[DMoriarty]

Mike,

There was nothing funny about my post.  It was serious and probably obviously blunt but believe it or not, I was trying to do you and the rest of us a favor.  I am disappointed yet not surprised that instead of taking my post to heart, you continue on in the next post with more of the same.

It is really too bad, because you obviously care very much about the history golf course architecture and apparently have infinite time to pursue it, yet your inability and/or unwillingness to reasonably deal with the source material bogs us all down.  In short, you waste your time and ours with this endless ridiculous rhetoric.

I know you and your cronies will take this as the highest arrogance and condescension on my part, and perhaps rightfully so.  Be that as it may, there is a lot of truth to what I am saying, and years of past discussions verifying it.  Maybe if you get a moment over the holidays you will get a chance to take a step back and consider your track record with this sort of thing, and reconsider your approach.  That would be a welcome Christmas miracle for all of us.    

Happy Holidays.  

[TEPaul]

"In the mean time answer this question I asked several posts back.

If Campbell was not the primary influence on Leeds' early golf architecture, than who or what was?

Also do you think it is fair to say Campbell was best golfer in America when he came over in 1894? Best golf architect? Top teacher?"



Tom MacWood:

I would say in 1894 Willie Campbell was definitely one of the very best players in America and certainly of the ones who actually emigrated to America at that time. Obviously Park Jr came over here then and beat him but Park went home, only to return briefly until he came over here permanently in the teens. I would also say that Campbell probably was one of the very best teachers and certainly around Boston in 1894. Another good teacher over here then was obviously Willie Davis.  But that does not automatically or necessarily mean he taught Leeds how to play golf, particularly considering the way Leeds famously felt about professionals and the fact that the historic word on Leeds as a golfer was that he was self-taught.

As to who was the primary influence on Leeds with architecture, well that is the question isn't it? In the same vein, you seem to automatically assume just because Campbell was a good golfer he was also a great architect and that he must have influenced Leeds. I just wouldn't make that automatic assumption. Leeds very well may've been self taught at that too, as he most certainly was a very intelligent and highly educated man. And we sure don't really know if Leeds had been abroad before or during that time, particularly given what seems to be known about him as an international competitive sailor probably including the America Cup races. They were very big at that time and some New Yorkers and Bostonians he knew well were some of its biggest sponsors.

As I keep telling you, Tom, your little newspaper articles don't really cut it with a subject this complex. They are just little blurbs and to understand people like Leeds you really do have to understand the larger culture and world he lived in and the people who populated it and the fact is you just don't understand that or certainly not very well.

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
That is the problem with you, you assume way too often. This has been a long thread and I've never claimed Campbell was a great architect, and I've never claimed Leeds was a great architect either. By modern standards I don't think either man was a great architect. They were both historically important architects, and good architects relative to their time. And of the two I'd say Campbell's accomplishments are more impressive. It is rare when a man has that kind of impact on the development of golf in a country.

Architects are not self taught. They are all influenced by what they've seen and experienced, and by what they like. Leeds had been abroad numerous times prior to 1892, but not once from the time he learned of the game of golf until Campbell died in 1900. So you can forget that theory. What do you think were his primary influences?

Where do you get your information that Leeds was self taught as a golfer? I think he was a very gifted athlete, and was extraordinarily focused and dedicated about every athletic endeavor he became interested in, but I've never seen anything indicating he refused to be taught.

[Mike Cirba]

Just to rely on facts and not conjecture, I think an accurate, fair and balanced picture of how this played out and what Campbell's influence (at least in terms of teaching if not architecture) on the earliest Boston golfers like HC Leeds can be seen in the following snippet from "The Golfer", in 1995, as well as punctuated with the 1893 articles that mention the men who had been at it since the very beginning of golf in the city;

"Below we present a photograph of Mr.
Morton J. Henry, winner of the amateur
championship of the Country Club, Brookline,
Mass., on November 9th, and the Myopia championship
on November 11th .  Mr. Henry was
among the very first, in New England, certainly,
and possibly in the entire country, to be attracted
by the possibilities of the ancient and
royal game for recreative enjoyment, athletic
exercise and manual skill.  He commenced
playing on the course laid out by Mr. H. H
Hunnewell, Jr., at his extensive and beautiful
country seat in Wellesley, — one of the first, if
not the very first golf links in this section.
The novices in golf at the Hunnewell course
formed a self-tutored set of players, no professional
being in the country at the time, and it
was two years later, when Campbell was engaged
by the Country Club as instructor at
Brookline.  Mr. Henry is frank in acknowledgement
ol his indebtednes to Campbell,
and also to Mackerel! for the proficiency he
acquired under their instruction."


November 1893




December 1893





I would also ask before going away for a few days whether or not there is any account of Campbell laying out Myopia either prior to the creation of the course, or not associated with the Opening Day tournament?  

I ask for a very specific reason which I'll discuss further when I return.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
Are you trying to make a case that Leeds was self tutored or that Campbell was the one who taught them really how to play golf, its unclear?

[Mike Cirba]

And now for some pure conjecture...

Some of you likely remember when I posted this article previously from April 15th, 1894, which lists the creation of a subcommittee at Myopia, the location of the third member A.P. Gardner in Hamilton at the time, and then talks about Willie Campbell's assignment that year to Essex County in June.




And then later, on June 10th, I copied the following story that very strangely talked about "two new links"

June 10th, 1894,


•Bunker Hill day will be observed
at the Myopia hunt by the initial games
in two newly laid out golf links. The
expert players who will take part are
Mr W. B. Thomas, Mr R. M. Appleton,
Mr A. P. Gardner and Mr T. Wattson
Merrill.


And then later still I posted the Opening Day tournament results;




So far, so good...except for the strange reference to "two links", seemed straight forward enough..

Then, the other day, Joe Bausch was doing some research in another newspaper and sent me this snippet from June 15th;




What?!   Another reference to "two new links"?   Could there be two courses built at Myopia opening at the same time??


No, not really...

Besides the fact that it seems these newspapers shared information, the following article from June 19, 1894 Joe sent to me sheds some light on the confusion of the writer(s).




So, this is why I asked the question whether there is any other source of evidence, anywhere, that indicates that Willie Campbell had either planned (pre tournament) to lay out the Myopia course, or anything not associated with the tournament that indicated he did, and what was the source of that information?

We do know he went to Essex County that year, and that he laid out a new course for that club in around the same time.

If the novice Boston golf writers of the time were just trying to figure out what this new-fangled game was all about, and were cobbling information, good and bad, from each other, are we absolutely certain that references to Campbell at Myopia weren't in fact confusing it with his new course at Essex??

This is why I think total reliance on news articles paints a very incomplete picture, and they are indeed fallible as we've seen here.

Willie Campbell may very well have been involved in laying out Myopia, but I have a heck of lot less certainty about that than I did a few weeks ago before starting to dig into this thing...

Happy Holidays, everyone.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
I'm not sure I understand your questions. Why do selective chose the reports dealing with development of Myopia? Wouldn't it be more useful to include all the articles in order to get a better more complete picture? What newspaper were the articles from June 15th and Junes 19th from?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

I'm not sure I understand your first question...I re-posted everything I had up until the course opening (except for the one about the sheep) from the Boston Daily Globe.

Joe's are from the Boston Evening Telegraph.

Do you know of any articles not associated with the opening day tournament that cite Campbell laying out Myopia?   I ask because I can't recall any, and other accounts of early Boston golf such as George H. Sargent's make clear Campbell laid out TCC's 18 hole course and Franklin Park but don't similarly mention that he did Myopia.

And you are also aware that "The Golfer" in 1898 mentions Campbell's work at other courses yet very strangely doesn't mention any responsibility for the existing course at Myopia..

"The new links [Cambridge GC] will complete a trio of eighteen-hole courses for this neighborhood. The famous County Club of Brookline has had a full course laid out by Campbell, who also planned the course of the Cambridge Club, and the Myopia Hunt club has taken steps to bring its links up to the standard number of holes."

I'm not saying he wasn't involved, Tom...but a simple newspaper article mistake copied among the local sources could indeed explain why there is apparently no hint of Campbell in the cub records as far as architectural attribution, nor in the club history book.

Certainly the confusion of Essex for Myopia indicates a certain unfamiliarity with the territory, and a lack of first-hand knowledge of the subject matter among the local press...

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
You are selectively picking and choosing which articles you include. You are not presenting the total picture. I was just wondering why you would do that. Personally I think it is a little dishonest, but you tend to go that direction with historical issues.

You are missing the article from the BG May 13 about the introduction of sheep, from the BG June 17 that initial games with be tomorrow on the new links, from the BDA June 19 about the new links recently laid out by Campbell, from the Boston Journal Junes 19 about the new links laid out by Campbell, from the Boston Evening Transcript about the new links recently laid out by Campbell.

What newspaper do the articles from June 15th and Junes 19th come from?

There weren't that many clubs in Boston in 1894, confusion between Myopia and Essex seems extremely unlikely, and the article about Mrs Willie Campbell from 1902, which also says WC laid out Myopia, should be an end to the line of doubt.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

The only one in my possession I didn't repost is this;

On May 13th, 1894 the Boston Daily Globe had a similar report that made clear that the location for the course had been determined but the holes had yet to be "laid out".

-A flock of sheep will soon provide a
picturesque feature Irt the landscape at
the Myopia hunt grounds In HamUton
The sheep will serye a utilitarian end
at the same time. They will be pastured
over the tract on which the golf links
will be laid out, and win crop the sur
face close and smooth; This links will
be so situated as to^ allow spectators to
view.from an elevated point the work of
the players over the whole course. Golf
play will probably begin June 1.

The June 15th and 19th articles as I mentioned are from the Boston Evening Telegraph.

David had previously posted this one from June 23rd, which also seems to indicate a lot of overlap between the Myopia and Essex stories, and seems associated with the opening.




Are there any articles attributing Campbell with Myopia that aren't associated with the opening day tournament?    Either prior to the tournament, or months after??

[TEPaul]

The best source of information on the begiinnings of golf at Myopia can be found in Edward Weeks's history book, including the fact that three members routed the original nine. Information reflecting that was found in the club's records. It is also possible to track what remains of those holes that were used in the eighteen hole course that was done by H.C. Leeds that made the golf course famous. Obviously analyzing any architectural evolution of a golf course that old is not the easiest thing to do but since Myopia is so well preserved, in its case it really isn't all that complicated either. Neither the club records nor its history book mentioned Willie Campbell and it seems clear now there was no significant reason to do so. However, if people on an architectural website, some of whom have never even seen the course or the club's records, want to speculate on some irrelevances, I suppose there's no particular reason not to if they think that kind of irrelevant speculation is worth their time.

[Tom MacWood]

Are there any articles attributing Campbell with Myopia that aren't associated with the opening day tournament?    Either prior to the tournament, or months after??

To my knowledge there is only the one, the article about Mrs. Campbell from 1902. You also have the later account from the historian who researched Campbell's life for his honoring at TCC in 1999, but that is later.

So in review that is a total of four contemporaneous articles saying Campbell laid out the course. How many do you have that claim the Squire & Co laid out the course?

[Tom MacWood]

The Boston Evening Telegraph or the Boston Evening Transcript? 

[Mike Cirba]

Tom.

My point is there is nothing about anyone prior to that tournament and anyone researching after may have used the same bit of misinformation.

I believe the latter paper...Joe can verify.

[Joe Bausch]

The latter (Boston Evening Transcript).

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
There are no prior reports of Campbell laying out Brookline and Essex either. But that really isn't surprising considering the laying out of golf courses, and what it all entailed, was a foreign idea at the time. We do know the sheep were on their way at Myopia prior to the opening, a tell tailed signed Campbell was involved. Frankly there were more reports of Campbell laying out Myopia than there were of him laying out Brookline or Essex. I believe I have one regarding each course. The difference is today Brookline and Essex acknowledge Campbell laid their courses, but Myopia, thanks to Weeks, has dropped the ball.

[TEPaul]

"The difference is today Brookline and Essex acknowledge Campbell laid their courses, but Myopia, thanks to Weeks, has dropped the ball."


That seems to be the opinion of at least two people on an Internet site, neither of whom have ever seen Myopia or its records. However, from what I know of and from Myopia itself, at this time, Myopia does not believe that opinion is credible or convincing at least in the matter of who routed Myopia's original nine hole course in 1894.

And regarding TCC at Brookline, they actually credit three members, Messrs Arthur Hunnewell, Laurence Curtis and Robert Bacon with laying out the original holes of that course on November 29, 1892.

[Tom MacWood]

"The difference is today Brookline and Essex acknowledge Campbell laid their courses, but Myopia, thanks to Weeks, has dropped the ball."


That seems to be the opinion of at least two people on an Internet site, neither of whom have ever seen Myopia or its records. However, from what I know of and from Myopia itself, at this time, Myopia does not believe that opinion is credible or convincing at least in the matter of who routed Myopia's original nine hole course in 1894.

And regarding TCC at Brookline, they actually credit three members, Messrs Arthur Hunnewell, Laurence Curtis and Robert Bacon with laying out the original holes of that course on November 29, 1892.

TEP
Your statement comes as no surprise, since you've been saying the same thing for months despite the wealth of documentation to the contrary. Campbell laid out a new nine at TCC in 1894, which is acknowledged by the club. It is interesting to compare that original six to the course laid out by Campbell.

[TEPaul]

"It is interesting to compare that original six to the course laid out by Campbell."


Yes it is and it's also interesting to track and compare the entire architectural evolution of TCC at Brookline. It is also interesting to track and compare the architectural evolution of the original 1894 nine at Myopia through the Leeds's Long Nine and through Leeds's eighteen hole course. At least that's what Myopia has done and is still interested in doing in more detail.

[Joe Bausch]

Not sure if this course has been mentioned, this from the May 14, 1898 edition of the Boston Evening Transcript.



Of course boys and girls, nothing published in newspapers is correct.  So at least we've ruled out that Willie Campbell laid out this 9-holer.  

I see there is a 9 hole course currently near New Bedford called Hawthorne Country Club, but I don't know if that is the same course mentioned above.

[Mike Cirba]

For what it's worth, I keep a database of architectural attributions for courses I've played, and in the case of Myopia, I've listed it as Appleton, Gardner, Merill, and Willie Campbell, 1894.

I still believe that both stories are very likely true, and after reading more of Weeks' account today it is very clear that he had access to not only the Dacre Bush account (who was Secretary of the Golf Committee in 1895 and probably the year prior), as well as the club minutes, aka the "Run Book", as well as the Leeds Scrapbook in compiling his account.

I'm also a bit less certain of Campbell's direct participation than I was a few weeks ago, due now not only to his omission in the Weeks book, and presumably the club records, but now also due to the seeming confusion in the news accounts between the new courses opening at both Essex and Myopia, the papers obvious cribbing of each other's accounts, as well as their seeming lack of first-hand knowledge of the newfangled game and seeming learning curve in terminologies.

[Mike Cirba]

I've also learned that Leeds began designing/building the 18 hole course by 1897 if not earlier with the purchase that year of Dr. Hopkins' land.  At the time of the 1898 US Open, it was expected that the full eighteen would be ready the following year, 1899.

[TEPaul]

Michael:

In your #1195 and #1196 you mention what else you've learned of Myopia's early nine. You also mention you've learned more since you began to read Edward Weeks's Myopia history book, and that's good; I'm glad you are getting the chance to read it. I note that both MacWood and Moriarty have endeavored to largely discount the veracity of that Myopia history book on this thread (I believe one has read parts of that book and scanned some of it on here apparently after copying it from Mike Hurzdan's library. It seems the other has only read what the first scanned on here).

I have been referring to what that history book said about the first Myopia nine for close to a year and a half now but those two have continued to question its veracity. If you feel there is something in that book you can refer to that may change their minds please do it or if you feel you can somehow refer to what I already have referred to from it better than I did to persuade them of its veracity then please do that too.  

And further, I went to Myopia after reading that history book (about five years ago) to try to determine what exactly Weeks was referring to when he wrote various parts of that book that was published in 1975 to confirm why he wrote what he did in various parts of that history book about the original nine.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

One thing I wish Weeks explained better is how he knew the original course included some of Dr. Hopkins land.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
One thing I wish Weeks explained better is how he knew the original course included some of Dr. Hopkins land."



Michael:

Of course you do. Some on here apparently even expect that Weeks should have left us with a laundry list of quotations, foot notes, and some comprehensive bibliography that reflects everything he said in that book. If you want to know why he didn't do that I would be glad to tell you; so would Myopia.

But when a couple of overarching architectural investigators on here who are trying to make a name for themselves and who have never even been to Myopia but who are nevertheless trying to prove Weeks's book wrong and on every detail in it say things like Weeks's book is a work of fiction it does get my attention.

Obviously they will never admit that because it would completely shoot down their ridiculous agenda on here! But that's what they said on here and having had that book for about 4-5 years I went and looked at the club records to see if I could tell because it certainly occured to me that without having something from the club records to refer to in that vein it seems very unlikely that a writer of Weeks's career and reputation would just come up with three member names out of thin air and then write that they routed that course in the spring of 1894. And the same goes for his other remark---eg 'We know that this improvised links was on the grounds of the club and those of our fellow member, Dr. S.A. Hopkins, to the north and east of the club.' Therefore, I endeavored to go to the club and look at their records to see if I could determine what he might have been looking at to say something like that.

At this point, I even wonder if anyone on this thread other than me actually understands on that golf course today where that land of S.A. Hopkins was back then!  Probably not which makes one wonder what they think they are doing on this subject of Myopia's 1894 original nine.  

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