[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacWood,

Was there a golf course at Essex CC before Willie Campbell's arrival?   How many holes was it?

Also,

Why do you think Wade wrote in 1974 that the original course at Myopia (that he claims was laid out by Appleton, Merrill, and Gardner) was precisely 2050 yards?  

Did he just make up that number, or do you think he got that information from a previously written version of the club history and that unknown author presumably just made up that number, as well as the rest of the story?

Mike
There was a golf course at Essex County in 1893. A golf course, football field, basebal diamond and polo grounds were laid out by CE Cotting, TJ Coolidge, Samuel Knight, FE Simpson and CJ Morse. It was five holes made in a star shaped pattern where the holes crossed. They reportedly used flower pots for holes. Campbell laid out a nine hole course in the spring of 1894, which was later expanded to 11 holes.

[TEPaul]

It seems to me in more cases than not in this early era of golf in America in the late 19th century, members of these early clubs laid out golf holes themselves before any immigrant golf professional got involved in them. Consequently, this should not be considered odd or unusual with Myopia either and particularly since the club's history writer mentioned it in some detail and contemporaneous club records confirm what he wrote in his history book.

As Jeff and Mike and me and some others have mentioned this is probably not some either/or thing with those three members who laid out that original Myopia nine before Campbell arrived in America and Campbell himself and what he did later. When Campbell got there he very likely helped them somehow after the members laid out a nine hole course which lead to those newspaper articles mentioning Campbell. Therefore, the facts seem to show that there is truth in both accounts and both sources----eg the club history and club records and those newspaper accounts.

The problem with MacWood and Moriarty's approach is they seem to be continuously trying to discount the club's account to promote those newspaper articles, and that is not good historical analysis and investigation in my opinion.

Why didn't the club records and the club history book mention Campbell and why didn't those newspaper articles mention the club members? There're very likely some very logical reasons for that which I doubt the participants on this thread will find much of a way to agree on but no matter, history is history and it generally is never as black of white as some try to make it, particularly some on this website.

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
The club's account (Weeks' account) has serious flaws. First that account has no knowledge of Campbell being in Boston, the great impact he had on that cities golf development and specifically on Myopia. Second it has no knowledge or record of Campbell working for the club despite the fact their are numerous reports confirming that employment. And third the account makes no sense from a practical or logical point of view. Forth no one has been able to independently confirm any part of the club's story. Based on that why should would buy any part of that account?

Perhaps you can help us understand...tell us what you learned from the board minutes? Can you describe them, in what form were they when you saw them?

[Tom MacWood]

I note that on the issue of just Willie Campbell himself and his emigration from Scotland and immigration into America and Boston (for the first time) in March of 1894, it probably would be helpful to know more about how exactly that transpired.

It has been said that it was W. B. Thomas (Washington B. Thomas of TCC) that encouraged Campbell to come to America (emigrate) or perhaps sponsor him to America and the world of the early Boston clubs in some way.

For this I suggest we tap our fellow GOLFCLUBALTAS.com contributors abroad such as Niall Carlton, Melvyn Hunter Morrow, Tony Muldoon et al to see what they can come up with over there in the form of research, newspaper accounts or whatever, to find some more details on that, on Campbell and his emigration.

How did Thomas meet Campbell? Where did he meet him and when? What about W.B. Thomas himself? I understand from other "independent" research of my own that Thomas was a big man in the sugar business and perhaps even the so-called "China Trade" as some others of those bigwigs around those early Boston clubs were as well.

I would assume that Thomas must have put this idea of emigrating to America and Boston into Campbell's mind at some point when Thomas was in Scotland, perhaps in 1892 or 1893. I just can't see Thomas sending Willie an email in 1894 and having Willie just pull up stakes in Scotland, leave his wife and such in a week or a month or two and catch the next speed boat to Boston in March 1894.  

TEP
That is a very good question, and I think it is wise that you enlist the help of others to carry out that research.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

Since you think Weeks' account came from a previous history, do you have any knowledge that such a history existed?

It seems very unlikely that Wade for Golf Digest would have come up with the very same information prior to Weeks book, naming the exact same three men, as well as listing the course yardage at 2050 yards, something that Weeks did not know.

If such an account existed that you believe both Weeks and Wade cribbed from, then why does Weeks tell us that he didn't know the exact routing and description of all the holes, much less the total distance?

Could it be that this is simply the contemporaneous account in the club's records, after all?

I agree with Tom Paul that there would be no reason for the members NOT to have tried to lay out a course...Appleton supposedly had already done this type of thing on his own property, and we see other clubs like Essex and TCC did essentially the same thing, even though they had other pros like Alex (not Willie) Campbell at their disposal during the time period they laid out their original courses.

Also, as Niall has pointed out, these early courses were very, very changeable and evolving.   Even if they knew Willie was coming to town, why not lay it out as they thought they needed (and they did have very specific needs to only use land far from the polo fields and hunting grounds, which is probably why they needed to also use Dr. Hopkins land at that period, because they didn't purchase his land until 1897), and then refine and add to it if the game caught on with members.  

The either/or approach you suggest is very strange.

Much the same thing happened at Belmont, it seems.   An original nine-hole course was laid out in 1896 by members who included Dr. Toulmin of later Merion fame.   It is documented clearly in the 1898 Prosper Senat book, as well as other accounts in Golf Magazine.

At some time that year it seems the club had more ambitious plans, to have Willie Campbell build them an 18 hole course, a 9 hole course, and a women's course, as seen in that article that Joe Bausch found.   In fact, that article refers to the original course designed by Toulmin and friends as the "temporary course".    

As mentioned, those planned courses were never built.   That may have been because of a fallout between the Belmont Golf Association and the Belmont Cricket Club, it may have been because membership didn't increase as fast as they hoped, or any number of reasons.  

It's why news accounts need to be supplemented with more information.   I love to look and research via old newspapers as well, and they can be really useful in trying to understand what happened, but they can also yield much misinformation  and they are also very subject to the writer's understanding (or not) of the game and what constitutes golf course design and construction.

In the case of Cobb's Creek, I can show you articles that say that William Flynn designed it...I can show you articles that make it appear that Park Engineer Jesse T. Vogdes designed it....many that include Hugh Wilson and some that don't.

They are imperfect, and without going to the source material there is a higher likelihood of attribution error.

[Tom MacWood]

TMac,

Not sure what you don't understand about the question, but I don't need a day by day timeline.  Just a hunch as to what days he might have been at MH laying out a golf course, same as you asked of Mike.  He did a better job of explaining the nuances of the records that make it sound like MH started the process before Campbell got here, and I agree. 

And, I think once he was here, it was likely they probably called him in at some point.  Like you, I would think, why not?  But if they had the layout done in some preliminary fashion, then I have no trouble thinking they laid it out, and maybe got some tweaks and/or greenskeeping advice from Willie.  I really see no reason, if we are seeking the truth, to debate endlessly as to whether its an either or proposition.  It would be nice to know the details.

I hadn't thought about it, but it sounds logical that WC suggested the sheep. If they had been ordered by May 13, that suggests he did get up there just before that, and not long after he got on these shores.  Of course, with that common membership, it is also possible that once ordered for Brookline, one of the members simply used the idea to MH without bringing Willie up there.

As to your question about the total veracity of the Weeks report because of one use of the word probably, I have opined on that before.  He seems to write from the record when he says they lay it out, and adds probably specifically to signify that he doesn't know if they use wood pegs in the process.  He seems to have no doubt that process occurred.

So, no, I think its a real stretch to call his veracity out on that one word alone.  A real stretch.

Jeff
You said you thought the course was laid out sometime in May, now you are agreeing with Mike that the course was laid out prior to the annual meeting? That would be in the winter. Weeks said the Squire & Co laid out the course in the spring, not the winter. Weeks says the decision to peruse golf at Myopia was made at the annual meeting. You are saying a golf course was already laid out at the time of that meeting. It sounds like you both are now rejecting Weeks account, or at least parts of his account, in order to make your stories work.  And neither one of you have presented any facts to support your theories.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
You did not address any of my questions.

I believe you have confused Robert P. May for Wade. There was a book published in 1942 called 'Early Myopia' written by Allan Forbes. I've never seen it. I don't understand your logic about the total yardage. How would knowing the total yardage give you any insight into the routing?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

I think;

1) Appleton and friends wanted to bring golf to Myopia for some time prior to spring of 1894.

2) Appleton and friends staked out nine holes to see if it was practical either prior to the March meeting or just after.   If I had to guess, I'd say prior, because I am betting they went to that meeting prepared to answer the skeptics and those opposed to the new game.   I'm betting they pre-supposed all the questions and concerns which is why they located their holes far from the clubhouse, the polo fields, and the traditional hunt grounds.  

3) I think they did this prior, and when they got approval for golf they started working on it.   A first step would be to form a working committee of men who were charged with making it happen.   As you know, that group, which was formed sometime before April 15th, 1894, included two of the three men that Weeks and Wade tell us staked out the course, along with another member.

4) I think they did what preliminary work they could during this period, but even your account talks of a big storm around April 9th, so the probably got delayed a bit.  

5) There is no question that Willie Campbell was brought in sometime in April or May, but that one account of yours troubles me...it says he only worked on the course for a few days before it opened.   That makes me think he possibly did very little, and could be the source of the missing attribution in the club records and/or the Weeks and May accounts.    Or, he might have worked on refining and cutting the greens and tees...I'm not sure, and the record is far from clear, but from my perspective, there is way more evidence out there to suggest that both stories are true and accurate than there is to think they are mutually exclusive.  


***EDIT*** Thanks for the correction Tom.   That book would certainly be something interesting to see at this point.   I wonder if the USGA library has a copy?

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

Mike C and TePaul both summarized what I believe pretty well.  If you want to continue to discount Weeks completely for your own reasons, feel free. Posting your chronology was a nice step in all of us speculating, oops, sorry, when you do it, its interpreting, what happend in those few months.  But to use it to subtly misrepresent others is going to lead to nothing but more disagreement. 

I said anytime after April, and that they may have called Willie in by May, if he was the sheep provider/suggester.  Please don't twist my story around and then try to use it to make me look bad.

As far as I can tell, there are no facts to present (absent the club records we don't have) for this detailed a guess as to what happened in this time frame to have some credit the club and some credit Campbell. 

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
You did not address any of my questions.

Your theorized account conflicts with Weeks' account. Are you now rejecting parts of his account? Do you have any evidence to support your new theory or is it just pure conjecture?

[Niall C]

I note that on the issue of just Willie Campbell himself and his emigration from Scotland and immigration into America and Boston (for the first time) in March of 1894, it probably would be helpful to know more about how exactly that transpired.

It has been said that it was W. B. Thomas (Washington B. Thomas of TCC) that encouraged Campbell to come to America (emigrate) or perhaps sponsor him to America and the world of the early Boston clubs in some way.

For this I suggest we tap our fellow GOLFCLUBALTAS.com contributors abroad such as Niall Carlton, Melvyn Hunter Morrow, Tony Muldoon et al to see what they can come up with over there in the form of research, newspaper accounts or whatever, to find some more details on that, on Campbell and his emigration.

How did Thomas meet Campbell? Where did he meet him and when? What about W.B. Thomas himself? I understand from other "independent" research of my own that Thomas was a big man in the sugar business and perhaps even the so-called "China Trade" as some others of those bigwigs around those early Boston clubs were as well.

I would assume that Thomas must have put this idea of emigrating to America and Boston into Campbell's mind at some point when Thomas was in Scotland, perhaps in 1892 or 1893. I just can't see Thomas sending Willie an email in 1894 and having Willie just pull up stakes in Scotland, leave his wife and such in a week or a month or two and catch the next speed boat to Boston in March 1894.  

Tom

I think you give me too much credit in my ability to find this kind of information !!

Off the top of my head the newspaper cuttings I've got on Campbell don't refer to how or who approached him to go to America. I seem to recall that there was some speculation that he would go there before he actually went. In the Tom Morris book which I referenced in an earlier post, the suggestion is that Old Tom would often get requests from abroad or at home for advice on who might be suitable for a particular job and then "place" some acolyte or pro of his acquaintance in that job. That seems to me to be a logical possibility of how Campbell ended up in America but whether Thomas was the man who made the approach I think would be near impossible to know. One thing to bear in mind though is that America was seen as the land of opportunity and not just for budding golf professionals so I don't think that Willie would have needed that much encouragement.

As an aside, Dr MacKenzies tours of Australia and South America came about be referrals from the R&A and USGA respectively following initial queries from Royal Sydney (?) and the Jockey Clubs respectively. It doesn't seem outlandish to think that Campbell ended up in the US following a similar approach to Old Tom.

Sheep - presumably if the Myopia club already had a polo section, the polo field would likely have been "kept" by sheep and therefore they wouldn't have needed that bit of advice from Campbell ?

Niall

[Mike Cirba]

Mike
You did not address any of my questions.

Your theorized account conflicts with Weeks' account. Are you now rejecting parts of his account? Do you have any evidence to support your new theory or is it just pure conjecture?

Tom,

I'm not sure which question I didn't address in my explanation of what I think went down?   Please let me know.

I also would ask where you think my account conflicts with Weeks?   Is it simply that he said "spring" and I said sometime in March, which may have either been before or after March 20?

[TEPaul]

Niall:

Regarding your #1010, much of what you said makes a lot of sense and it's logical. However, what I would encourage you and everyone else on here to do is to really appreciate just how different things were in America in the early to mid 1890s concerning golf over here than they were just a mere ten or fifteen years later. To quantify it, in the early 1890s in Boston there probably weren't more than a score or so people in and around Boston who had the vaguest idea about golf, what it was, how to play it, but ten and fifteen years later there were literally thousands!!

THAT is an historical reality we can just never forget or fail to appreciate in the history and evolution of golf and golf architecture in Boston, iin America and particularly the United States of America, particularly in the early to mid 1890s.

For someone like Tom MacWood to maintain, as he has on here, that a man like Campbell in the early to mid 1890s when he first arrived here was some big celebrated world famous golfer or celebrity over here is frankly just bullshit or a total lack of thought and historical perspective on MacWood's part.

At first Campbell may've been something of a curiosity to those hundred or so Bostonians who first saw him play golf or in those early exhibitions with Davis and Park Jr (which were brilliant promotionally, by the way), but to label him some celebrated hero or celebrated golfer that everyone was waiting for over here back then by more than about a handful or a score at most at first is just ridiculous and completely inaccurate historically.

But that's MacWood----he's a good researcher of names and dates and newspaper articles (that are "independent" of the actually internally administrations of those early clubs) and such but a very poor analyst of the correct context of history itself; he falls into that trap on here all the time apparently in some on-going attempt to over promote the reality and reputation of some of those early immigrant golf professional back then such as Willie Campbell into Boston in 1894.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

I think;

1) Appleton and friends wanted to bring golf to Myopia for some time prior to spring of 1894. Do you have any facts to support this idea?

2) Appleton and friends staked out nine holes to see if it was practical either prior to the March meeting or just after.   If I had to guess, I'd say prior, because I am betting they went to that meeting prepared to answer the skeptics and those opposed to the new game.   I'm betting they pre-supposed all the questions and concerns which is why they located their holes far from the clubhouse, the polo fields, and the traditional hunt grounds.  Your theory that the course was staked out in the winter conflcts with Weeks account that the course was laid out in the spring. Do you have any facts to support your theory?

3) I think they did this prior, and when they got approval for golf they started working on it.   A first step would be to form a working committee of men who were charged with making it happen.   As you know, that group, which was formed sometime before April 15th, 1894, included two of the three men that Weeks and Wade tell us staked out the course, along with another member. Your account reverses the normal chain of events for a new golf course. Normally the first step would be to come to sone consensus or decision about developing a golf course, then next to form a committee, and then finally to lay out the course. Do you have any facts to back up this scenario?

4) I think they did what preliminary work they could during this period, but even your account talks of a big storm around April 9th, so the probably got delayed a bit.  Doesn't this account conflct with Weeks? He said they waited for the snow to melt before starting laying out the course. How long were they delayed in your opinion?

5) There is no question that Willie Campbell was brought in sometime in April or May, but that one account of yours troubles me...it says he only worked on the course for a few days before it opened.   That makes me think he possibly did very little, and could be the source of the missing attribution in the club records and/or the Weeks and May accounts.    Or, he might have worked on refining and cutting the greens and tees...I'm not sure, and the record is far from clear, but from my perspective, there is way more evidence out there to suggest that both stories are true and accurate than there is to think they are mutually exclusive. Why does it trouble you that he laid out these courses in short order? Were you under the impression it took longer? That is what troubles me about Weeks account that the course would take three months to build. That is not consistent with typical golf course developments in Boston in 1894.

***EDIT*** Thanks for the correction Tom.   That book would certainly be something interesting to see at this point.   I wonder if the USGA library has a copy?

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
Can you share with us what specifically you learned from the board minutes (beyond what we read in Weeks' book)? Can you describe those minutes, in what form were they when you saw them?

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

I am again having trouble understanding your points.

Mike says they decided in March to build a golf course.  I agree the formal decision would have been at the Exec Committee meeting, where it was approved, but it would not be a stretch to have done some homework before making a presentation at a formal board meeting, would it?  At least I have never heard of going before a board without some preparation and facts.

They formed a committee, reported on April 15, but most likely right there in their Exec meeting, choosing mostly the same guys who started the process, and proceeded to lay it out thereafter, most likely as soon as the snow melted, as reported.  Sounds pretty logical and in order to me. 

I would agree that the March work probably wasn't actual routing, as Mike said. But I think there would have been some pre-planning period before a formal meeting presentation.  You turn that into "they laid it out in "winter" although yes, the first day of spring is usually about March 21 or so, "officially."

I think they could have walked the property, decided where the land would best be used, etc., to be prepared for the meeting on the 13th.  Just because there was a big snow in April, the ground could have been lightly covered, etc.  Or, they could have just chosen to walk in snow.  Its certainly not impossible.

[TEPaul]

"TEP
Can you share with us what specifically you learned from the board minutes (beyond what we read in Weeks' book)? Can you describe those minutes, in what form were they when you saw them?"



Tom MacWood:

Of course I CAN do that. However, as I see it now, I have approximately 2-5 problems to resolve before I would consider doing that on this website. On that note, I'm very definitely considering making a proposal on here in some form, and hopefully with Ran Morrissett's help or input, that can and really will resolve those approximately 2-5 problems, and not just in the short term but in the long term. If and when they are all resolved I would be glad to share anything on this website I know and have seen or read at Myopia or any other club with which I have those kinds of relationships.

[Tom MacWood]

TMac,

I am again having trouble understanding your points.

Mike says they decided in March to build a golf course.  I agree the formal decision would have been at the Exec Committee meeting, where it was approved, but it would not be a stretch to have done some homework before making a presentation at a formal board meeting, would it?  At least I have never heard of going before a board without some preparation and facts.

They formed a committee, reported on April 15, but most likely right there in their Exec meeting, choosing mostly the same guys who started the process, and proceeded to lay it out thereafter, most likely as soon as the snow melted, as reported.  Sounds pretty logical and in order to me. 

I would agree that the March work probably wasn't actual routing, as Mike said. But I think there would have been some pre-planning period before a formal meeting presentation.  You turn that into "they laid it out in "winter" although yes, the first day of spring is usually about March 21 or so, "officially."

I think they could have walked the property, decided where the land would best be used, etc., to be prepared for the meeting on the 13th.  Just because there was a big snow in April, the ground could have been lightly covered, etc.  Or, they could have just chosen to walk in snow.  Its certainly not impossible.

Jeff
What kind of homework? Specifically what would they have hoped to learn from this homework? Presumably these men had seen or played over the early golf courses at Brookline and Essex County since they were also members at one or both of those clubs. They also knew Campbell was on his way. It seems to me this is just another exrecise in blatant speculation without a single fact to support your theories? When are you two going to introduce some facts to support your ever evolving speculation?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Why didn't you mention that they had played all of their golf to date (March 1894) on amateur-member-designed courses?

The courses they learned on at TCC and Essex were designed by members, and they also played the amateur designed courses at estates like Appleton Farms, and Hunnewell's place.

These guys thought nothing of laying out a course, because that's all that had been done to date in Boston, and that's all they knew.

I'm sure they were bringing over a champion golfer who was also a clubmaker and teacher and presumably a green keeper in Campbell, but it's doubtful that they would have heard of or seen or even heard of the small handful of very obscure courses he'd designed abroad before then.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Things like how long it would take to put a golf course in play.....do you think they just made that up at the meeting, or came prepared?  What land to use, given the strife between the hunting and new golfing interests?  It wouldn't be hard for most of us to envision that some discussions like that were in play before going to a formal meeting.

And remind me again why it is that I speculate and when you say "the Weeks account reads like fiction" or "It makes no sense that they wouldn't use Campbell" without providing facts is okey dokey?  Do you, like David, just presume that your "logic" is beyond question? 

Its fun and perhaps educational if we keep snooping around to find a scenario that might fit the information we know.  You speculate as much as anyone on this site, but just won't admit it, and don't always agree with mine or others.  There are gaps that need to be filled and in lieu of new documents, we are trying to patch something together here.  Again, it can be fun but when we all get to arguing others points down, that is definitely NOT the same as trying to find new fact.

Just out of curiosity, what do you think of Niall's comment that they already had sheep at Myopia and knew how to clip grass without asking Willie Campbell about it?  Truthfully, I hadn't really thought of that either.

[Mike Cirba]

If they had lawn tennis prior they would have needed to keep those courts closely shorn, as well.

[Tom MacWood]

"TEP
Can you share with us what specifically you learned from the board minutes (beyond what we read in Weeks' book)? Can you describe those minutes, in what form were they when you saw them?"



Tom MacWood:

Of course I CAN do that. However, as I see it now, I have approximately 2-5 problems to resolve before I would consider doing that on this website. On that note, I'm very definitely considering making a proposal on here in some form, and hopefully with Ran Morrissett's help or input, that can and really will resolve those approximately 2-5 problems, and not just in the short term but in the long term. If and when they are all resolved I would be glad to share anything on this website I know and have seen or read at Myopia or any other club with which I have those kinds of relationships.

Good luck with that, I hope rediscovering your credibility and integrity are not two of those five things needing to be resolved, because if that is the case we could be waiting a while.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

Why didn't you mention that they had played all of their golf to date (March 1894) on amateur-member-designed courses?

The courses they learned on at TCC and Essex were designed by members, and they also played the amateur designed courses at estates like Appleton Farms, and Hunnewell's place.

These guys thought nothing of laying out a course, because that's all that had been done to date in Boston, and that's all they knew.

I'm sure they were bringing over a champion golfer who was also a clubmaker and teacher and presumably a green keeper in Campbell, but it's doubtful that they would have heard of or seen or even heard of the small handful of very obscure courses he'd designed abroad before then.

Mike
You did not know TCC had a 6-hole course in 1893? I have mentioned it on this thread, and more than once. Its also alluded to in my profile of Campbell from my essay on this site. Weeks also mentioned it. Didn't you just transcribe that part of his book the other day? I've also mentioned they were members of TCC on numerous occasions. Are you having some kind of mental block?

I love and appreciate fiction as much as the next guy, but when it comes to documenting history it helps if you can include some facts. You two are giving TEP a run for his money when it comes to fabricating these wild tales, because that is all they are. Last I checked we have three independent reports of Campbell designing Myopia. We have zero reports that the Squire & Co were involved in any design activities at Myopia. But don't let me stop you there is definitely some entertainment value in these very creative stories.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TePaul,

I think you lost ALL credibility when you didn't provide factual back up for that contention of what it took to be master of the hounds....I think we should have the hounds on here to back it up!

Sort of OT, but what exactly are credibility and integrity on gca.com?  Are they different than in real life?

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

No, that was not one of the 2-5 problems to be resolved. But if you want to use a baseball analogy I guess you have two more guesses. Good luck, and if you're gonna strike out at least be sure to do it swinging away!  

I was just speaking with the eminent Jeffrey Brauer, Sir etc, and we were talking about the efficacy of a sort of Christmas holiday hiatus here. Unfortunately, the two of us got to talking about Santa Claus and we realized just how much he gets around all over the world every year and has for like forever, so we were wondering if perhaps Santa Claus had some significant design input into the likes of Merion and Myopia and has not as yet been given the credit he deserves for it by those two clubs?!!

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