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RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1225 on: December 27, 2010, 08:19:51 PM »
Gentlemen, what are the chances the course that Willie laid out was a bare-bones affair just to get the club started and then in following years all the other attributions of course construction kicked in?
Would the club have had a mower for the maintenance of the lawns of the club?
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 08:21:39 PM by RSLivingston_III »
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1226 on: December 27, 2010, 08:35:42 PM »
David Moriarty,

I would like to have answered your questions by now, but I've been much too busy today being a lying lapdog toady to Tom Paul and being repeatedly embarrassed by your superior intellect, so I'm not sure exactly why you care what I think or have to say on the matter.

By the time I carried Tom's barbells from his basement to his attic, shoveled the snow from his driveway, washed his laundry, fetched his pipe, and transcribed/typed his personal diatribes to 100 or so old-line, establishment clubs asking them to hide, burn, or otherwise destroy their historical records and archives lest their massive conspiracy to hide THE TRUTH of their architectural myths and legends from the unsuspecting public be revealed now that old newspapers are available and search-able online by anyone (including moi) in five seconds or less, which mixed with lots of coffee and a dash of the good stuff can make anyone an online 'expert' researcher (including moi) in no time at all, I was much too pooped and beat down to come up with anything resembling cogent thought or analysis.

Seriously, David...lighten up.   I can see the veins popping on your forehead from here and life is too short.

I'm going to attempt a post tomorrow in which I will sum up a lot of thoughts on this and other matters, and attempt to answer your questions here in a way that is civil, is thorough, and that attempts to set a different tone going forward.

I hope you take it in that light and proceed in the same manner.   Believe it or not, I really don't enjoy arguing with you here, and I'm quite sure no one else here enjoys it either.  

Have a good night and let's both try something much different in 2011.   I'm hoping Tom Paul and Tom MacWood see the light as well and we can have some good discussions and debates without it degenerating into strife and bloodshed.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 08:40:27 PM by MCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1227 on: December 27, 2010, 09:20:20 PM »
I never called you a "toady"  but if name fits . . .

I am not interested in you burying your answer in  one of your rambling summaries, but just rather in answers to those two questions.  It should be an easy matter given that both questions are born of your statement about the reports.

---------------------------------------

Ralph

That could be and probably is the case.  But that bare bones affair may have provided the basis for at least some of what followed.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1228 on: December 27, 2010, 09:35:00 PM »
David,

It won't be buried.

I really want to fully explore the value of and reliance on using vintage newspaper articles as primary source material for architectural historical research.

It is a topic whose time has come here, and I think we need an honest discussion on the topic, with the articles we've all posted on this thread serving as Exhibits A-Z.

Good night.
 

TEPaul

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1229 on: December 27, 2010, 10:13:19 PM »
"It has as much wrong as Willie Dunn's recollections of the formation of the course, and TEPaul has pronounced Dunn to be the biggest liar in the world."


I would certainly not say that about Samuel Parrish's Reminiscences that were asked for by Shinnecock president de Kountze in 1923. It seem to me the only real mistake in that chronicle Parrish made was to mistake Davis's name for Dunn's.

What Dunn did with his article or recollection after obviously seeing how Parrish had used his name for what Davis did was really egregious unless Dunn had lost his memory or his mind at that point.

I'm not even that intrigued by Dunn taking credit from Davis for Shinnecock or Newport, I'm more intrigued in what Dunn said about when the year was he got to America or even Shinnecock which really seems to be a timeline fart on his part forty years after the fact, or whenever it was he produced that massive fabrication he wrote which was reproduced on here.

So other than that what else, in your opinion or "version" ;)  did Parrish get wrong in his 1923 Reminiscences, Moriarty?    
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 10:30:13 PM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1230 on: December 27, 2010, 10:23:55 PM »
This thread is about Willie Campbell, not Willie Dunn.    Like Mr. Parrish you seem to have trouble with your Willie's.   Maybe it is an age thing. I'll be glad to tell you the other errors in Parrish.  Just as soon as you provide the evidentiary support for your various claims.  In the other thread of course.

And your welcome, by the way, for me finding that document and point you to it. 

Isn't it interesting certain of us readily share information, and others horde it and lord over it, as if access itself were knowledge and understanding.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1231 on: December 27, 2010, 10:31:41 PM »
Mike
I've not seen any reports of Leeds going to Shinnecock that early, nor any report of him playing the game that early. He did go to Shinnecock in 1896 (or at least was scheduled to go) along with two other Myopia mates, Quincy Adams Shaw and Willie Campbell. QA Shaw is a very interesting person, being credited with the design the lost gem Cedar Banks near Easton on the Cape.

Is it wishful thinking that he played the game that early or do you have some solid evidence?
« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 06:25:24 AM by Tom MacWood »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1232 on: December 27, 2010, 10:37:52 PM »
David,

It won't be buried.

I really want to fully explore the value of and reliance on using vintage newspaper articles as primary source material for architectural historical research.

No Mike.  My questions have nothing to do with the general value of or reliance upon old newspaper accounts, and I won't sit silently while you try to turn my questions into something that they are not.  Start a new thread if you want to discuss articles generally.

My questions are about one particular newspaper article. One I find particularly compelling for reasons explained before, and one about which you have made specific claims that are not only unsupportable, they are indicative of your entire approach to this subject matter.

I want to fully explore the vast gaps between your bombastic claims and the actual factual record, as well as the inherent problems with your dismissal of this particular newspaper article.    You claimed that this article contained "laughable, obvious mistakes throughout."   You compared it to toilet paper, and claimed that accepting it as true would mean that the clubs would need to "burn their club minutes and contemporaneous records and recollections and rewrite their history."

So, back up your claims.  

Here again is the article.  Read it carefully.    Then explain me again how you can so easily dismiss it, and point toward those portions of Myopia's record that contradicts it.  

It is time for you to quit playing games and start HONESTLY dealing with the source material.    



1. Where, specifically, are the "laughable, obvious mistakes throughout?"  Because I see none.

2. What specific portions of Myopia's club minutes does this contradict, and what records and recollections does it call into question?   Because I am unaware of any such minutes, records, or recollections.    

Thanks.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 10:44:20 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1233 on: December 27, 2010, 10:51:17 PM »
"And your welcome, by the way, for me finding that document and point you to it. 
Isn't it interesting certain of us readily share information, and others horde it and lord over it, as if access itself were knowledge and understanding."


David Moriarty:

The thing that fascinates me about you and Tom MacWood is apparently information, any information at all, is like currency to you two on here. Obviously you two believe if you find something, anything at all, no matter how irrelevant from the past like some 100 year old newspaper blurb that it will make you two look like you are some kind of star "independent" ;) researchers or some such crock of shit.

The fact is I have had that Parrish Reminiscence on my computer for maybe ten years because we really have worked with Shinnecock and Goddard.

You are the one, not me, who decided to present "your version" of Shinnecock's early history about a week ago but Goddard did that before you and a whole lot better than you did about 10-15 years before you.

You could have saved yourself some research time and work had you only bothered to go to Shinnecock, establish a working relationship with them, and read what he wrote! But that isn't the way an insecure, hysterical, third rate researcher/analyst like you goes about it, is it?

So which significant golf course are you going to make your "new version" subject next. My money has been on Oakmont. That should suit you because you've never been there either!  ;)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1234 on: December 27, 2010, 11:13:46 PM »
Give me a break TEPaul.   I don't give a damn what might or might not be in your "shared source" file.  You didn't bother to read that Parrish work until my thread.   Just like you ADMITTEDLY didn't bother to read the Goddard book.  

The only reason I brought it up is that I get a kick out of you suddenly pretending to be an expert on material I just brought to your attention, while at the same time you continue to lash out at my research.   There is more than a little irony there, as you past post shows.  

Plus, Tom, the information is no currency to me.  Which is why I readily share it.  You on the other hand horde it. Undertanding is currency to me, but I generously share that to, even with the likes of you.

Even more than information, your currency is access, but you prove daily that, by itself, all the access in the world cannot bring you even the most understanding of what happened at these places.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 11:18:33 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1235 on: December 27, 2010, 11:43:33 PM »
David, I've just got to tell you, all things considered with what you've said on this website in the last day or so since you launched into your inexplicable state of hysteria-----you really do make me laugh! Truly! I mean that. Happy New Year to you!  ;)

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1236 on: December 28, 2010, 08:14:57 AM »
David,

Fair enough....

During the Merion discussions you and Tom MacWood questioned and discounted the validity of reports by such long term, knowledgeable, "insider" writers like William H. Evans and AW Tilllinghast who credited Hugh Wilson and his committee.   From your perspective, they were reporting "second hand", and unless we could prove they were there at the moment all this was happening you preferred, nay demanded that their accounts were to be viewed as suspect.

Yet suddenly, on this thread, we have an unknown gossip reporter at the very birth of golf in that town who has reported everything from "two new links" opening at Myopia to calling beginner Dr. SA Hopkins remarkably skilled at the game one week after he supposedly held a club for the first time.   We have other contemporaneous reports here that HC Leeds only started golfing in the spring of 1894, and reports where the opening tournament at Myopia is called the Opening tournament at Essex County in Manchester, and reports where even you objected, as the three men that Weeks and May told us laid out the course are referred to as "experts".   We have examples where reporters in one paper stole other reports from other papers openly.   We have reports that continually blend the openings of Myopia and Essex County, which we know was laid out by Campbell, as if they are one course.

Do we have any idea what the golfing knowledge was of this gossip columnist?   Do we have any idea what he thinks the term "laid out" even means?   Do we know if this writer even plays golf or is familiar with the game??   Do we have any idea who or what his sources are??

Yet, after discounting reputable, knowledgeable sources in the case of Merion, you are prepared to tell us that a gossip columnist who had made egregious mistakes such as "two new links" in his column should suddenly be empowered 100+ years later to rewrite the Myopia history, without any of us even looking to internal club documents at Myopia?    Do we think that Weeks and May just made this stuff up??   

Golf writing was brand new in this country back then.   What was their knowledge base??   Even 15 years later we have reports that HH Barker is going to lay out a course at Merion, which has no other support, and another report that the course was laid out by Fred Pickering.

I have reports of Cobbs Creek designed by Park Engineer Jesse Vogdes, and  others that say William Flynn did it.

Should I rewrite my book on Cobbs Creek?   Hardly....I just include those items to show a different picture, a different perspective, but trust that the volume of evidence citing others will be apparent to the reader.

Until we find a way here to include ALL source material, including contemporaneous club records, then these attribution debates are at a dead end and we can argue about it until the cows come home and guess what....not a thing will change and it won't matter one bit to anyone outside of the few of us who participate on these things here.   From a club's perspective, I can't imagine a one of them who look in on these debates and don't shudder.   I can't imagine them wanting to share their private records here to be parsed and dissected for our collective entertainment, even if it leads to greater understanding here, and personally, I can both understand as well as respect that.

For my part, I'm done with it.   It's a dead-end, and it's gone on too long, and for very little benefit.

I hope you have a Happy New Year.   

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1237 on: December 28, 2010, 08:40:32 AM »
David,

Fair enough....

During the Merion discussions you and Tom MacWood questioned and discounted the validity of reports by such long term, knowledgeable, "insider" writers like William H. Evans and AW Tilllinghast who credited Hugh Wilson and his committee.   From your perspective, they were reporting "second hand", and unless we could prove they were there at the moment all this was happening you preferred, nay demanded that their accounts were to be viewed as suspect.

Yet suddenly, on this thread, we have an unknown gossip reporter at the very birth of golf in that town who has reported everything from "two new links" opening at Myopia to calling beginner Dr. SA Hopkins remarkably skilled at the game one week after he supposedly held a club for the first time.   We have other contemporaneous reports here that HC Leeds only started golfing in the spring of 1894, and reports where the opening tournament at Myopia is called the Opening tournament at Essex County in Manchester, and reports where even you objected, as the three men that Weeks and May told us laid out the course are referred to as "experts".   We have examples where reporters in one paper stole other reports from other papers openly.   We have reports that continually blend the openings of Myopia and Essex County, which we know was laid out by Campbell, as if they are one course.

Do we have any idea what the golfing knowledge was of this gossip columnist?   Do we have any idea what he thinks the term "laid out" even means?   Do we know if this writer even plays golf or is familiar with the game??   Do we have any idea who or what his sources are??

Yet, after discounting reputable, knowledgeable sources in the case of Merion, you are prepared to tell us that a gossip columnist who had made egregious mistakes such as "two new links" in his column should suddenly be empowered 100+ years later to rewrite the Myopia history, without any of us even looking to internal club documents at Myopia?    Do we think that Weeks and May just made this stuff up??  

Golf writing was brand new in this country back then.   What was their knowledge base??   Even 15 years later we have reports that HH Barker is going to lay out a course at Merion, which has no other support, and another report that the course was laid out by Fred Pickering.

I have reports of Cobbs Creek designed by Park Engineer Jesse Vogdes, and  others that say William Flynn did it.

Should I rewrite my book on Cobbs Creek?   Hardly....I just include those items to show a different picture, a different perspective, but trust that the volume of evidence citing others will be apparent to the reader.

Until we find a way here to include ALL source material, including contemporaneous club records, then these attribution debates are at a dead end and we can argue about it until the cows come home and guess what....not a thing will change and it won't matter one bit to anyone outside of the few of us who participate on these things here.   From a club's perspective, I can't imagine a one of them who look in on these debates and don't shudder.   I can't imagine them wanting to share their private records here to be parsed and dissected for our collective entertainment, even if it leads to greater understanding here, and personally, I can both understand as well as respect that.

For my part, I'm done with it.   It's a dead-end, and it's gone on too long, and for very little benefit.

I hope you have a Happy New Year.  

Mike
That has got be one of the weakest responses you have ever come up with. You did not address his questions. What little credibility you may have had as an objectively judging these historical issues is gone. You've made a mockery of it.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 08:45:52 AM by Tom MacWood »

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1238 on: December 28, 2010, 09:04:31 AM »
Tom MacWood,

That's just the point, isn't it?

Once you try to rewrite history without using any primary source materials and purposefully ignoring official club documents you've already made a mockery of it.

Happy New Year to you.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1239 on: December 28, 2010, 10:19:53 AM »
Tom MacWood,

That's just the point, isn't it?

Once you try to rewrite history without using any primary source materials and purposefully ignoring official club documents you've already made a mockery of it.

Happy New Year to you.

This coming from guy who relies almost exclusively on newspaper and magazine articles....see your Pocono Manor history. To my knowledge, the only thing you've presented on GCA. Though thats not totally accurate, you have presented boat load of info on Hugh Wilson, again all from newspapers and magazines.

As far as purposely ignoring club documents, I know you and TEP consider club histories official club documents, but I don't know any credible historian who would share that view.

Have a Happy New Year!
« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 10:21:59 AM by Tom MacWood »

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1240 on: December 28, 2010, 10:42:17 AM »
Tom MacWood,

Given your reticence to use club information or deal directly with clubs, I can certainly understand why you would try to defend the obvious mistakes and inaccuracies found in the early news accounts around Boston, and speaking as someone who has done newspaper searches in libraries for over 20 years (back to the microfiche days) I would say to you that I've seen enough errors, inaccuracies, inconsistencies, confusion, and agenda-driven reporting to only use them confidently as corroborating information.   Given your similar passion for the history of architecture, I know you've seen enough crap and misleading reporting in your time, as well.

I think the best way to do that is to say, "there were several reports at the time of the first tournament at Myopia that professional Willie Campbell "laid out" the course.   What do the club records say in that regard?   Is there a mention of what Campbell did for the club in the history or in any club documents?"   Personally, I think that sets an entirely different tone for actual discussion here.

The irony is that until I went to Myopia recently, and until David unearthed this thread, I had only read this thread periodically and was fairly confident that Campbell was indeed the architect.   It was only when I began doing my own searches for materials and came across what was really just an amazing flurry of inaccuracies and outright copying of obvious MISinformation from one paper to another that I became much less convinced.

Perhaps I should have known when the very first article I found referred to "Prof. Campbell", as if he was a professor and not a golf professional that I was dealing with "beginner" golf writers.   Actually, they weren't golf writers at all...they were society gossip columnists, and if you believe guys like HC Leeds were only beginners in the new game in this country you have to realistically ask yourself what they hell these writers knew about the game when they referred to Myopia opening "two new links", or reported the opening day tournament at Myopia as having taken place at Essex, or stated that HC Leeds had only started playing the game in the spring of 1894, or called Dr. Hopkins' skill just amazing a week after he first touched a club.

In the end, as I mentioned, I believe both stories are true.   I believe the three members staked out the course in the spring and I believe Willie Campbell helped them build  it and perhaps also changed their routing...we don't know, and until someone actually sees the club minutes and can confirm one way or another, this is the reality of our debate.

I do find it amazing and a little surprising that you guys could have summarily discounted and sought to discredit all the experienced, insider golf writers around Philadelphia who wrote that Hugh Wilson and company designed Merion, yet now find these reports in high society gossip columns from obviously inexperienced writers on the subject of the game of golf to be gospel and a better source of information than Weeks or May.   I'm sure you could probably both cite some inconsistencies on my part, so mea culpa in advance, and no need to waste time typing them because I won't be responding until a different tone becomes the norm here, which I see about a 5% chance of ever happening.

Have a Happy New Year, Tom...I'm sorry that things are so strained here, and hope for better things between us in the future.

 
« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 10:46:50 AM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1241 on: December 28, 2010, 10:58:39 AM »
Mike
You are hypocrite.

Have a Happy New Year!

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1242 on: December 28, 2010, 11:29:56 AM »

Mike
You are hypocrite.

Have a Happy New Year!


Tom,

We both (all) are hypocritical here, but I feel confident I'm on surer footing questioning the golf knowledge and reporting accuracy of a Boston high society gossip columnist at the nascent beginnings of the game in that city than trying to make A.W. Tillinghast and William H. Evans look like uninformed cub reporters, especially considering we KNOW that Tillinghast spoke directly to Macdonald about the work at Merion while it was ongoing and still reported that Hugh Wilson and crew designed the course.  

Actually, do you want to know what the real irony of all these architectural attribution arguments is?

The real irony is that proof of the most unknown, vital contribution of anyone besides Hugh Wilson and company at Merion was not found in any newspaper or periodical, but instead was found in the Merion Cricket Club minutes.

Until those minutes were found and posted on here, no one ever knew that CB Macdonald came back down to Merion to help them select the best of the routing plans that Wilson and Company had created.

THAT is precisely why we need to try to include and consider and deal with primary source information from the clubs themselves if we're actually going to try to understand that history accurately, much less try to re-write it.  

Otherwise we're simply shooting in the dark and any picture we try to paint is by definition, incomplete and subject to valid criticism and even academic derision.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 12:12:46 PM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1243 on: December 28, 2010, 01:29:45 PM »
Mike
I have grave reservations about responding to your typically weak Merion alibi for fear that this thread will be turned into another Merion rehashing, which no doubt you would love to see.

No one questioned Tilly's contemporaneous reports, he consistently said Wilson headed the construction committee. I questioned Evans later accounts (one or two or more years later) because I don't believe he knew what the hell he was talking about, in fact I think he is probably most responsible for the confusion that remains today.

Apples and oranges, the Campbell reports came days after the course opened, Evans reports came a couple of years after two Merion courses opened, which by the way had very different design processes (the East & West that is).

No, you are the hypocrite in this case.  

Have a Happy New Year, all the best to you and yours!
« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 01:34:11 PM by Tom MacWood »

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1244 on: December 28, 2010, 01:36:13 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Happy New Year to you and yours too!

I'm planning to come to Ohio some time in the coming year and would enjoy getting together and perhaps play a round of golf.

I'll let you know as plans firm up in a few months.

Mike

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1245 on: December 28, 2010, 07:53:03 PM »
Mike
That sounds good, I look forward to it. We can visit a local golf library, and I'll let you tell me what is primary source material and what documents make a mockery of such material.

Happy New Year!

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1246 on: December 28, 2010, 11:06:43 PM »
Mike Cirba,

A lecture from you on how to use old newspaper articles doesn't move me much.   

Returning to the topic at hand, despite repeatedly representing that you would, you have yet to answer my questions. What gives?  It should be no trouble, given that I am only asking you to back up your claims, and about only a single article. Here it is again.



Your Claims:

1.  The article contains "laughable, obvious mistakes throughout."
2.  The article is akin to toilet paper.  "Charmin," specifically. 
3.  The article contradicts the club records to the extent, that, if the article was taken seriously, the club might as well "burn their club minutes and contemporaneous records and recollections and rewrite their history."

My Questions:
1. What, specifically, are the "laughable, obvious mistakes throughout this article?" Because I see none.

2. What specific portions of Myopia's club minutes does this article contradict, and what records and recollections does the article call into question?   Because I am unaware of any such minutes, records, or recollections.   

Thanks.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1247 on: December 29, 2010, 05:49:04 AM »
(sorry if this has been posted already; I've only read 24 of the 36 pages;   ;)  )

From the July 24, 1897 edition of the Boston Evening Transcript:

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

TEPaul

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1248 on: December 29, 2010, 08:13:42 AM »
Joe:

That article reflects the 1897 purchase of Dr. S.A. Hopkins's 51 acres by the club. The price was $3,500. This was the same land on which most of three holes of the 1894 nine were on. Logically, they would have been #2, #3 and #4.

The interesting thing and obviously the confusing thing is those holes were actually given up with the "Long Nine course" on which the 1898 US Open was played. Those holes were replaced by three new holes that are on the other side of the course that were on what is called the ridge or the uphill holes (today's #14, #15, #16 and #7, #8 and #9 on the Long Nine).

However, that land (Hopkins's) was used again when Leeds developed the eighteen hole course after 1898 that was ready for play in 1900 and on which the 1901 US Open was played. They are the present #4 (the second half of it), #5, #6 and #7.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 08:16:07 AM by TEPaul »

Phil_the_Author

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1249 on: December 29, 2010, 10:56:31 AM »
Tom,

I'm not doubting what you said, but 51 acres seems like a lot of land, especially in the 1890's, for only 3 & 1/2 holes. Why did they use so little of it for golf?

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