time. Only those who have been active on green committees can get so great a benefit in so short a time."

Clearly Mr Leeds was no fan of Scottish pro's. I wonder where he came into contact with them, apart from Scotland obviously ?

Niall

[Tom MacWood]

Weeks quotes the 1896 Run Book on page 36 of his work.  

Here is page 36. I assume the parentheses were added by Weeks. 

"That summer of 1896 home-and-home team matches were played against the Newport GC on the links erected by Theodore A. Havemeyer. The flavor of the soggy, salty day comes through this note in the Myopia Run Book:

'A team match between the Newport GC and Myopia took place on September 19th. The Myopia was disappointed by the illness of their players, and inability of another to get away. The original intention was to play teams of six, but teams of five were played, the match being in a thoroughly sporting and friendly spirit. There has been heavy rains, and the Links (Newport) was, so to speak, sodden. The match was also played in a thick fog. At the end of the first round Myopia was 11 holes down. (Then Myopia rallied.) The appended telegram gives the result and names of the players. Myopia won seven holes up.

          Newport, Rhode Island
          Leeds halves with Coates. Longworth halved with Havemeyer. Appleton two down with Rutherford. Henry Six up with Cochran.
          Shaw three up with Stillman.'"

What is interesting about this entry, or wherever it is, it does not jive with what was reported in the NY Sun on 10/2/1896.

It is a little confusing to understand how these matches were conducted. The article said the matches were 27 holes. Leeds went against Coats and it ended 0 for Leeds and 0 for Coats. I would find it hard to believe they would halved 27 consecutive holes, but who knows. Maybe they both got zeros if the match ends in a tie. Whatever was going on it was some kind of aggregate score. After the first day at Newport on Sept 19 Myopia lead 9 holes to 2 holes. Exactly what the telegram reports. The second match on the 26th at Myopia ended Myopia 24 and Newport 4. The final score Myopia 33 to 6.

[Tom MacWood]

Even so, given that he quoted other sources with dates, etc., is it is merely speculation that he quoted a post 1904 Bush remembrance as being written by the Club Secretary?  

Bush's remembrance could have come anywhere between 1904 and his death 1936. The distance of the hole changed in 1904, but I don't believe it changed again until after WWII, and it was actually shortened.

[Mike Cirba]

I'm not sure if the following is a 1894 Run Book entry, or not.   Certainly it can be read that way.

Weeks writes:

"That this new course was difficult is evidenced by a note stating that, on June 24.  "H.C. Leeds covered the 9 holes in 48 strokes, previous best on record 54."   It goes on facetiously, "Prof. Baxter, fired by the talk, which in warm weather provides ventilation through headgear for the overheated vacuums of the Myopians, purchased several clubs and having broken one or two without moving the ball eventually succeeded in finishing in 214 strokes"."

"Professor Baxter is a caricature probably written into the Run Book by a sarcastic member of the Hunt.  The feeling that golf was an unworthy intrusion was widespread and would not subside for years; the horsey members kept to one part of the Club and the golfers in their plus fours to another."

[Mike Cirba]

Regarding Bush and the timing of his writings, evidently titled, "Golf: the triumph of Hope over Experience", Weeks writes;

"Under the caption "Golf: the triumph of Hope over Experience", the Club secretary, S. Dacre Bush, wrote this description of the Long Nine when it was ready for play:", and then goes on to quote Bush directly, hole by hole.   There is an obvious confusion in the first sentence, because if Bush wrote it precisely when the Long Nine was ready for play, that would logically have been before the course was 18 holes.   One possible explanation is that we know the 18 holes were already designed and under construction by 1897, and just not ready for the US Open of 1898.   I suspect it was written around the time of the US Open around 1910, but I could be wrong. 

In any case, it's fairly detailed...a few examples from Bush;

The first hole was the present 2nd.  The tee was on a high ridge above and to the east of the Club house.   The tee faced north, the fairway was bisected by a wide sandtrap at a distance to catch a topped second shot and the green was guarded by four-foot mounds and deep traps, approached down a sharp declivity and with rough at the back.

The second was the present 8th.   This was one of the two longest holes, the fairway covering ridges which cut off the view of the green and which necessitates uphill and downhill lies.   The green, three full shots from the tee in those days, pitched sharply from right to left, and when sunbaked, lightning fast.   Players stroking a chip firmly from the upper edge have seen their ball gather speed, cross the 25 yards of the green and disappear into the rough.   Distance 427 yards, par 5.

The third was the present 9th, minus the pond.   The player, probably with a mashie, aimed at a long domino green, never wider than 15 yards, and entirely surrounded by sand traps, placed to catch hook or slice, in the deepest of which a player, bending over his ball, would disappear.   Distance 130 yards: par 3.   The bullrushes which gave the hole its name were death on a topped shot.

and so on...

[Tom MacWood]

On page 37, he quotes a July 1895 Boston Herald article concerning an upcoming golf event.  

"The close ties with The Country Club which had drawn the Hunt so often to Clyde Park were renewed on the links. This announcement in the Boston Herald in July, 1895, despite the odd terminology, shows Myopia acting as host and setting the handicaps:

'The Myopia Club golf links will hold a handicap at Clyde Park, Brookline, July 4, open to members, associates, and their friends. Dinner will be served at 7:30, and display of fireworks in the evening.'

The club was beginning to take the game seriously. 'Members come into the Red Room after the hunt exhilarated, enthusiastic,' says a note in the Run Book. 'The golfer is usually downcast after a round. Evidently to him, "Youth is a blunder, Manhood a struggle, Old Age a regret."'

But golf had its lighter side, too, as witness this conversation, over heard at the Pond tee: 'I just drove over the Pond with a putter.'
'Why did you do it?'
'Oh, in the cause of science.'"

It is a little strange he would choose the non-eventful handicap event on July 4 to illustrate the tight connection with Brookline, especially when you had so many cross over members (Thomas, Leeds, Shaw, Appleton, etc) and also the Campbell connection.

David is correct the second part comes from 'Myopia Songs and Waltzes,' which was originally published in 1897.

[Tom MacWood]

In all three cases Weeks quotes from 'a note' in the Run Book. Does the use the word 'note' instead of entry seem a little strange? He uses the word 'entry' to describe Bush's remembrance in the club records. That is a little strange too, and misleading. I think it is pretty clear Weeks is not a reliable source.

[Tom MacWood]

The "Leeds Scrapbook" is also directly quoted in the Weeks book, and very interestingly so.

Mike
What quote are you referring to?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

If Weeks wrote "notation", that would probably not sound so strange, but agree that note sounds pencilled in.

In answer to your question about the scrapbook, page 84 reads;

"In Leeds's scrapbook is this entry:  "The one thought of the New School seems to be to remove anything that might spoil a score.   They think it is golf to get into the hole in the fewest number of strokes, forgetting, as  Sir Alexander Kinlock so well expressed it, 'that this is not golf, and please God never will be golf.   Golf is to get into the hole in one stroke less than your opponent!'  To eliminate chance from an game is to spoil it."

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

If Weeks wrote "notation", that would probably not sound so strange, but agree that note sounds pencilled in.

In answer to your question about the scrapbook, page 84 reads;

"In Leeds's scrapbook is this entry:  "The one thought of the New School seems to be to remove anything that might spoil a score.   They think it is golf to get into the hole in the fewest number of strokes, forgetting, as  Sir Alexander Kinlock so well expressed it, 'that this is not golf, and please God never will be golf.   Golf is to get into the hole in one stroke less than your opponent!'  To eliminate chance from an game is to spoil it."

Why would they pencil in 'Songs and Waltzes of Myopia'?

What is most interesting about the Leeds quote IMO is the fact it is the only one in the book. That tells me one of two things, either Weeks did not have Leeds' scrapbook and was quoting from another source (probably from Forbes) or there never was a Leeds' scrapbook,  there was a Forbes' scrapbook with some of it devoted to Leeds.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

I think you are far too quick to jump to speculative conclusions.

If the book was meant to be a history of golf course architecture, perhaps, but a history of a club would be written, and meant to be read, more as a story than a footnoted thesis paper.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
There is actually quite a bit of the book devoted to the golf course and to Leeds. I would have thought he would have quoted from the architect's scrapbook if he had it. Instead he relies on Bush's description of the Long Nine; he also has no idea how or when Leeds altered that nine. The same is true with the new and expanded eighteen hole course. He doesn't know precisely when that work began or finished. One would think the scrapbook would have covered that, it was reported in magazines and newspapers.

Also a Leeds scrapbook would certainly referred to or mentioned Campbell. There are numerous articles that mention the two men together at Myopia.

How do you explain only one quote and Weeks' ignorance on these matters?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

I'm not saying your theory isn't possible...I just think you're jumping to conclusions without knowing all the facts if you think those are the ony two possibilities?

Which "numerous articles" mention Leeds and Campbell together at Myopia?   I can only recall the Herd/Kirkaldy article I posted here mentioning something about how Campbell played this or that hole.   

Certainly you seem to be placing a great deal of stock in that one, but I don't see it as unusual or telling that Leeds would have brought some recollections of up their old, deceased friend to the foregin visitors during their visit.

[Tom MacWood]

There is that article plus articles 5/18/94, 5/19/94, 5/20/94, 6/19/94, 6/23/94, 8/12/95, 6/20/96, 7/15/96, and 10/20/96.

If he has Leeds' scrapbook how do you explain only one quote and Weeks' ignorance of when and how the Long Nine was changed, when work began on the new eighteen, and Campbell's relationship with Myopia & Leeds?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Are each of those articles simply reports of competitions that both Leeds and Campbell played in?

[Tom MacWood]

No, not all of them. Why would that make difference?

Wouldn't you think Leeds would include articles in his scrapbook involving competitions he won & big events he participated in, and articles profiling his golfing and athletic prowess, not to mention articles dealing with his architectural activities/interests? 

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

We don't really know what if anything Leeds's scrapbook entailed or focused on, do we?     We don't know what year(s) are covered, or when Leeds started it.   It could have been more like a diary of thoughts for all we know...I have no idea, but that one caption sure reads like it..

I'm not sure why it would make a difference to Weeks to see fellow competitors of Leeds in the scrapbook anyhoo, even if Leeds clipped news articles with his name in them.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
Diary? I think you and everyone understands what a scrapbook is, a scrapbook it not a diary, which is why, I take it, you edited your post.

A couple of those articles mention Campbell laid out Myopia; the last three mention Campbell is the pro at Myopia. I think it is unlikely Weeks would have ignored that information, which is why I doubt he saw the scrapbook, if it ever existed.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Depending on when Leeds started or wrote his scrapbook, your questions may or may not be relevant.

Again, with less than half-the-story at our disposal, we just don't know.

[Mike Cirba]

You've come up with all sorts of crazy theories about NGLA which would rewrite portions of their history.   You've claimed various individuals should be added to the credits, claimed it was part of a real estate scheme, claimed the course was 110 acres, credited Hutchinson, Travis, and Emmet with the design, disputed the date it was ready for play, disputed the opening date of the club, etc . . .  So tell us about how you reached out to NGLA and examined their internal records?   Tell us about you went to them first as a show of respect?  

Mike Cirba

 I accurately and gently portrayed some of the absurd positions you have taken regarding NGLA.   Should I start a thread pulling some of them up so you can explain why you didn't go to NGLA?


David,

Don't bother...I'll start a separate thread to discuss this, probably tomorrow.

Thanks for prompting me to purchase the CBM 1928 reminisces...there are some terrific pictures in there, as well.

[Tom MacWood]

One would presume if you are going to bother to put together a scrapbook it would be devoted to the high points of your life, when you were most active. In Leeds case that would be from 1875 to about 1906. It doesn't make much sense for him begin a scrapbook when he was curtailing his activities.  

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Sh*t Tom, at age 52 I'm still hoping my best scrapbook days are ahead of me!  

We don't know what we don't know.   You may be right.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
I don't see any reason why you shouldn't have or wouldn't have a rich and interesting scrapbook full of great successes and accomplishments. May I suggest you enlist the help of TEP, if you are running out of material he is very good at making things up.

[TEPaul]

"If he has Leeds' scrapbook how do you explain only one quote and Weeks' ignorance of...............Campbell's relationship with Myopia & Leeds?"


Tom MacWood:

It seems Mike Cirba has asked you to explain what you mean about a relationship between Campbell and Leeds but you haven't answered that question.

Although this thread has been running on and off for close to a year and a half now I recall you have stated on here that Campbell taught Leeds how to play golf and you also seem to have suggested Campbell was somehow Leed's mentor in golf course architecture.

I have never seen or ever heard of such relationships between Campbell and Leeds----not from anywhere or at any time other than from you. Where did you come up with that notion other than perhaps the fact Campbell was at TCC at the same time Leeds was or that Campbell apparently played tournament golf using Myopia's name in 1896---the same year Leeds joined Myopia?

So what evidence do you have that Campbell and Leeds ever had any relationship at all in anything? That is what Cirba asked you and I'm asking you. Let's hope you don't just ignore this question as you have so many other relevant ones on here or just dance around it as you seem to be doing now with Cirba.

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
Why don't you start a new thread? I'll present what I have over there, and you can present what you have that shows Leeds was self taught.

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