[Niall C]

Niall:

Regarding your #1010, much of what you said makes a lot of sense and it's logical. However, what I would encourage you and everyone else on here to do is to really appreciate just how different things were in America in the early to mid 1890s concerning golf over here than they were just a mere ten or fifteen years later. To quantify it, in the early 1890s in Boston there probably weren't more than a score or so people in and around Boston who had the vaguest idea about golf, what it was, how to play it, but ten and fifteen years later there were literally thousands!!

THAT is an historical reality we can just never forget or fail to appreciate in the history and evolution of golf and golf architecture in Boston, iin America and particularly the United States of America, particularly in the early to mid 1890s.

For someone like Tom MacWood to maintain, as he has on here, that a man like Campbell in the early to mid 1890s when he first arrived here was some big celebrated world famous golfer or celebrity over here is frankly just bullshit or a total lack of thought and historical perspective on MacWood's part.

At first Campbell may've been something of a curiosity to those hundred or so Bostonians who first saw him play golf or in those early exhibitions with Davis and Park Jr (which were brilliant promotionally, by the way), but to label him some celebrated hero or celebrated golfer that everyone was waiting for over here back then by more than about a handful or a score at most at first is just ridiculous and completely inaccurate historically.

But that's MacWood----he's a good researcher of names and dates and newspaper articles (that are "independent" of the actually internally administrations of those early clubs) and such but a very poor analyst of the correct context of history itself; he falls into that trap on here all the time apparently in some on-going attempt to over promote the reality and reputation of some of those early immigrant golf professional back then such as Willie Campbell into Boston in 1894.

Tom

I can very well believe the boom in golf in the US in the 1890's that you describe for the very reason that it was happening in Scotland and the rest of the UK as well. Maybe from not as low a base but there was an exponential boom in the numbers of golfers, new courses and clubs created from about 1890 onwards and Willie Campbell was right there at the ground floor, laying out courses and playing big money matches. If you think that prior to his departure for the US, that the number of courses world wide (ie. mainly in the UK) multiplied by several times and that Campbell had a hand in laying out a fair proportion, you've got to think that along with Old Tom, Willie Park Jnr, Willie Fernie etc that he was as experienced as anyone else in golf course design/construction.

Undoubtedly what he did was probably very crude by todays standards and maybe even by the standards of five to ten years later but then golf course design standards would have been on an exponential curve as well. Maybe the handful of golf enthuisiasts in Boston didn't know Campbell but I suspect that within their number a fair few were ex-pats or had picked up the golfing bug on a visit to Scotland. The chances are that they would have been vaguely aware of his record before taking him on I would have thought.

Niall 

[Tom MacWood]

I think it is pretty clear Campbell was a key figure in the early development of golf architecture in America, just based on the important designs he was resposible for, what may be less obvious however is the impact he had on other architects.

Herbert Leeds learned the game while under Campbell's tutelage, in fact the first three years of his golfing life were with Campbell (at TCC and Myopia). Undoubtedly the first golf courses he observed being built were Campbell courses. Remarkably Leeds first design came only few months after he first picked up the club (Kebo Valley 1894), and the other two (Palmetto 1895 & Myopia 1895-98?) came in the next couple of years. It was only after traveling overseas that Leeds began to develop a more sophisticated approach. In fact you can probably seperate Leeds' architectural career into two periods, pre-UK largely influeced by Campbell and post-UK largely influenced by the progressive architects of the UK.

Arthur Lockwood was mentored by Campbell on the Boston GC at Franklin Park. Campbell caddied for Lockwood at the 1900 US Am at GCGC when he lost a close match to Travis in the semi-finals. Like Leeds I believe Lockwood renmained an amateur his whole life. And although I would not say he was a prolific golf architect he was more active than most realize.

Campbell's influence on Alex Findlay is a little less obvious. Findlay came to Boston in 1897, and also played his golf at Campbell's Franklin Park course. He first played golf as a boy at Montrose but reportedly had not played the game in ten years at thtime he came to Boston. He eventually hooked on with sporting goods company that sold golf equipment. His golf architecture career began in the late 1890s at a time when Campbell was dominating that field. He and Donald Ross probably benifited the most from Campbell's death.

Ross in another one where the influence is less obvious. He came over in the late 1890s at the time Campbell was dominating course design. He was the pro at a course Campbell designed, beyond that its hard to say specifically how he was influenced although again he did help fill void when Campbell died. Herbert Windiler is another person who may have been influenced. He came to TCC in 1894 around the time Campbell came to that club. He was responsible for redesigning TCC in the late 1890s through the early 1910s. He was an Englishman who retained his residence in London throughout his life so one would assume his architectural influences may have been largely British. Robert White may be another one who was influenced.

[TEPaul]

It is of course a very good question and perhaps an important one of whether Campbell taught Leeds to play golf or had some influence on Leeds's golf architecture but some believe Leeds was a self taught golfer and I have never seen any evidence that Leeds's architecture was influenced by Campbell.

I think we with these kinds of historical interests must be careful to just not assume that simply because these people were in the same place at the same time that one taught the other golf or had some influence on another. I mean one can certainly speculate about those things but I wouldn't want to begin to conclude it with someone such as Herbert Leeds without some evidence of it from that time and place.

As far as when, and for what and how often Leeds may've been abroad, as far as I'm concerned that is still an open question. He was a top competitive sailor after all, and the America Cup very well may've been something he was involved in. I can't remember where or when I heard it but I seem to recall that at one point Leeds actually sailed around the world.

[Mike Cirba]

Herbert Leeds learned the game while under Campbell's tutelage, in fact the first three years of his golfing life were with Campbell (at TCC and Myopia). Undoubtedly the first golf courses he observed being built were Campbell courses. Remarkably Leeds first design came only few months after he first picked up the club (Kebo Valley 1894), and the other two (Palmetto 1895 & Myopia 1895-98?) came in the next couple of years. It was only after traveling overseas that Leeds began to develop a more sophisticated approach. In fact you can probably seperate Leeds' architectural career into two periods, pre-UK largely influeced by Campbell and post-UK largely influenced by the progressive architects of the UK.


Tom

This is the kind of revisionist nonsense that takes a basic idea and then tries to morph it into something that it's not and never was, and why some of us think you are such an agenda-driven poor analyst.

Leeds won the opening tournament at Myopia two months after Campbell's arrival here and he was already playing at scratch.   He had already designed Kebo Valley and likely Palmetto prior to Campbell's arrival.

I know Campbell could design and open a course in two days, supposedly, but I doubt he made Leeds a scratch player in two months.

Guys like Appleton and Leeds were playing the game of golf on private estates and TCC   before Campbell even arrived, and although I agree he was an important figure, the way you present things is that if not for Campbell, golf would not exist in Boston.

I'd say that the architecture Leeds was most familiar with early on when he began his practice was the architecture of the original amateur architects in this country like Curtis, Hunnewell, et.al.      Unless he learned how to incorporate steeple-chase features from Campbell, which is also possible.

[TEPaul]

Mike:

The fact is there just might not be all that much known (at least by us or even Myopia, at this point) of some of the activities and goings-on in Herbert Leeds's life, particularly early on. But one thing surely is known about him and that is he was an intensely private man in many ways---eg he basically hated publicity and very much valued privacy, both for himself and for his club, Myopia. There is a stash of Leeds family archives in a Boston University and they may help reveal something about him and his family. The next best source I'm aware of are the recollections of one T. Dennie Boardman who was Leeds's nephew or perhaps even great nephew. Boardman and Knowles were the best sources of info on golf at Myopia in the middle years, and obviously Boardman had a close family connection to Leeds. I actually remember T. Dennie Boardman (everyone actually called him "T. Dennie")----my father referred to him as his "Calabash Cousin" because in the end of his life, Boardman, who was older than my father married I think a Biddle or Drexel cousin of ours who was actualy younger than me. And then there was Knowles, another great friend of my father who was one helluva golfer (I think even some Walker Cups) and also a unique character particularly in the fact that he was the only self-professed cheat I have ever heard of. One great story about him is he once said he gained about 120 yards one year just marking his golf ball.  

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
Leeds did win the first tournament at Myopia, beyond that everything else you have written is wrong. You should probably get your facts straight before thowing out the righteous indignation card.

[DMoriarty]

Mike

Do you really think Leeds was a scratch golfer by June of 1894?   I am starting to understand why you are so impressed with those other four being called "expert golfers."  You apparently haven't yet caught on to the fact that all these guys were all beginners.  

You have claimed that the nine-hole course at Myopia was just over 2030 yards.   On opening day Leeds reportedly made eighteen holes in 113 strokes, and his score was about the same in the next tournament.

"Scratch" simply meant he was the best among those in the handicapped tournament, and was therefore giving strokes to everyone in the field.   But to say the field was weak is an understatement.  They were all varying degrees of beginners, including Leeds.  Hopkins, who took second in the handicapped tournament, had never touched a club before and was receiving 36 strokes from Leeds.

Had Campbell been in the field,  a comparison of Campbell and Leeds would have been equally as laughable, with Campbell "scratch" by around 30 strokes.

So it is absolutely ridiculous for you to portray Leeds as "scratch" in the sense we think of it.  Either you know very little about what was happening at the time, or you are being extremely disingenuous.  

[TEPaul]

"Had Campbell been in the field,  a comparison of Campbell and Leeds would have been equally as laughable, with Campbell "scratch" by around 30 strokes."



Well, THAT, sure as shootin' is SPECULATION in about its most blatant form!! Speculation----the very thing this duo of Moriarty and MacWood constantly hammer others on here for engaging in but for some strange reason never seem to recognize it or admit it when they engage in it themselves!

Oh sure, we have all grown used to and completely bored with Moriarty's automatic retort to being accused of that----eg "YOU'VE MISREPRESENTED WHAT I SAID."

Bullshit! We can all read and that ridiculous retort has become synonymous with hypocrisy, frankly.

The fact is Campbell did not play in either of those June 1894 tournaments at Myopia against Leeds or anyone else so there is no way in Heaven or Hell anyone could predict how he would've done. The course was obviously pretty rough and unpredictable at that early time just after opening which might go a long way to the unusually high scores including the winning score.

But did Leeds and Campbell ever actually tee it up and compete against one another in a serious tournament?

They sure did---in the 1898 US Open at a course both of them obviously knew well-----MYOPIA!!!

So what happened?

Leeds completely hammered Campbell, which must either mean Leeds had a very fast and sharp learning and performance curve or Campbell just may not have been quite as good as some on here have been trying to make him out to be. I'll check later but I think Leeds may've finished as the low amateur in that 1898 US Open.  

Why do I feel one or both of these GOLFCLUBALTAS.com historical revisionists are going to claim Campbell must have been dying of cancer in 1898 or some such to get hammered by Leeds like that since there seems to be virtually no end to the rationalizations they come up with to attempt to defend some of the ridiculous things they say and claim on here?  


NB:
A historically supportable and documentable FACT regarding that US Open and Campbell because it was reported in a CONTEMPORANEOUS NEWSPAPER ARTICLE ("Oh My God, history just doesn't get better "verifiable evidence" than a contemporaneous newspaper article, does it!!??-------the contemporaneous newspaper article speculated that Campbell may not have been on his game because he had been TEACHING too much golf. I wonder why they didn't mention he had been doing too much golf course architecture too?? Would that mean since they didn't report THAT or mention it, that with MacWood's reasoning and logic that Campbell never practiced golf course architecture at ALL??  


All this is of course vaguely humorous but it is also a very good dose of their own medicine!

[Jeff_Brauer]

TePaul,

The numbers don't actually lie.  Leeds shot a 114 or so in 1894.  Campbell probably was better at that time.

However, in addition to Myopia not keeping Campbell's design around more than a year, and with TMac's assumption that Willie taught Leeds everything he knew about golf, it seems they are throwing WC as a teacher under the bus, too.  Funny, but there are a lot ways to interpret all that happened, and none of it ever really seems consistent.

I will say this, TMac did unearth some stuff showing that Campbell appeared to do better in big money matches against the same guys who beat him in tournaments.  If so, then it should be no surprise Leeds beat him, but history doesn't record if Willie then beat Leeds later in the year in a private match.

I have read the previous posts, and I tend to agree with Mike Cirba about the impact of Willie Campbell on architecture and golf in general.  No doubt it was substantial and deserves to be highlighted by TMac, but at the same time, it was so short that I wonder if its as extensive as he portrays.

In short, with him gone, and so many other similar Scot professionals coming over in droves, I don't think we can assume many went back to the well to learn from Willie because there were so many others who could potentially influence the  work.  We do know not all had the chance because of his tragic death. 

At the same time, TMac listed about 20 courses he designed, with some of distinction, but we know there about 900 courses in America, most rudimentary.  So, Willie could have only designed about 2-3% of America's early courses, with some of them signifigant, but overall I would think low numbers and short duration limited his impact and also helped to releate him to the second tier in history.

I am glad to know more about him from TMac's research and these threads, though.

[Joe Bausch]

Here is a story of a match including Leeds and Campbell held at Brookline on May 17, 1894:

[Mike Cirba]

Thanks, Joe..

So even in May 1894, supposed "beginner" HC Leeds had shot within 8 shots of the professional record for the course, and was good enough to be paired in matches with/against Campbell in better-ball play?

Wow...that Campbell sure must have taught Leeds quickly!!   A month after getting off the boat yet?  

Amazing...perhaps there is something to this attempted posthumous deification of Willie Campbell!!     

[Tom MacWood]

Tom

This is the kind of revisionist nonsense that takes a basic idea and then tries to morph it into something that it's not and never was, and why some of us think you are such an agenda-driven poor analyst.

Leeds won the opening tournament at Myopia two months after Campbell's arrival here and he was already playing at scratch.   He had already designed Kebo Valley and likely Palmetto prior to Campbell's arrival.

I know Campbell could design and open a course in two days, supposedly, but I doubt he made Leeds a scratch player in two months.

Guys like Appleton and Leeds were playing the game of golf on private estates and TCC   before Campbell even arrived, and although I agree he was an important figure, the way you present things is that if not for Campbell, golf would not exist in Boston.

I'd say that the architecture Leeds was most familiar with early on when he began his practice was the architecture of the original amateur architects in this country like Curtis, Hunnewell, et.al.      Unless he learned how to incorporate steeple-chase features from Campbell, which is also possible.

Mike
Beyond the part about Leeds winning the first tournament at Myopia everything you wrote is wrong and/or unsupportable. You are either a fool or an idiot. Which is it?

[Mike Cirba]

"After the first four holes were constructed in 1892, Herbert Leeds, who also built Myopia Hunt Club in Boston, laid out the remainder of the initial nine holes.  Palmetto was expanded in 1895 to 18 holes with the completion of the second nine holes that had been designed by Leeds and James Mackrell, Palmetto’s first golf professional." - Palmetto Club history

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

Leeds designed Kebo within 2 months after Campbell's arrival, and it seems Palmetto may have been before then, at least the addition of a number of holes.

Are you suggesting that Campbell, while trying to move to a new country, giving daily lessons, etc., etc., also taught Leeds everything he knew about architecture in that time as well as made him the best player in Boston....all in a few weeks??

That is simply ludicrous, Tom, as is this idea that Leeds barely played golf before Campbell got to him.   Thankfully, Joe's article paints a more realistic picture.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
So what year did Leeds expand Palmetto? Your blurb from the club website doesn't say.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacWood,

Leeds designed Kebo within 2 months after Campbell's arrival, and it seems Palmetto may have been before then, at least the addition of a number of holes.

Are you suggesting that Campbell, while trying to move to a new country, giving daily lessons, etc., etc., also taught Leeds everything he knew about architecture in that time as well as made him the best player in Boston....all in a few weeks??

That is simply ludicrous, Tom, as is this idea that Leeds barely played golf before Campbell got to him.   Thankfully, Joe's article paints a more realistic picture.

You are either a fool or an idiot because you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
The Palmetto GC was not founded until 1895 (1899, 1900, 1901 Golf Guides). The first tournament of what became an annual event at Palmetto was held in March 1896 as reported in the NY times and the NY Sun. The golf course was nine holes (NY Times) and was laid out by Leeds (NY Sun). The first mention of Leeds coming to Aiken is 1/25/1895 in the Boston Daily Advertiser: "In a few days Aiken will offer golf players some very fine links. Such players as Thomas Hitchcock, Jr., Bud Appleton and HC Leeds are to be on hand."

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacWood,

Leeds designed Kebo within 2 months after Campbell's arrival, and it seems Palmetto may have been before then, at least the addition of a number of holes.

Are you suggesting that Campbell, while trying to move to a new country, giving daily lessons, etc., etc., also taught Leeds everything he knew about architecture in that time as well as made him the best player in Boston....all in a few weeks??

That is simply ludicrous, Tom, as is this idea that Leeds barely played golf before Campbell got to him.   Thankfully, Joe's article paints a more realistic picture.

Mike
What are you talking about? This mourning you said, "He had already designed Kebo Valley and likely Palmetto prior to Campbell's arrival." Now you are saying Kebo Valley was designed two months after Campbell arrived. Are you confused?

Leeds did not take up the game until the spring of 1894. The first mention of Appleton playing the game is also 1894. There is no record of Appleton and Leeds playing the game on private estates or TCC prior to 1894. Leeds laid out a 9-hole golf course at Kebo in 1894 and a 9-hole golf course at Palmetto in 1895.

The next time before you get on your soap box please have your facts straight. You are a disaster when it comes to history.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

So, Leeds never picked up a club until spring of 1894 (because you've found no newspaper articles, I presume?) yet was asked to design Kebo Valley by June of that year, and was playing in matches against Willie Campbell, and had the amateur record at TCC in May of that same year?!!??

Who is a disaster as a historian again?  

Sheesh Tom...I respect your work...I really, really do...and try not to get personal about this but do you hear yourself?

[Tom MacWood]

Boston Daily Advertiser 5/18/1894

"DO YOU PLAY GOLF? * Country Club Men Are Learning It * Willie Campbell, a Braw Highlander, and His 'Tee' Caddies---Herbert Leeds the club champion---How the Links are Laid Out---The Ladies Much interested"

"Herbert Leeds, the old Harvard man, who was famous on the diamond and with the sculls, is the crack golfer. He never tried the game till this spring, and he has rounded the nine holes with 48 strokes. This is the club record and was the visitors' as well till Tuesday, when a fair haired young Englishman, GH Windeler of London, who is over here visiting, took out his clubs in the morning and did it with 46 strokes, thereby winning the admiration of all. That Mr. Leeds' work is first class will be better understood when it is known that the professional record is 40 strokes. Arrayed in his knickerbockers, with heavy hobnailed shoes, Leeds is a constant figure on the links.

HH Fay ranks second and the list of golfers includes Lawrence Curtis, Francis Higgington, Bernard Thayer, Dr. Appleton, Mr. Brewster, Mr. Burnham, Messrs. Thomas and Merrill and scores of others, but the gentlemen names are the elite as scoring is concerned."

[Tom MacWood]

Boston Globe 6/17/1894"

"Mr. Herbert Leeds, who went to Bar Harbor last week with his mother, has returned to town, but will go back later. While there he looked over the ground at Kebo Valley, and arranged for the new game, golf, which promises to be the favorite game of the season there. The facilities for playing it at Kebo are very good. Mr. Leeds is quite an ethuiast over the sport, as , too, is his nephew, Mr. ES Goddard."

Boston Globe 7/29/1894:

"While the women are devoting themselves to bicycles the men spend their time playing golf at Kebo. Every one is taking great interest in this new game. A club has been formed by Herbert Leeds and AC Barney and they set out every morning at the park, where there is an exceptionally fine course."

[Tom MacWood]

Sheesh Tom...I respect your work...I really, really do...and try not to get personal about this but do you hear yourself?

Personal? This morning you wrote: "This is the kind of revisionist nonsense that takes a basic idea and then tries to morph it into something that it's not and never was, and why some of us think you are such an agenda-driven poor analyst."

Does that sound like respect?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

That's the real inherent and fundamental problem with reliance on newspaper articles.

They simply aren't always accurate!

Boston Sunday Globe, December 17, 1893;




***EDIT*** I apologize for the personal comment.   Sincerely, I do respect your work and your passion, Tom.

[Tom MacWood]

Sure you do.

[Mike Cirba]

November 12th, 1893 - Boston Sunday Globe




Tom,

Let's avoid calling each other fools or idiots in the future.   We're all interested in finding the facts and let's keep it at that level.

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