[DMoriarty]

TEPaul,

Thanks for the insults.   Nice try with the 1898 tournament but results from 1898 have nothing to do with their relative skill levels in what was reportedly Leed's first or second year golfing.  Leeds was obviously much improved by 1898 and given his health Campbell's game may have been on the on the decline.  

In 1894 Campbell was among the handful of golfers considered the best in the World.  And whether he started in 1893 or 1894, Leeds was a beginner by comparison.  One of the better beginners around, but a beginner nonetheless.  He shot something like a 113 the first tournament and Myopia and then three weeks later he shot about the same.  To get some idea of what true scratch might have been, Campbell's early record for 18 (playing the nine twice) was reportedly a 77.    There are 36 strokes between 77 and 113, which is two strokes a hole.   While it is of course an estimate,  calling it 30 strokes gives Leeds a 6 stroke benefit of the the doubt.  But call it 20 if you like, or even go by Leeds best nine hole score at the Country Club and call it 16 strokes.  

Whether Leeds was 30 strokes better or 16 strokes better, the point is that Leeds was nowhere near what we call scratch, despite Mike's claim that he was.  

As for the report of him shooting a 48 at the Country Club, those types of matches, where the best amateurs team up with two professionals and play each other, were common in Scotland, and common over here even though initially the amateurs paled in comparison to the professionals.   Leeds participation in such a match again suggests that he was among the best amateurs, but then then we already knew this, didn't we?

His 48 sounds like a terrific score for a beginner and well below the norm, but while I am not sure how much weight we should give one nine-hole score, I am absolutely certain that even by this number, we get eight strokes per nine holes or 16 strokes for 18 holes, and that would be assuming two nines of 48 in the same 18 hole round!

Anecdotally, I had a friend (a good tennis player like Leeds) who shot about a 47 on the back nine at Rustic Canyon from the blue tees after having played golf less than a dozen times.  He had never come close to breaking fifty on a side before, and as I recall he did not break 100 that day.  Much to his frustration, his scores in subsequent rounds immediately returned to their regular 110-125 range  No doubt though if he had stuck with it he could have been good, or at least much better than me.  

Obviously Leeds was quite talented, but whether he started in 1893 or 1894, we was a beginner.  He was no scratch.  At least not in the way we understand the term.  Not even close.  

As I have said many times before, Mike, if you have to pull things like calling Leeds "scratch" or calling Appleton, Merrill, and Burnham experts, or being impressed that he was eight strokes behind a record on a nine-hole course, then perhaps you should reconsider your argument.  


Just what is your point Mike?   Do you really think Leeds was a scratch golfer? As we understand the term?  Would you really have wagered on him versus Willie Campbell with no strokes?    

[JC Jones]

Is it possible that Leeds could have been to Aiken or anywhere else in the world without the knowledge of a newspaper reporter?  Is it possible that a newspaper article reflects the reporter's knowledge of that particular visit of Leeds and doesn't reflect each visit of Leeds?  I don't think it is logical to assume that the first time Leeds was in Aiken was the first time it was mentioned in the newspaper.  Plenty of things happen without reporters gaining knowledge of them.

I care not what the Golf Guide says, the Palmetto Club History says they were founded in 1892.  That is probably based off of actual records, not whatever the Golf Guide believes (and it has been pointed out the Golf Guide was wrong many times).  I will submit that it is possible for club histories to be either inaccurate or incomplete, with respect to the founding of the club, however, that is one fact that they would have the highest potential for accuracy on and it would take a board of directors meeting minutes or something to that extent to show the club history was wrong, not the Golf Guide.

[TEPaul]

"Is it possible that a newspaper article reflects the reporter's knowledge of that particular visit of Leeds and doesn't reflect each visit of Leeds?  I don't think it is logical to assume that the first time Leeds was in Aiken was the first time it was mentioned in the newspaper.  Plenty of things happen without reporters gaining knowledge of them."


JC:

Of course it possible. More than that it's probably likely. Leeds was basically famously known to hate the press, and the stories are plentiful that if he found one hanging around Myopia he would have him thrown out. Boston's sports reporter A. Linde Fowler was apparently the only one he remotely trusted.

In Tom MacWood's mind essentially nothing could or can actually happen unless and until it was reported in the newspapers. Myopia's Appleton, Merrill and Gardner routed the original nine holes before Campbell arrived in America only to read in the newspapers a few month later that Campbell did it and therefore what they'd done about two months previous could not have possibly happened because it was not reported in the newspapers!

At least that's the way Tom MacWood's mind works! And he has the gall to call Mike Cirba either and idiot or fool with history??

This really is ludicrous and I sit here reading some of this stuff from MacWood just laughing my ass off.



And then Moriarty weighs in claiming Leeds was not a scratch as we know a scratch today!! Well, ahh, DUUUHHH! Leeds was playing golf on bascially a cow pasture in South Hamilton in 1894 a 116 years BEFORE us today!!  

Just amazing what these two are saying on here; it gets funnier as time goes on and they get more and more stringent and insulting with everyone else as time goes by. This is what I wanted to see happen with these two and I want to see more of it; they need to be put in some dark corner on stools facing the wall with Dunce Caps on and made to stay there for all time to come. And we need to be over here laughing at them.

[Mike Cirba]

A bit about Palmetto...

New York Times, March 8th, 1896

[DMoriarty]

TEPaul,

The conditions are irrelevant.   Leeds was not anywhere near what we thing of as "scratch" because he was no where near as good as the best golfers.

___________________________________

According to the Boston Globe:

Around May 18th at the Country Club, Willie Campbell shot an 84 (40, 44) in a match against Willie Davis.  Campbell won at four up.  
In a tournament the next day at the Country Club, Leeds shot a 109 (54, 55) in a tournament.   Curtis shot a 110 (52,58) in the same tournament.  
On June 18, 1894, Leeds shot a 112 at Myopia's opening tournament.  
Leeds shot a 113 at Myopia on July 4th.   Appleton and Thomas were next with scores of 124 and 127.

As would be expected of a beginner, Leeds (and many of the other golfers) by the end of the season.  In a tournament around October 27, he shot an even 100.  

[TEPaul]

MichaelC:

I noticed on a reread that in your last few posts you told Tom MacWood you respected his work?

Why in the world would you say such a thing, much less think it?

Maybe MacWood is right that you must be either an idiot or a fool.  

[Mike Cirba]

"Beginner" Leeds was evidently a fast study as seen in this April 1896 account;

[DMoriarty]

Mike Cirba, last I checked 1896 is two years after 1894, so I fail to see your point.    But yes, the "beginner" Leeds was obviously talented and a quick study, which is why he could give a good showing in the Open by 1898 on his home course.   

In actual 18 hole tournaments, one each in May, June, and July of 1894, he shot a 109, 112, and 113, respectively. 

You must have missed my questions above.

What is your point?   Are you seriously claiming that Leeds a "scratch" golfer by Spring of 1894?  Would anyone have been on him against Campbell without Leeds getting between a stroke and two strokes a hole?  

You have a lot of nerve getting on Tom MacWood for "personal" posts given some of your recent posts, and given the garbage your mentor has been spewing of late. 

[JC Jones]

An interesting note in one of the articles posted by Mike Cirba, the Highland Park Hotel that is mentioned later had its own golf course, rumored to be laid out by the Assistant Pro of Shinnecock Hills somewhere around 1912.  It is now the beloved Aiken Golf Club.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
The conditions are irrelevant."



Oh right, silly me, of course, the conditions of a golf course in 1894 that was nothing more than a cow pasture a few days before (according to the chronology of you two jokers) has nothing to do with scoring! Jeeesus! Can this get any worse or any more comical??   

[DMoriarty]

That you have to drop and ignore the explanatory sentence makes it both worse and more comical.

In May of 1894 at the Country Club, Campbell shot an 84 against Davis of Newport.   The next day in a tournament on the same course, Leeds had the low score with  a 109.   Did something happen to the course overnight which made it 25 strokes harder for Leeds?


 It speaks volumes about your credibility that you two would even try to place Leeds on par with Campbell as a player in the spring of 1894.

[TEPaul]

Placing Leeds on a par with Campbell as a golfer in 1894 is certainly a subject but not very relevent to this subject. Part of the point of this subject is whether or not Campbell taught Leeds golf and influenced him in his ideas on architecture.

It may seem like a neat and natural logical assumption to Tom MacWood to conclude and claim that but there is no evidence of it I've ever seen. It is pretty much all speculation as far as I can see.

But the larger point in this thread entitled "Willie Campbell & Myopia" is what is it about Myopia the famous golf course and architecture that Willie Campbell actually had to do with considering it is actually the eighteen hole golf course that became famous and still is and by the time that was first opened for play around 1900 and then significantly improved through the next 18-25 years Willie Campbell was dead and long gone. It probably is necessary and beneficial to do a hole by hole architectural evolution report and then it would become really obvious, perhaps never to you two, but certainly to the rest.

[DMoriarty]

Strange how it became unimportant only after even you must have realized the absurdity of the position.    Mind explaining this to your protege?

[TEPaul]

What is really, really strange, David Moriarty, is what is important to you on this subject or any other on this website, at least with a couple of contributors. You occasionally throw a ridiculous veneer over your participation on here on subjects like Myopia and Merion by calling it a search for the truth. Apparently to you the Truth is completely synonymous with endless irrelevance and constant arguing.

[Tom MacWood]

Herbert Leeds learned the game while under Campbell's tutelage, in fact the first three years of his golfing life were with Campbell (at TCC and Myopia). Undoubtedly the first golf courses he observed being built were Campbell courses. Remarkably Leeds first design came only few months after he first picked up the club (Kebo Valley 1894), and the other two (Palmetto 1895 & Myopia 1895-98?) came in the next couple of years. It was only after traveling overseas that Leeds began to develop a more sophisticated approach. In fact you can probably seperate Leeds' architectural career into two periods, pre-UK largely influeced by Campbell and post-UK largely influenced by the progressive architects of the UK.


Tom

This is the kind of revisionist nonsense that takes a basic idea and then tries to morph it into something that it's not and never was, and why some of us think you are such an agenda-driven poor analyst.

Leeds won the opening tournament at Myopia two months after Campbell's arrival here and he was already playing at scratch.   He had already designed Kebo Valley and likely Palmetto prior to Campbell's arrival.

I know Campbell could design and open a course in two days, supposedly, but I doubt he made Leeds a scratch player in two months.

Guys like Appleton and Leeds were playing the game of golf on private estates and TCC   before Campbell even arrived, and although I agree he was an important figure, the way you present things is that if not for Campbell, golf would not exist in Boston.

I'd say that the architecture Leeds was most familiar with early on when he began his practice was the architecture of the original amateur architects in this country like Curtis, Hunnewell, et.al.      Unless he learned how to incorporate steeple-chase features from Campbell, which is also possible.

Mike
Based on what you've learned in the last 24-hours how would you change these posts?

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

Based on what you've learned in the last ten years on this website how would you change any of your posts?

[Tom MacWood]

Is it possible that Leeds could have been to Aiken or anywhere else in the world without the knowledge of a newspaper reporter?  Is it possible that a newspaper article reflects the reporter's knowledge of that particular visit of Leeds and doesn't reflect each visit of Leeds?  I don't think it is logical to assume that the first time Leeds was in Aiken was the first time it was mentioned in the newspaper.  Plenty of things happen without reporters gaining knowledge of them.

I care not what the Golf Guide says, the Palmetto Club History says they were founded in 1892.  That is probably based off of actual records, not whatever the Golf Guide believes (and it has been pointed out the Golf Guide was wrong many times).  I will submit that it is possible for club histories to be either inaccurate or incomplete, with respect to the founding of the club, however, that is one fact that they would have the highest potential for accuracy on and it would take a board of directors meeting minutes or something to that extent to show the club history was wrong, not the Golf Guide.

JC
Over the years I found that information found in Cornish & Whitten, club histories, and on club websites is not always accurate, sometimes it is, but often it is not. That is why I try to confirm everything, and newspapers, magazines and golf guides are very good sources, and the more sources the better. In the case of Palmetto what is written on the website (which I understand is taken from the club history) is especially confusing. This is what it says about Leeds involvement:

"After the first four holes were constructed in 1892, Herbert Leeds, who also built Myopia Hunt Club in Boston, laid out the remainder of the initial nine holes.  Palmetto was expanded in 1895 to 18 holes with the completion of the second nine holes that had been designed by Leeds and James Mackrell, Palmetto’s first golf professional."

Could you translate that for me? Based on this can you tell me what Leeds did and when he did it?

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacWood:

Based on what you've learned in the last ten years on this website how would you change any of your posts?

I think I once made a post about your interest in getting at the truth.

[JC Jones]

Tom,

My point was to refute the Golf Guide as a source that would trump the club's listed date of founding.  The club says it was founded in 1892 with 4 holes being laid out (this comes from a club history document that I offered to send to you yesterday but you did not respond).  The course was later expanded to 9 and then 18 holes (the 4th of the original 4 holes is now the practice range) sometime between 1892 and 1895 with the involvement of Leeds and Mackrell.  I don't know what Leeds did or when exactly he did it.

I think it is likely that the club was founded prior to the Golf Guide finding out about it.  I don't disagree with you that newspaper articles and other such things are valuable sources for learning the history.  I don't, however, buy into the notion that nothing happened unless it was reported in the newspaper.  Perhaps the reporters in Aiken didn't care much at all about the formation of the Palmetto Club until it hosted a tournament, then there was a newsworthy event to report.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

Good morning. 

I realize Ron is wrong sometimes....Ron has stated that since the book was published he has found errors.  Back in those days, before the internet, if he found a source, he used it, because it was hard to find multiple sources.

That said, what percentage of that book do you believe is wrong?  0.5%? 5%? 50%?  I realize its just a guess.  And trust me, I won't quibble with your guess, even though I suspect yours would be higher than mine.  And I say that only because I know that one of the real "problems" in these debates is that you simply want to know in more detail than either the club histories or even CW cared to cover, which is not really a problem. 

No doubt if people like you keep digging, there will be discoveries of inaccuracies, and as time goes on, its possible that we can correct them.  On the other hand, I suspect that 80% of club histories are probably accurate, and even those 20% that have inacurracies probably mostly have minor ones.

Just curious as to what your research indicates is the accurate to innaccurate ratio is?

[Mike Cirba]

More on Belmont from 1898 to prove attribution was not Willie Campbell, but a troika of members that included Dr. H. Toulmin of Merion Committee fame;

[TEPaul]

"In the case of Palmetto what is written on the website (which I understand is taken from the club history) is especially confusing. This is what it says about Leeds involvement:

"After the first four holes were constructed in 1892, Herbert Leeds, who also built Myopia Hunt Club in Boston, laid out the remainder of the initial nine holes.  Palmetto was expanded in 1895 to 18 holes with the completion of the second nine holes that had been designed by Leeds and James Mackrell, Palmetto’s first golf professional."

Could you translate that for me? Based on this can you tell me what Leeds did and when he did it? "




Sure Tom, I'd be glad to translate that for you.


1. At a point between 1892 and probably about 1894 or even 1895 five holes were adding to four existing holes by Leeds and Mackrell to make a nine hole course.

2. At a point in time during the year 1895 Leeds and Mackrell designed nine more holes that were added to the the existing nine holes to make an 18 hole golf course.


Do you have some problem understanding that? It basically lays out a "timespan" (timespan; the time between one point in time and another point in time) when five holes were designed by Leeds and Mackrell and added to four existing holes, and it gives a date (Date; a point in time such as a day, week, month, year etc) in this case 1895 during which Leeds and Mackrell designed nine more holes and added them to the existing nine to make up an 18 hole golf course at Palmetto.

[Mike Cirba]

On a related note,

In 1910-11 TCC at Brookline was working on their golf course, and the primary architect was H.G. Windeler, another of the amateur members who was part of the whole amateur architectural craze around that time that included Leeds, Wilson, Crump, Macdonald et.al.

Windeler was assisted partly by professional Alex (not Willie) Campbell in his work, which transformed the course that was originally designed to incorporate polo walls, hedgerows, etc., into the golf course it became by the 1913 US Open, which is much like today's Squirrel & Clyde nines.

The following pages indicate some of the thinking of the time.

In particular, note the reference on the second page that talks about the reputations of the golf courses built by the earliest Scottish pros, and the reason most prominent clubs at that time were opting to take matters into their own hands;

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

My point was to refute the Golf Guide as a source that would trump the club's listed date of founding.  The club says it was founded in 1892 with 4 holes being laid out (this comes from a club history document that I offered to send to you yesterday but you did not respond).  The course was later expanded to 9 and then 18 holes (the 4th of the original 4 holes is now the practice range) sometime between 1892 and 1895 with the involvement of Leeds and Mackrell.  I don't know what Leeds did or when exactly he did it.

I think it is likely that the club was founded prior to the Golf Guide finding out about it.  I don't disagree with you that newspaper articles and other such things are valuable sources for learning the history.  I don't, however, buy into the notion that nothing happened unless it was reported in the newspaper.  Perhaps the reporters in Aiken didn't care much at all about the formation of the Palmetto Club until it hosted a tournament, then there was a newsworthy event to report.

JC
This is from The Golfer magazine April 1896:

"The Palmetto Golf Club is an allied member of the USGA. It was established in January 1895, and the members are mostly Northern people, who spend the winter in Aiken. The links have been laid out with great care and are kept in fine condition. The Green Committee is composed of Thomas H. Hitchcock, Jr of the Meadow Brook Club, Herbert C. Leeds of the Brookline Country Club and S. Parkman Shaw of the Lenox GC. The links is composed of nine holes...."

It then goes on to describe the course. If you combine this with the fact there is no mention of the Palmetto Club in any publication prior to 1895, plus the 1899, 1900, 1901 golf guides, and the 1895 article in the Boston Advertiser, and the 1896 article in the NY Times, and the 1896 article in the NY Sun, and you are left with a strong impression the website is wrong, not only about the date the club was founded, but also when it went from nine holes to eighteen. Would you agree?

[TEPaul]

"It then goes on to describe the course. If you combine this with the fact there is no mention of the Palmetto Club in any publication prior to 1895, plus the 1899, 1900, 1901 golf guides, and the 1895 article in the Boston Advertiser, and the 1896 article in the NY Times, and the 1896 article in the NY Sun, and you are left with a strong impression the website is wrong, not only about the date the club was founded, but also when it went from nine holes to eighteen. Would you agree?"



Absolutely not.

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