[Joe Bausch]

A couple of recent finds.  Both are from the same article in the May 19, 1894 edition of the Boston Evening Transcript (a paper available on Google):

[Jeff_Brauer]

That seems to confirm that Appleton laid out his links in 1893, prior to Myopia and that Appleton influenced Myopia quite a bit, since they emulated his use of sod for greens and tees only.. And that greens were 1000 ft squares and tees were 10 x 10 feet squares on these early rudimentary courses. 

Also, may we presume that even using sod, courses probably were not opened in a matter of a few weeks, since both this and the second building of Myopia a few years later took until the next spring to open?  I think starting in March makes more sense for a June opening given the realities of grass growing then and now.  Yes, I know it doesn't specifically say he laid the sod the year before or put the trees on the golf course, but if he did, would he transplant the trees before building a golf course?

[Niall C]

Joe

Very interesting article. Assuming the report on the trees is accurate, 30 foot high seems a hell of a mature tree to plant, no ? Had this happened anywhere else at the time ?

Niall

[Jeff_Brauer]

Niall,

In college, I worked for a company that transplanted large trees in their landscaping.  It was risky even in 1976, so it had to be risky in 1893, and the article hints that the results were anything but assured.  That said I recall that they had done some historical research and concluded that large tree transplanting had a fairly long history and was attempted early.  It is just too enticing to estate landscapers to ignore, the idea of "instant effect" landscaping.

[john_stiles]

It's  37  pages.  

Let's not be  short sighted  and forget to present a summary.

How about a summary from each side as to their idea of the history from the early 1890s to the last US Open at Myopia.
Maybe  500 words or less.  Who did what, and when,  and if it is questionable in your mind, indicate so, maybe with double ??.  Do not bother with presenting an argument why you think so at this time.  Don't comment about the other persons summary. Just give an approximate date, and who did what.  Use a symbol like ?? if you think it is questionable date or statement.  Just write it down, use dates and names and what happened.

I flipped a coin and Mike goes first.
 

[Mike Cirba]

On the 11th fairway ay Harbour Town and can't read Joes article about the Master of the Hounds.

John,  you may want to re-flip. 

[Tom MacWood]

That seems to confirm that Appleton laid out his links in 1893, prior to Myopia and that Appleton influenced Myopia quite a bit, since they emulated his use of sod for greens and tees only.. And that greens were 1000 ft squares and tees were 10 x 10 feet squares on these early rudimentary courses. 

It does? How do you figure?

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

I figure both parts of the article are referring to his golf course, and it says that the tree planting took place last fall.  I did grant that they may be separate items, but I think they seem related by the word also.  It would also seem strange to me that he would lay out his own golf course after Myopia was having one laid out for him, but then, he may have wanted a private course.

[Phil_the_Author]

Hi Jeff,

"I figure both parts of the article are referring to his golf course, and it says that the tree planting took place last fall.  I did grant that they may be separate items, but I think they seem related by the word also.  It would also seem strange to me that he would lay out his own golf course after Myopia was having one laid out for him, but then, he may have wanted a private course."

Yes, it certainly does help for if one actually reads what was posted! 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Phil,

Thanks for chiming in.  It keeps me from thinking I am the one going crazy.

Happy New Year.

[Tom MacWood]

TMac,

I figure both parts of the article are referring to his golf course, and it says that the tree planting took place last fall.  I did grant that they may be separate items, but I think they seem related by the word also.  It would also seem strange to me that he would lay out his own golf course after Myopia was having one laid out for him, but then, he may have wanted a private course.

I think it is possible they are related, and if they are related wouldn't it make more sense to move the trees before sodding the golf course, and sodding the golf course in the spring? And if that is the case I read the report as the golf course was just laid out. As I mentioned several pages back the first mention I had found of the golf course at Appleton Farm was October 1894.

[Tom MacWood]

On the 11th fairway ay Harbour Town and can't read Joes article about the Master of the Hounds.

John,  you may want to re-flip.  

Its not the master of the hounds, it is his brother Francis R. Appleton. FR Appleton owned Appleton Farm, not R.M.

The other interesting point regarding Joe's find, the Myopia course does not appear to be laid out yet, and its mid May.

[DMoriarty]

Jeff Brauer,

While I am not surprised you chose to read it that way, that is by no means is the only interpretation, nor even necessarily the most reasonable one.    Thirty foot trees transplanted onto a golf course in 1893?     I think once again you are inserting your own ideas on how these things were done.  

Also, you say that it would be odd that Appleton would lay out his own course, but then have one laid out for him at Myopia.   Did you read the blurb?  It doesn't say he laid out the course himself.  Rather he had one laid out for him at his farm as well.  

(And Jeff, did you notice how I used "also?"  It was to indicate I was moving on to a different point, not to continue the previous point.)

Regardless, this article seems to indicate that they were NOT playing golf at Appleton farm before the 1894 season.   This despite the insistence by some that they were.  

How odd?  I could have sworn that we were told that mysterious contemporaneous documentation from the Appleton family proved otherwise.

________________________________________

Mike Cirba, when I say consider the source, I mean consider from where the information in the article likely came.  

In the case of the article I repeatedly posted, it seems to have come from someone who actually knew what he was talking about. Thus the accurate and detailed description of features on the course, the hole names, the results.   Whatever you think you have gleaned from other articles has no bearing on that one.  

(By the way, one of your reasons (your only reason) for doubting this article was because you thought it sounded gossipy to portray Dr. Hopkins as one with no playing experience.    Dr. Hopkins reportedly shot a 150 that day, a perfectly reasonable score for someone who had never played.)

Face it Mike.  Your attempts to discount this article by associating it to various other articles you mistakenly relied upon for rhetorical purposes just doesn't cut it.    

We have multiple contemporaneous accounts that WILLIE CAMPBELL LAID OUT THE COURSE sometime shortly before they began playing on the course in June of 1894.  And there is nothing contradicting this except for one account from a few years later indicating that Parker and Bush laid it out.  

John Stiles, thirty seven pages later, that last paragraph pretty much summarizes the contemporaneous evidence of what happened with the initial course in 1894.  

 

[Mike Cirba]

Those articles must be something else to require all that explanation to tell us what we read! 

[DMoriarty]

Those articles must be something else to require all that explanation to tell us what we read!  

As usual Mike, you are posting without thinking or even knowing what you are talking about.  It doesn't sound like you have read them, so I am not sure who "we" refers to.

[Tom MacWood]

Those articles must be something else to require all that explanation to tell us what we read!  

Mike
Why don't you give TEP a call, he has always been good at interpreting for you documents you've never seen (and may never see for numerous reasons).  

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

Nah, you and David are already making the contents very clear. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

First, I think we should thank Joe for some new source material. BTW, this article seems to be the same date as an earlier one posted, no? Is it new or just a new portion (or one I have forgotten?)  I presume its new and I am just discussing its possible implications to our debate here, and trying to do so in civil tones.  I have no trouble with others offering different scenarios.

TMac,

I know that today tree planting is left to last for a couple of reasons, but that doesn't mean they, being inexperienced might have done it differently.  And, I can see the interpretation that the golf course was laid out in the spring, and the tree planting last fall as an equally valid interpretation.

I remember your post about October 1894 and this appears to be a new and earlier reference to it having been laid out (it is past tense in May 1894).  Honestly, I posted my comment to support your idea that the course was laid out around then, whereas Weeks and TePaul suggest that it may have been as early as 1892, well prior to Myopia.  However, given the possible time lapse and nature of reporting back then, it makes sense to me that he made some start in 1893, even if not finished off until the spring of '94.  Either way, please explain to your friend David that he doesn't have to argue that I have disagreed with you when in reality, I have.  He either doesn't have the mental capacity or social skills to accept that or doesn't read very well.

David,

And I am not surprised that you are not surprised that I would interpret the article that way. However, I also offered the possibility of different interpretations. 

Please tell us why transplanting trees on a golf course in 1893 is so unbelievable, given its in a newspaper account (which according to you are nearly always right and to be trusted!), that I know trees that size had been transplanted in that era?  Granted, it may have been on other parts of his estate, but it seems those might have been done long ago, and the golf course was the area of the estate where he was currently working on changing the landscaping?

BTW, while your word parsing is technically correct, I am really wondering why he would need any kind of personal course when his club was building one at the same time. Also, where did I say that the article indicates they were playing golf before 1894?

Lastly, since this May article talks about the Appleton golf course in past tense, are you arguing that the first thing Willie C did was go up to Appleton's estate to lay out his golf course, or do you think the newspaper accounts of him spending his afternoons giving lessons at the golf club are more accurate?  While he could have certainly spared a day to get up there, its a pretty short window, and is that not real speculation on your part, given no evidence anywhere that he did? 


Happy New Year.

[Joe Bausch]

Below is that entire article from the May 19, 1894 edition of the Boston Evening Transcript.  I'm confident there might be some other material in there for some to latch onto to make their case. 

Note that Google somehow cleverly makes it so that you can't easily capture an entire large article (and not even from digging thru the cache on your web browser; if someone has figured out how to do this, please PM me).  Hence, this article was cobbled together from three screen grabs:





Also note that this article does not come up using the archive search feature.  And this is not unusual.  An area dying for big time improvement as this digitization of old articles ramps up is better OCR software.

[Phil_the_Author]

There has been much debate as to how the phrase "laid out" was used and understood in those days. There is an interesting usage of the term that may shed light on it.

In the second section, left hand column and last two lines, it states "A new tennis court has been laid out at the Phillips estate at North Beverly."

I sincerely doubt that anyone would read that as refering to the DESIGN of the court, but rather as the BUILDING of it. That certainly would seem to indicate that the use of the term "Laid out" in reference to Campbell was most likely meant as BUILDING and not DESIGNING. I say that because it is the terminology that was evidently common to those in that same area at the same time. Sort of like the use of the term "props" today. I still would never use it as a replacement for "earned respect" yet that it is understood that way by many can't be denied.

This certainly isn't proof that Campbell DIDN'T design the course, but rather is a strong indication that the articles that refer to him having "laid out" the course most likely were refering to a building of it...

[DMoriarty]

I presume its new and I am just discussing its possible implications to our debate here, and trying to do so in civil tones.  I have no trouble with others offering different scenarios.
. . .
 Either way, please explain to your friend David that he doesn't have to argue that I have disagreed with you when in reality, I have.  He either doesn't have the mental capacity or social skills to accept that or doesn't read very well.

Jeff Brauer,

Please don't pretend you are trying to be civil if you are going to write this crap a few lines later.  You placed the trees on the course, which is an unsupported assumption as far as I am concerned.  Even if you did allow that they may have been seperate events, am I not allowed to question your preferred interpretation?   Talk about "thin skin."

And you are the one misreading here, which is ironic given your rude comments posted above.  I never doubted he transplanted trees somewhere on his  600+ acre farm.  But I don't think your assumption that this was part of the golf course is justified.  Who knows what the trees were for?   This was 1893 and there were only a few golf courses in the entire country, and they were very rudimentary.   The transplant of 30 foot trees for a golf course as it was first being laid out (or even before) seems rather out of scale and character with the state of golf course design at this time.   These were generally primitive affairs, and as you note transplanting trees of of that size was pretty sophisticated stuff even then.

Here is a recent photo of a portion of Appleton Farms.  While I am not suggesting that these were the trees, this sort of application of trees seems much more likely to me.



- I never said you claimed they were golfing there before 1894.  But others certainly claimed this, and this article refutes the claim, despite representations that it was based on the type of unverified and mystical contemporaneous source material.  (Isn't this the very type of fantasy information that you have suggested should trump real information?)

- My "word parsing" was not only technically correct, it was substantively correct.  The May article said he had a course laid out, not that he laid it out.  That may well be an important substantive distinction. Your inability or unwillingness to even notice such distinctions is both technically and substantively sloppy.

- I don't know why Appleton wanted courses at the Country Club, his farm, and at Myopia, but I my guess is the same guy was responsible for the work done at all three in May of 1894.  And his name wasn't Appleton.

- Don't put your speculations about the timing of things into my mouth.  

__________________________________

Phillip,

The reason  we know that "to lay out a tennis court" did not connote design is because there is nothing to "design" on a tennis court.   What constituted a tennis court is specifically prescribed by the norms of the game.  This wasn't the case with golf courses.

But, as the tennis court example shows, "to lay out" generally meant to place on the ground.  The verb "to lay out" never meant only to design (for example on paper) but generally referred to the act of placing the course on the ground. And as you know,  many of these early courses were "designed" as they were laid out on the ground.  In fact with these very early professionals, it was commonplace for laying out a course and designing a course to be the same step.   In these cases, they were said to have "laid out" the course.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Joe,

I am not going to strain the eyes to read that whole thing, but I did note a mention that "Never so early has the season begun" at some resort or another, implying good weather in early spring, despite that early April snowstorm.  Not sure what that implies as per what happened at Myopia, if anything, but it certainly doesn't preclude them from starting early in that spring.

David,

Take a pill, bud.  I think my post was very civil to TMac, who seems to be in the spirit of the season and willing to interchange on new information.  My response to you was....well, not so much.  It was about in kind with your response to me.  Sad to say, I may not be capable of laughing off all your unpleasantness, try as I might. You do make it hard, my friend, especially since all I really am saying is that your speculations are no better than anyone else's no matter how much you believe them and you are certainly the rudest of the rude on these topics, and the thinnest skinned.  So much so, in fact, that you can't even admit to even one iota of unpleasantness on your part.  I know you never will, and me telling you won't change you, but occasionally I try!   However, I will try to do better in not lecturing and not chiding you in the New Year.  

That off my chest,  I do understand that those trees may have been planted anywhere on the estate and said so.  Either line of logic is equally plausible absent any real documentation to the contrary.  Mostly, I appreciate the pic of the Appleton Estate. It helps us all visualize it much better.

Happy New Year.

[Joe Bausch]

Joe,

I am not going to strain the eyes to read that whole thing,

Then paste this URL into your browser and adjust the article to a size that won't strain your eyes.   

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=8wk0AAAAIBAJ&sjid=eCMIAAAAIBAJ&pg=4880%2C1805613

[DMoriarty]

Jeff Brauer,

There was nothing personal in my post to you, just an honest assessment of your interpretation.  But as always, you chose to treat my rebuttals of your positions as a personal attack, and so, as usual, you lashed out at me, then blamed me for your rude behavior.   Again.   Yet I need to lighten up?   I'll file that with your statement that I need thicker skin.

As for Joe's article, I am not surprised that you feel qualified to theorize based on nothing but part of the first sentence. 

[Phil_the_Author]

David,

I disagree with your reasoning on the term "laid out" as it was used at that time and in that place by the same people. They certainly had the words "design" and "build" in their vocabularies yet chose a specific term that seems interchangeable when used in reference to tennis courst and golf courses. This is not surprising as both are sports/outdoor activities.

As I said in my initial post on this, I don't see the use of term to mean anything other than a report that Campbell "built" as it was the common term used for that expression. That having been said, I also stated that even as that was reported on it doesn't preclude his having designed the course by the use of that term, even by the simple act of staking it out.

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