[Tom MacWood]

Here are Campbell's American designs in approximate chronological order. There are three other courses - Warren Farm, Pride's Crossing & Appleton Farm - I suspect he was involved in laying out but have not found the confirming documentation as yet. 

The Country Club, MA 1894
Essex County, MA 1894
Myopia Hunt, MA 1894
Nahant, MA 1894
Wakefield, MA 1894
Merion Cricket, PA 1896
Belmont Cricket, PA 1896
Philadelphia, PA 1896
Franklin Park, MA 1896
Huntingdon Valley, PA 1897
Winchester, MA 1897
Salem, MA 1897
Topsfield, MA 1897
Hawthorn, MA 1897
Cambridge, MA 1897
Wakefield Park, MA 1897
Bridgewater, MA 1897
Beaver Meadow, NH 1897
Wannamoisett, RI 1898
Tatnuck, MA 1898
Moorestown Field, NJ 1898

[DMoriarty]

TomM,

I have the impression that at the Country Club, Essex, and Myopia members were golfing on his layouts almost immediately after they were laid out.  Do you have any confirmation of this?   For example, do you know when Campbell expanded the course at Essex?  He may have laid out Myopia at around the same time.   If I recall correctly they were playing on the Essex course by around June 10th, 1894.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

If you want to continue perpetuating the fantsy that Campbell was responsible for Belmont or offered anything other suggestions on Philly CC then be my guest, but I'm really not sure why you aren't comfortable enough with hos actual accomplishments and feel this need to be hos fluffer.

Oh well..whatever.

[Tom MacWood]

David
Yes, both courses were laid out in the spring. Brookline most likely before Essex County. Here is a chronology of the events gathered from contemporaneous reports. I don't have the info about the Myopia golf committee. Does anyone have it? I'll add that info later.

March 13 - Myopia HC annual meeting Boston. This is apparently when it was decided to lay out a links
March 31 - Campbell arrives in Boston.
April 9 - Campbell first day on the job at Brookline, but lessons are cancelled due to snow.
April 15 - Campbell gives instructions daily at Brookline.
April 26 - It is announce Campbell will spend the season at Essex County.
May 13 - Sheep are on their way to Myopia; they will pastured on the tract where the course will be laid out.
May 18 - Campbell defeats Willie Davis on the nine hole course at Brookline. Appleton and Burnham on hand. Herbert Leeds one of the best golfers at Brookline. He just learned the game this spring. Others who play the game at Brookline are Thomas, Merrill and Burnham.
May 20 - Brookline has 110 sheep from Capt. Perkins place in New Hampshire.
May 27 - Campbell breaks the course record at Brookline.
Early June - Leeds lays out the course at Kebo Valley.
June 3 - Campbell will be at Essex County during the summer. Golf Committee includes WB Thomas. Campbell intends on making his home in America, pushing the game into the prominence it enjoys in other parts of the world.
June 10 - The first tournament at Myopia will be June 18. Thomas, Appleton, Gardner and Merrill will play.
June 18 - The first tournament at Myopia on the new links laid out by Campbell. Leeds has the low score.
July 4 - The second tournament at Myopia. Leeds has the low score.
July 13 - Campbell is at Essex County. He laid the course out in the spring.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

If you want to continue perpetuating the fantsy that Campbell was responsible for Belmont or offered anything other suggestions on Philly CC then be my guest, but I'm really not sure why you aren't comfortable enough with hos actual accomplishments and feel this need to be hos fluffer.

Oh well..whatever.

Joe Bausch posted contemporaneous reports claiming Campbell designed both courses earlier in this thread.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom.

Those courses were never built. 

[DMoriarty]

For whatever it is worth, Willie Dunn claimed to have designed Philadelphia Country Club.  I have seen a few newspaper reports linking him to the course, including one from the Philadelphia Inquirer, May 4, 1896, which indicated that extensive alterations to the existing course were underway, with Dunn's supervision.  

[Tom MacWood]

After Campbell defeated Willie Davis at Brookline in mid-May Laurence Curtis would later write, it 'was the first real golf any of us had ever seen.'

March 13 - Myopia HC annual meeting Boston. This is apparently when it was decided to lay out a links
March 31 - Campbell arrives in Boston. His importation into the States was arranged by WB Thomas.
April 9 - Campbell first day on the job at Brookline, but lessons are cancelled due to snow.
April 15 - A subcommittee of Appleton, Merrill and Burnham was appointed to introduce golf to Myopia. Campbell gives instructions daily at Brookline, and will go to Essex County on June 10.
May 13 - Sheep are on their way to Myopia; they will be pastured on the tract where the course will be laid out.
May 18 - Campbell defeats Willie Davis on the nine hole course at Brookline. Appleton, Thomas and Burnham on hand. Herbert Leeds one of the best golfers at Brookline; he just learned the game this spring. Others who play the game at Brookline are Thomas, Merrill and Burnham.
May 20 - Brookline has 110 sheep from Capt. Perkins place in New Hampshire.
May 27 - Campbell breaks the course record at Brookline.
Early June - Leeds lays out the course at Kebo Valley.
June 3 - Campbell will be at Essex County during the summer. Golf Committee includes WB Thomas. Campbell intends on making his home in America, pushing the game into the prominence it enjoys in other parts of the world.
June 10 - The first tournament at Myopia will be June 18. Thomas, Appleton, Gardner and Merrill will play.
June 18 - The first tournament at Myopia on the new links laid out by Campbell. Leeds has the low score.
July 4 - The second tournament at Myopia. Leeds has the low score.
July 13 - Campbell is at Essex County. He laid the course out in the spring.

[Mike Cirba]

David,

Willie Dunn, huh?

Thanks for the late weekend laugh.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
Where in that timeline would you place Merrill, Appleton & Gardner laying out Myopia?

[DMoriarty]

David,

Willie Dunn, huh?

Thanks for the late weekend laugh.

Mike Cirba

Gee, what a surprise that you would scoff at yet another of these Scottish professionals.

Laugh it up all you like, but that is what was reported in the Philadelphia Inquirer.  I almost forgot that your distain for (and ignorance about) these early pros automatically trumps any and all contemporaneous accounts. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

Good evening.  I have a question from your post #974, in response to my question earlier about whether you have verifiable backup to know what that the papers got info from club souces.  Your response:

 "1.  I don't just "say" the newspaper accounts were based on sources within the club, I explained, repeatedly, the details that made me think that this may have been the case."

So, if I have this right, you are offering up yourself - and your own detailed explanations of your opinions - as corroborating evidence for your own theories?  You may say I don't know much about the historic research process, but c'mon, even I know you can't do that!

Hey, based on your opinion that I don't know much about great historians, would you say your style derives more from the little known native american historian Lotta Bull, who wrote about the Roswall, NM incident from the point of view of the aliens, or from Pilson "Al" Odecrap", who gained fame by writing 37,452 pages declaring each opinion, fact and source in the Warren Report on the JFK assination "unreliable?"  I have trouble deciding!

But, thanks for reinforcing my basic point that much of your analysis relies on your own self inflated view of your historic analytical abilities, which while probably right some times (and I have admitted that) probably wouldn't pass muster beyond this website.  And, I have admitted the same for the rest of us, even if picking on you more of the time.

Have a good holiday, and please consider blessing us all with the gift of silence.

Cheers and to all a good night!

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

First, I appreciate you putting that chronolgy together.  While all dates have been posted, it helps to see it in order.

To answer your question directed at Mike, Weeks says "after the snow melts in spring" which we have pegged at about April 11, and the committee was apparently appointed on April 15.  It could be any time after that day.

The sheep are coming on May 13, but that doesn't necessarily mean they had the fairways laid out. It just means they were certain they would be somewhere.  We know it was before the opening tournament, of course.

Just out of curiosity, where would you put Willie Campbell in that timeline, given his specifically known whereabouts on some days?

[DMoriarty]

Jeff Brauer

Hmmmm. Because I explained why those articles made sense to me you have concluded that I have inappropriately  offered up myself - and my detailed explanations of my opinions - as corroborating evidence of my own theories?  And you think this means that my analysis relies on my own self inflated view of my historic analytical abilities?  

You are proving yourself an amazing intellectual force in this thread, Mr. Brauer, with logic far beyond anything I could ever begin to comprehend.  

[Tom MacWood]

TMac,

First, I appreciate you putting that chronolgy together.  While all dates have been posted, it helps to see it in order.

To answer your question directed at Mike, Weeks says "after the snow melts in spring" which we have pegged at about April 11, and the committee was apparently appointed on April 15.  It could be any time after that day.

The sheep are coming on May 13, but that doesn't necessarily mean they had the fairways laid out. It just means they were certain they would be somewhere.  We know it was before the opening tournament, of course.

Just out of curiosity, where would you put Willie Campbell in that timeline, given his specifically known whereabouts on some days?

Jeff
Campbell's whereabouts are reported all along within the timeline. I don't understand your question. Are you looking for a day by day report?

Do you think it is likely Campbell introduced sheep at Myopia since he introduced sheep at Brookline and Essex County, and later at Franklin Park?

Since you specialize in speculating lets get your take after looking at the timeline. Brookline, Essex County and Myopia had more or less the same membership, the same names pop up at all those clubs, especially when it comes to golf. Why would the leadership at Brookline and Essex County have Campbell lay out their golf courses, but Myopia chose to have the master of the hounds lay out their course? And how do you explain the three separate reports that Campbell laid out Myopia but no reports of the Squire & Co doing anything?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

When something is reported, particularly in a gossip column as opposed to hard news, is NOT the day it happened.

The Myopia subcommittee was appointed sometime before April 15th.   April 15th was the date it was reported in a gossip column.  We don't know the exact date they were appointed for certain, but it was very likely at the Myopia meeting earlier in March.

We also know that at that March meeting that Appleton suggested the club pursue a golf course.   The Weeks account reads as though Appleton, Merrill, and Gardner routed the golf course before that meeting in March.     Why do I say that?  Because after relating the account of the three men "footing it over the club acres, spotting the tees and pacing off the distance to provisional greens", he writes;

"Appleton and his partners reported to the executive committee that nine holes could be made ready for play in three months..."

How would they know that Tom if they hadn't already been making preparations? 

Sorry, but this was all well before Willie Campbell arrived on these shores Tom.

Also...you say WC designed Essex, but weren't they already playing there before WC arrived in June 1894?


David,

Most of these guys were self promoters to the press in an effort to generate a name (and business) for themselves.   Willie Dunn also claimed responsibility for the first Merion.

What do you think he was doing...following Willie Campbell around correcting his mistakes?

And about the press...are you trying to help us point out their obvious fallibility by pointing out such gross errors?

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
So you are saying the course was paced off a week or so before Campbell arrived? And to make this work you are claiming the mid-April report that a committee had been formed to introduce golf to Myopia was a delayed report by a month or more?

The information you are quoting from Weeks, where do you think he got that information and have you been able independently confirm any of it?

Weeks does not give any dates, no date for the annual meeting and no approximate date for when the Squire & Co laid out the course, just it was in the spring and after the snow melted. The first day of spring is March 21, when do you think the snow melted?

Do you think the fact that Weeks says they 'probably' marked out the tees and greens with pegs brings question to the veracity of his account?

Since you have presented a much different scenario than Jeff I'll ask you the same questions I asked him. Brookline, Essex County and Myopia had more or less the same membership, the same names pop up at all those clubs, especially when it comes to golf. Why would the leadership at Brookline and Essex County have Campbell lay out their golf courses, but Myopia chose to have the master of the hounds lay out their course? And how do you explain the three separate reports that Campbell laid out Myopia but no reports of the Squire & Co doing anything?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

I'll answer later as time permits but was there golf at Essex before Campbell arrived in June 1894?

[JC Jones]

Just as an aside, I'd prefer it if you all referred to me as the "Master of the Hounds" from here on out.

Thanks.

[TEPaul]

Michael:

According to some information from Essex on their history there were golf holes before (1893) Campbell arrived in America (March 31, 1894). The same was the case with TCC (1892-93).

By the way, your #990 is an excellent and logical presentation of your opinion of the events and chronology of the beginnings of golf and a golf course at Myopia and it squares with what I have seen from club records of that time. I do realize at this time mentioning this may not be appropriate to some. Certainly Moriarty, and perhaps MacWood too, have tried to limit the very discussion on here of events of that time to only what has been or can be actually and physically posted on here in the form of a copy or digital scan of original source material (in their case newspaper accounts). And they only seem to accept contemporaneous accounts, and not really the account of the club's history writer who published his book in 1975.

I do not have a problem with that if this website (I suppose including Ran Morrissett) wants to turn this Discussion Group (DG) on this website into the same structure and procedures as a court of law and probably one that requires a jury. In that structure and procedure, my understanding is evidence or any opinions on evidence or potential evidence must first be submitted to the judge as an exhibit and also agreed upon regarding its submission by the opposing side (to the side that submits it). And then there is the procedure of Disclosure or Discovery in which my understanding is the opposing side has the right to review the evidence before it is submitted as an evidence exhibit and discussed and argued.

If this is the way this website wants its DG to operate then I'm fine with that; I just would not continue to participate in the same way I have in the past about what I know and have seen and read at varioius golf clubs and about various golf clubs to do with their architectural histories which does not fall into the category of "public domain" material.

[Mike Cirba]

JC...err...I mean Master of the Hounds. 

Done.

[TEPaul]

"Just as an aside, I'd prefer it if you all referred to me as the "Master of the Hounds" from here on out."


JC:

You can ask for that but it is definitely not the simple request you may suspect it is. THE "Master of the Fox Hounds" is actually and traditionally quite the august position in a hunt club. In some ways it is the leader of the club. To actually be appointed the Master of the Fox Hounds of a hunt club one usually must be an expert fox hunter, rider, and all-around expert in the age old sport of fox Hunting including its fairly unique and traditional etiquette. To be that one must prove himself to his peers and fellow fox hunters. a test of riding expertise is a prerequisite and then there is the matter of the fox hounds themselves. They are quite unique and odd animals and they are referred to as "bitches" if they are female and "dogs" if they are male (to them that is the ultimate form or address respect). To be an effective Master of the Fox Hounds one must also pass a rather grueling and complex series of tests with the hounds themselves that entails and includes a formal written and oral examination (something like admission to law school or the passing of the bar) with the Hounds as well as generally at least a day long session where the Master of the Fox Hound candidate spends a day in the kennels alone with the fox hounds essentially looking them all in the eye. I have actually seen this last thing in person and unless and until the Master of the Fox Hounds can develop a situation and relationship with those fox hounds something like Crocidile Dundee did with oxen and kangaroos and the like out in the Australian Outback, the Master of the Fox Hounds is very likely to fail his test to be appointed to such an august position in a fox hunting club such as Myopia Hunt Club.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

Was there a golf course at Essex CC before Willie Campbell's arrival?   How many holes was it?

Also,

Why do you think Wade wrote in 1974 that the original course at Myopia (that he claims was laid out by Appleton, Merrill, and Gardner) was precisely 2050 yards?  

Did he just make up that number, or do you think he got that information from a previously written version of the club history and that unknown author presumably just made up that number, as well as the rest of the story?

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

Not sure what you don't understand about the question, but I don't need a day by day timeline.  Just a hunch as to what days he might have been at MH laying out a golf course, same as you asked of Mike.  He did a better job of explaining the nuances of the records that make it sound like MH started the process before Campbell got here, and I agree. 

And, I think once he was here, it was likely they probably called him in at some point.  Like you, I would think, why not?  But if they had the layout done in some preliminary fashion, then I have no trouble thinking they laid it out, and maybe got some tweaks and/or greenskeeping advice from Willie.  I really see no reason, if we are seeking the truth, to debate endlessly as to whether its an either or proposition.  It would be nice to know the details.

I hadn't thought about it, but it sounds logical that WC suggested the sheep. If they had been ordered by May 13, that suggests he did get up there just before that, and not long after he got on these shores.  Of course, with that common membership, it is also possible that once ordered for Brookline, one of the members simply used the idea to MH without bringing Willie up there.

As to your question about the total veracity of the Weeks report because of one use of the word probably, I have opined on that before.  He seems to write from the record when he says they lay it out, and adds probably specifically to signify that he doesn't know if they use wood pegs in the process.  He seems to have no doubt that process occurred.

So, no, I think its a real stretch to call his veracity out on that one word alone.  A real stretch.

[TEPaul]

I note that on the issue of just Willie Campbell himself and his emigration from Scotland and immigration into America and Boston (for the first time) in March of 1894, it probably would be helpful to know more about how exactly that transpired.

It has been said that it was W. B. Thomas (Washington B. Thomas of TCC) that encouraged Campbell to come to America (emigrate) or perhaps sponsor him to America and the world of the early Boston clubs in some way.

For this I suggest we tap our fellow GOLFCLUBALTAS.com contributors abroad such as Niall Carlton, Melvyn Hunter Morrow, Tony Muldoon et al to see what they can come up with over there in the form of research, newspaper accounts or whatever, to find some more details on that, on Campbell and his emigration.

How did Thomas meet Campbell? Where did he meet him and when? What about W.B. Thomas himself? I understand from other "independent" research of my own that Thomas was a big man in the sugar business and perhaps even the so-called "China Trade" as some others of those bigwigs around those early Boston clubs were as well.

I would assume that Thomas must have put this idea of emigrating to America and Boston into Campbell's mind at some point when Thomas was in Scotland, perhaps in 1892 or 1893. I just can't see Thomas sending Willie an email in 1894 and having Willie just pull up stakes in Scotland, leave his wife and such in a week or a month or two and catch the next speed boat to Boston in March 1894.  

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