[Mike Cirba]

David,

You are very funny.

The 1893 article says Leeds and friends have been playing since the beginning of golf at TCC.

Since they were the same group of friends and amateur sportsmen like Hunnewell and Appleton who had estate courses prior to TCC, it is highly likely that Leeds was playing before TCC even had a course.

Sorry to puncture yet another attempt at zealous, agenda-driven historical revisionism, this time the erroneous claim that Leeds learned everything he knew at the foot of Campbell.

Oh well..

And what else had been debunked..

Let's see...that Campbell designed Philly CC and Belmont Cricket Club.

That Appleton, Merrill, and Gardner had no prior golf experience, and were merely "Master of Hounds".  They were in fact referred to as local "experts" at the time, given their experience before Myopia even opened.

That Campbell had something to do with the diagonal 4th hole at Myopia, or was involved in the design of the eighteen hole course.

All in all, a worthwhile resurrection of this thread, I'd say.  Thanks for pulling it from the depths and Happy Holidays  to you.

[Mike Cirba]

And for the final coup de grace for those who insist on the unerring accuracy of research through newspaper articles alone, and not through source materials at the clubs themselves, I am please to finally tell everyone who REALLY designed Merion;

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
90% of the information you post on this site comes from newspaper articles. 

[TEPaul]

"That Campbell had something to do with the diagonal 4th hole at Myopia,"


Mike:

That point sort of indirectly bears on why I began to get interested in the entire architectural evolution of Myopia in the first place about 5-6 years ago. By that I mean as far as I can tell at this time if Edward Weeks made any mistake in fact or interpretation in his history book it indirectly relates to that. When he described the original 1894 nine hole iteration of Myopia (even though he did preface his description with 'the actual layout is a matter of speculation') he identified the first hole as today's second which is a fact and he did identify six more holes which in fact were part of the original 1894 nine. However, he alluded to the fact that today's 8th was the second hole. Given other known facts about that 1894 nine that include the fact that some of the holes (logically three holes) were on Dr. S.A. Hopkins's land (documented by club records) and given the fact of where the 1894 nine hole course ended (today's 13th) it would've been virtually impossible for today's 8th hole to have been the 2nd hole of that original 1894 nine. It pretty much had to be the 5th hole of that original 1894 nine.

That is the single item that first got my attention about five years ago. Other than that there are no mistakes of fact I'm aware of in Weeks's book. The fact that he did not mention Willie Campbell is not a mistake of fact. Had he happened to mention that Willie Campbell had nothing whatsoever to do with Myopia's 1894 nine then THAT logically would have been a mistake of fact!

[TEPaul]

"Mike,
90% of the information you post on this site comes from newspaper articles.   "



Perhaps, but that is why the remaining 10% of the information he gets from sources within and connected to source material within and of these clubs is so Gol-danged important to the factually accurate descriptions on here of these golf courses' architectural histories!!

[Tom MacWood]

"Herbert Leeds learned the game while under Campbell's tutelage, in fact the first three years of his golfing life were with Campbell (at TCC and Myopia). Undoubtedly the first golf courses he observed being built were Campbell courses. Remarkably Leeds first design came only few months after he first picked up the club (Kebo Valley 1894), and the other two (Palmetto 1895 & Myopia 1895-98?) came in the next couple of years. It was only after traveling overseas that Leeds began to develop a more sophisticated approach. In fact you can probably seperate Leeds' architectural career into two periods, pre-UK largely influeced by Campbell and post-UK largely influenced by the progressive architects of the UK."

Tom

This is the kind of revisionist nonsense that takes a basic idea and then tries to morph it into something that it's not and never was, and why some of us think you are such an agenda-driven poor analyst.

Leeds won the opening tournament at Myopia two months after Campbell's arrival here and he was already playing at scratch.   He had already designed Kebo Valley and likely Palmetto prior to Campbell's arrival.

I know Campbell could design and open a course in two days, supposedly, but I doubt he made Leeds a scratch player in two months.

Guys like Appleton and Leeds were playing the game of golf on private estates and TCC   before Campbell even arrived, and although I agree he was an important figure, the way you present things is that if not for Campbell, golf would not exist in Boston.

I'd say that the architecture Leeds was most familiar with early on when he began his practice was the architecture of the original amateur architects in this country like Curtis, Hunnewell, et.al.      Unless he learned how to incorporate steeple-chase features from Campbell, which is also possible.

As regards what i learned in the past 24 hours...

I learned that Campbell had no documented influence on Herbert Leeds either architecturally or as a golfer.

I learned that contrary to your contention and that erroneous news article, Leeds did not just start playing in the spring of 1894, but in fact was playing at The Country Club since its inception the year before, and almost certainly began playing on the estate courses of Hunnewell and Appleton and others sometime prior to that.   He did not just become by far the best amateur golfer in Boston due to some Campbell inspired two month miracle, but instead was there from the very beginning of the game in the city.

I also learned knew, but overstated, the exact timing of Leeds laying out Kebo Valley and Palmetto, but your larger contention that he was influenced at that time by Campbell's architecture is really not accurate in any way that I can see.    Almost all of his golf at that time had been played on courses designed by amateur members.

I would also make my response much less personal to you, as I mentioned yesterday.   However, when you make erroneous, sweeping suppositional statements disguised as historical fact such as Leeds learned the game from Campbell after only starting to play himself in spring of 1894 and was directly influenced by Campbell architecturally rest assured that they will be challenged with facts.

Mike
I disagree, it is documented you are just having a hard time accepting it. I was wrong about Leeds first picking up the game in the spring of 1894, but only as a technicality. He did bat the ball around at least two times in 1893, November and December, but obviously its a little hard to play in the winter in Boston, and one wonders about the crudeness of the game they were playing. As Laurence Curtis (who was also out there in the winter) would later remark, the first real golf they had ever seen was the match between Campbell and Davis in the spring of 1894. I believe the author of the article who claimed Leeds only picked up the game that spring was accurate. Willie Campbell introduced real golf to Leeds and the rest in 1894.

In 1895 when Campbell met Willie Park at St. Andrews (NY) he arranged for a match between Brookline and that club. St.Andrews being the oldest golf club in America had an air of superiority, they believed they had been playing the game the longest and they produced the best golfers, and most people agreed. Campbell told them 'he had four men in training he would match against Stoddard [captain of the St.A team] on even terms.' Being the best golfer at TCC I think one can reasonably conclude Leeds was one of those four 'men in training.'

I don't think there is any doubt Campbell was enormous influence on Leeds as a golfer, on golf in general in Boston during those formative years. And I do believe there is evidence Campbell was the primary influence on Leeds as architecture in those early years. His courses would have been the first and quite possibly only course he had seen laid out. Campbell the golf architect dominated the Boston region. Also in the article Joe B. posted it said Campbell was returning to the old Scotch ideal of laying out courses. Where do you think he got that idea? Leeds had never played golf in Scotland.

I don't understand your comment about almost all the golf at that time had to be played over courses designed by amateur members. Weren't the great majority of golf courses in and around Boston designed by professionals?

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

I have yet to see anything at all that even suggests Willie Campbell taught Leeds to play golf or influenced Leeds in his architectural ideas and architectural creations other than from you and to date it is totally undocumented and I expect it will continue to be! 

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
I'm not surprised. Based on your comment yesterday about the contradictions at Palmetto, you are obviously very confused or not paying very close attention, or both.  

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

You're not surprised at WHAT?

What is it that actually documents that Campbell taught Leeds golf or ever influenced Leeds's architecture other than your opinion or suggestion that that was the case?

[Tom MacWood]

It is documented Campbell taught the game every day at Brookline to all the golfers, and it is documented Leeds was there almost every day. I suppose in your mind you see Leeds ignoring the lessons of the poorly educated vagabond, he could learn the game on his own, but I don't that is a reasonable conclusion. In 1895 Campbell said he had four golfers in training he would put up against St. Andrews straight up. Do you believe Leeds would have been considered among the four best golfers at TCC?

If Campbell was not the primary influence on Leeds' early golf architecture, than who or what was?

[TEPaul]

"It is documented Campbell taught the game every day at Brookline to all the golfers, and it is documented Leeds was there almost every day."



Tom MacWood:

Then let's see that documenation. Let's see if it looks like it even suggests that ALL golfers at TCC in 1894 took lessons or had to take lessons from Willie Campbell.

The way you bob and weave around these questions and subjects and try to rationalize them really is completely comical. I've rarely seen anyone try to stretch historical fact and its interpretation quite to the extent you do.

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
The information has already been posted on the thread, but since you seem to be having difficulty following and digesting these things I'll see if I can dig it up or point you to it when I get a chance.

By the way I'm not the only one who sees Campbell being an major influence on Leeds. This is from Bob Labbance's excellent profile on Leeds:

"HC Leeds joined the club and, under the watchful eye of newly installed pro Willie Campbell, went from beginner to scratch player in one summer."

If Campbell was not the primary influence on Leeds' early golf architecture, than who or what was?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Please go back and read the 1893 articles.

They don't say that they played once or twice that winter; they say these men have been playing diligently since golf came to Brookline and that by Nov/Dec of 1893, four months before Campbell's arrival, some of them were already becoming "expert".

Wasn't the course at Brookline laid out in March 1893, over a year before Campbell's arrival??

That is their account Tom...not my interpretation of events.

Also, given that this was the same group of friends who had previously started playing the game on their own estates, it is very likely Leeds was playing with them prior to 1893.

THAT is why by spring of 1894 and Campbell's subsequent arrival tha Leeds was playing as one of two best amateurs in an exhibition match with Campbell, why he already had the amateur record at TCC, and why he was already being asked to design golf courses.

Unlike your "two-month miracle", I don't see a shred of evidence that Campbell influenced Leeds, unless you're referring to ALEX Campbell?

Also, are you absolutely sure that those articles stating that Campbell laid out Myopia didn't confuse it with Essex?  The newspapers certainly confused the two courses in other articles.

Jim Kennedy,

Yes, very true, which is why I'm all too aware of their frailties and inconsistencies.

[TEPaul]

"TEP
The information has already been posted on the thread, but since you seem to be having difficulty following and digesting these things I'll see if I can dig it up or point you to it when I get a chance."



Tom MacWood:

Well, wouldn't that be nice and pretty much a first for you as well?

I very much look forward to "your" documentation that Willie Campbell taught Leeds how to play golf and how he influenced Leeds's architecture. I suspect what you will produce as documentation is nothing more than your own suggestion that that was the case that is somewhere back in this thread or another like it.  

[Phil_the_Author]

David and Mike,

I think that both of you are misunderstanding the use of the term "scratch" as it is used to describe the early golfers in America. I believe that both of you are imparting a great deal of what the term means today, especially in relevance to par. In the early years, the best player at a club was considered the "scratch" player, the one to be measured up against. Just as we view "par" as near sacred today, back then "bogey" was similarly used as a measurement of talent. Quite often the "scratch" player at a club was at or just above "bogey" as a score on average.

Will that change either of your stances on Leeds? No, and it shouldn't, but it might make the understanding of how the players were described become easier to accept.

Tom Macwood, would you say that any of the swing coaches that Tiger Woods has employed taught him to play? Of course, that is an extreme. How about this. Would you say that Tom Strafaci taught me how to play? I took a few lessons from him at Bethpage in the 1970s and he is the only professional I ever took one from. Or would you say that I learned the game from my father who first put a club in my hands when I was 5 and my oldest brother who took me to driving ranges when I was 11-16 or even the professionals I watched on TV and whose swings I tried to emulate?

My point is that I was actually pretty much self-taught, yet by the definitions that you are applying to Campbell and Leeks it must have been Strafaci who taught me when all he actually did was make a vain attempt to refine my swing.

Since Leeks obviously was playing the game at least a year before he met Campbell, he certainly didn’t learn how to play golf from him. So your conclusion stated to Tom Paul, “I suppose in your mind you see Leeds ignoring the lessons of the poorly educated vagabond, he could learn the game on his own, but I don't that is a reasonable conclusion…” is in incorrect on its face. The facts show that he had already both learned how to play golf and was doing so at a fairly decent LOCAL level.

Now, do I think that Leeds benefited from suggestions or actual lessons from Campbell? Yes I do. Just as today when even a talented amateurs seek out advice from the very best of players, it is THAT which can be “reasonably concluded” from the reports of Campbell’s giving lessons where Leeds was playing. Teaching him the game though is simply not correct.

Did Campbell influence Leeds architecturally? In my opinion the jury is still out on that one and his aiding him to become a better player (if he did) has no bearing on that discussion.

Finally, you have taken others to task and refused to accept as either facts or corroboration articles or writings that are not “contemporaneous.” To quote from Bob Labbance as a corroboration of your opinions flies in the face of your prior comments and I believe that Bob would have gotten quite a chuckle out of it….

[TEPaul]

"By the way I'm not the only one who sees Campbell being an major influence on Leeds. This is from Bob Labbance's excellent profile on Leeds:

"HC Leeds joined the club and, under the watchful eye of newly installed pro Willie Campbell, went from beginner to scratch player in one summer.""




Tom MacWood:

Is THAT your documentation that Campbell taught Leeds how to play golf or taught him at all?

[Mike Cirba]

Phil,

Yes, I'm aware how the term "scratch" was used.   Hugh Wilson was a "scratch" player at Belmont in 1898 where he held the club record and the next best player in the club was an 8.   Even with that, Wilson's course record for 18 holes was a 91.

I also think Leeds' amateur record at TCC in 1894 of 48 was quite an achievement considering the PROFESSIONAL record (likely Willie Campbell) at that time was 40.  

At most, Leeds was probably only playing golf for two years by that time yet the next best handicap player in the opening day tournament at Myopia I believe was a 6, shared by Hunnewell, Thomas, and Curtis.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

Please go back and read the 1893 articles.

They don't say that they played once or twice that winter; they say these men have been playing diligently since golf came to Brookline and that by Nov/Dec of 1893, four months before Campbell's arrival, some of them were already becoming "expert".

Wasn't the course at Brookline laid out in March 1893, over a year before Campbell's arrival??

That is their account Tom...not my interpretation of events.

Also, given that this was the same group of friends who had previously started playing the game on their own estates, it is very likely Leeds was playing with them prior to 1893.

THAT is why by spring of 1894 and Campbell's subsequent arrival tha Leeds was playing as one of two best amateurs in an exhibition match with Campbell, why he already had the amateur record at TCC, and why he was already being asked to design golf courses.

Unlike your "two-month miracle", I don't see a shred of evidence that Campbell influenced Leeds, unless you're referring to ALEX Campbell?

Also, are you absolutely sure that those articles stating that Campbell laid out Myopia didn't confuse it with Essex?  The newspapers certainly confused the two courses in other articles.

Mike
Golf had only been played in a 'desultory' manor prior to Campbell coming to Brookline. One of those few early devotees Laurence Curtis said the first true golf they had ever seen was when Campbell faced Davis in the spring of '94. Are you under the impression that Leeds and the rest were not greatly influenced by Campbell?

Regarding your last two paragraphs I won't even comment. Is this your new strategy...throw as much crap against the wall to see if any will stick? You are a disaster.

[Tom MacWood]

Here is a good article on Willie Campbell from 1902 posted a few days ago by Joe B.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Curtis was referring to Campbell's golfing proficiency;  that's what he meant by "real golf"! 

Do you think the term "real golf" referred to the crude nine holes Campbell laid out according to you at Myopia in all of two weeks time??

These guys had been playing golf for over two years before Campbell arrived.   Most weren't very good at it, but a few like Leeds became proficient despite the lack of professional training.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
Are you just trying to be difficult or are you that ignorant regarding the state of golf in 1894? I think you know golf courses were built in short order at that time. How long did it take Leeds to have Kebo Valley up and running in 1894?

He is a little blurb from the Boston Globe 4/15/1894. I'll see if I can post more later...I've got get some Xmas shopping done!

"Golf has 'caught on' and the fashionable representatives of society are making great preparations for future tourneys. At the Country club much earnestness and enthusiasm are displayed among the most prominent members. Instruction in the game is given daily by Prof Campbell. It is surprising that the golf germ, which has flourished in England so long, should only lately reached our shores."

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Let's discuss this more after the holiday as I have some other points to make and I'm sure you do, as well.

Merry Christmas to you and yours.

[TEPaul]

"By the way I'm not the only one who sees Campbell being an major influence on Leeds. This is from Bob Labbance's excellent profile on Leeds:

"HC Leeds joined the club and, under the watchful eye of newly installed pro Willie Campbell, went from beginner to scratch player in one summer.""




Tom MacWood:

One more time!

Is THAT your documentation that Campbell taught Leeds how to play golf or taught him at all?

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
No, I just ran across that today. I reckon Bob looked at the same information I did and came to the same conclusion. Be patient I'll get to it when I have time. In the mean time answer this question I asked several posts back.

If Campbell was not the primary influence on Leeds' early golf architecture, than who or what was?

Also do you think it is fair to say Campbell was best golfer in America when he came over in 1894? Best golf architect? Top teacher?

If not who would have been the best golfer....best golf architect....the top teacher?

[TEPaul]

"TEP
No, I just ran across that today. I reckon Bob looked at the same information I did and came to the same conclusion."


Tom MacWood:

Thanks for clarifying that. Yes, I reckon Bob Labbance did look at the same information you did and came to the same conclusion. And that is very interesting to me and more than a little ironic since the last conversation I had with Bob was about that very specific subject and issue. He and Keven Mendik were speaking right down the road at Waynesborough GC at a GAP event.

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