[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

You can certainly say that about me or about those club records; you've said things like that on here in the past. The fact is, however, you are never going to know unless and until you actually begin to go to that club and others like it and read them and see them for yourself, as I have. But on the flipside I have come to realize that you may not want to do that for whatever your reasons and I also realize given much of what you have said on here about various people your option of ever doing that is probably one that is rapidly not going to be available to you even if you did want to do it. The fact is, what you, and perhaps Moriarty, say is the best METHOD of going about what you call "truth seeking" is just not shared by anyone else, at least not those who hold the keys to places where the truth about these clubs and their collective histories is actually found.

Eventually, that will leave you two this website and its soapbox, and probably the only ones on this soapbox, to be howling against everyone elses' opinions and howling against the wind that everyone else is wrong; that these clubs' histories and their books are all fiction and fantasy and myth borne of some collective conspiracy to protect some club icon at the expense of someone else who really deserves the credit.

Furthermore, as I've said before, for you to assume, conclude and claim on here or anywhere else that those club records just don't exist simply because you have never seen them is pretty much the height of a lack of analytical understanding and ability and frankly a fundamental lack of intelligence. Again, even a third grader with a decent mind would not possibly contend such an idiotic notion, as you constantly do on here.

Even though it may not serve as any encouragement to you, I did speak with them yesterday, and at some point next year we should be getting together again to go over everything extant that they have on their 135 year old history.

[DMoriarty]

TEPaul,  

I don't need to see the club records to know that you provided us with a phony version of the S. Dacre Bush quote in order to try and convince us that it was less vague than it really was.

And I don't need the club records to know that you falsely claimed that the S. Dacre Bush quote was a 1894 entry into the club minutes, and that S. Dacre Bush was the Club Secretary at the time.  

I can figure out why you misrepresented your knowledge of the minutes and of the S. Dacre Bush quote, but since you are posting here again, why don't you explain why you posted a phony version of the S. Dacre Bush quote?  

The fact is, what you, and perhaps Moriarty, say is the best METHOD of going about what you call "truth seeking" is just not shared by anyone else, at least not those who hold the keys to places where the truth about these clubs and their collective histories is actually found.

TEPaul, I disagree.   So far as I understand it, the USGA agrees with us, which is why they are supposedly creating a USGA Archives which will allow anyone interested to readily access all of the source material from these clubs without receiving special favor from the clubs.   The real question is how can someone like you be involved in that project when you are so adamantly opposed to anyone other than those with connections having access to such documents.  It seems the USGA has unfortunately left the foxes in charge of the henhouse.

[TEPaul]

"So far as I can tell, that is about where we stand."



David:

I'm not sure who you consider to be "we" in that statement, but if it is GOLFCLUBATLAS.com, I believe that statement of yours is an accurate summation of your #924, and will probably continue to be given certain circumstances in the future. I'm afraid a certain inherent problem has developed and will continue to develop with GOLFCLUBATLAS.com amongst and with certain clubs that would include Merion and Myopia.



"I can figure out why you misrepresented your knowledge of the minutes and of the S. Dacre Bush quote, but since you are posting here again, why don't you explain why you posted a phony version of the S. Dacre Bush quote?"


DM:

That's OK; at this point, I am quite content to just watch you continue to speculate about it----and anything else about Myopia's records and history that you have never seen.  

[DMoriarty]

I don't blame you for not addressing it TEPaul.  After all there is no excuse for that kind of blatant dishonesty and manipulation.

[TEPaul]

"I don't blame you for not addressing it TEPaul.  After all there is no excuse for that kind of blatant dishonesty and manipulation."



David:

I accept that remark of yours and I accept the type of remark it is; I'm used to it now since it has happened with you so often and for so long on this website. But the reason I don't address it (some of the questions you ask) has nothing at all to do with what you think it is or as you portray it. It's almost the polar opposite actually, and it is also massively important, in my opinion. I just don't think you are willing to address that on here, unfortunately.

[DMoriarty]

There is nothing for me to address.

You are the one who posted the phony quote and falsely claimed that various "facts" came from Myopia's minutes.  Not me.

[Mike Cirba]

David,

I really don't think there is anyone else standing where you say "we stand" except perhaps Tom MacWood and even he concedes that Leeds is responsible for the 18 hole course and bunkering so perhaps you should just say this is where you stand and we can agree to disagree until any new evidence surfaces.

Happy holidays and thanks for the discussion.

[DMoriarty]

Mike Cirba,

I never denied that Leeds designed the eighteen.

Whether you "stand" there or not, what I wrote above is TRUE is it not?

Here it is again for your easy review:

Meanwhile, if we strip away all the posturing, insults, and indignation, I think we are left with what follows:

1. The only contemporaneous accounts which have thus far been brought forward and which directly address the issue are those multiple newspaper articles indicating that Willie Campbell laid out the course, and other articles indicating that this must have occurred after mid-May 1894.  

2. We also have one report by a club member, published three years after the fact, which indicated that Bush and Parker laid out the course.

3. While Appleton, Merrill, and Burnham were reportedly on a sub-committee charged with bringing golf to Myopia, and while these men and Gardner were all golfers, no one has brought forward any contemporaneous reports indicating that Appleton, Merrill, and Gardner laid out the original course.

4. Over eighty (80) years after the fact, Weeks wrote that, in what Weeks seems to think was early March 1894, that Appleton, Merrill, and Gardner paced off the course and "probably" marked it off with pegs. Unfortunately, Weeks did not explain from where he got this information.  While Weeks was obviously speculating about how these three "probably" marked the greens with pegs, it is unclear whether Weeks had a source for the rest of the information or whether it is simply his best effort at explaining what he thinks "probably" happened.  Weeks did include one quote from S. Dacre Bush, mistakenly identified as the Club Secretary, but the Bush quote does not address who laid out the course.  

So far as I can tell, that is about where we stand.  

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

Good evening. At the risk of keeping this going vs. putting it to bed, the answer is no one is sure if the above is true or not.  Someone like Phil Young would know better than I, but I suspect that if ANY of us put our theories up for vetting the reviewers would ask what sources we used, and upon hearing that club records are known to exist, but we only have used second hand versions of them, or not used them at all because we don't have access to them, they would send us back to the drawing boards until those became available to us.

At a club like Myopia, that won't necessarily happen, and I suspect that any club like that would tend to avoid it after seeing these dogfights.  We may not like that idea, but I fear we contribute to it by the way WE (and I include me) act.

So far as I can tell, that is about where we REALLY stand.

[Tom MacWood]

Furthermore, as I've said before, for you to assume, conclude and claim on here or anywhere else that those club records just don't exist simply because you have never seen them is pretty much the height of a lack of analytical understanding and ability and frankly a fundamental lack of intelligence. Again, even a third grader with a decent mind would not possibly contend such an idiotic notion, as you constantly do on here.

TEP
I have no idea how intelligent you are, but I do know you have done and said a lot of stupid things over the years, and often they were in connection to me. I try to avoid commenting on things I know nothing about or have not researched thoroughly, you make a habit of it. That combined with your penchant to mislead, fabricate, or whatever you want to call it. I think your greatest strength and greatest weakness is the same, a short memory.

[Mike Cirba]

Jeff,

Truer words were never spoken here.

Tis a pity.

[Tom MacWood]

David,

Good evening. At the risk of keeping this going vs. putting it to bed, the answer is no one is sure if the above is true or not.  Someone like Phil Young would know better than I, but I suspect that if ANY of us put our theories up for vetting the reviewers would ask what sources we used, and upon hearing that club records are known to exist, but we only have used second hand versions of them, or not used them at all because we don't have access to them, they would send us back to the drawing boards until those became available to us.

At a club like Myopia, that won't necessarily happen, and I suspect that any club like that would tend to avoid it after seeing these dogfights.  We may not like that idea, but I fear we contribute to it by the way WE (and I include me) act.

So far as I can tell, that is about where we REALLY stand.

Phil Young? With all due respect to Phil I don't think this topic is something he would have run across or researched very thoroughly in his focus on Tilly.

[TEPaul]

"I try to avoid commenting on things I know nothing about or have not researched thoroughly,"



Tom MacWood:

I wish that were true but unfortunately it's not. No one, not even you, can thoroughly research any golf course if they have never been to it, seen it, or what historical material is in its club, and this is the case with you and Merion or Myopia and a number of others you pretend to know something about.

It shows, and it will continue to show unless and until you overcome that limitation and barrier! I realize this may be difficult for you to accept or understand but most everyone else does (with the odd exception like Moriarty) and there's no reason you shouldn't be able to as well unless there really is something wrong with you which has certainly occured to some of us, unfortunately.

[Tom MacWood]

Let's get back on topic, and see who knows what.

[TEPaul]

"Let's get back on topic, and see who knows what."


Wow, twenty seven pages into this agenda driven thread begun by MacWood almost a year and a half ago and reprised and perpetuated by MacWood and Moriarty a couple of times and he says that at this point!? This has definitely gotten sad.

[Tom MacWood]

What can you tell us about John Jones and his involvement in the course's design?

[Tom MacWood]

That's what I thought, and I don't think it is surprising to many - good connections do not necessarily translate to historical knowledge.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

Another example of someone, in this case you, really missing the point of a post.  I didn't mention Phil because he has researched Myopia...I mentioned him because he has really put his research out there professionally, in a book, and in an environment where stuff has to be pretty well vetted to be published.  I also mentioned him because when I asked the same question on the other threads, he did venture a fair opinion that David's Merion piece was far enough along to be submitted for peer review.

As you can tell, I am suggesting that none of us are that far along in this case.

I think if this thread got submitted to "real historians" we would have a scene like the movie "Unstoppable" (which is also a good name for these kind of threads):

"Don't want to work in a day care center......"

I can also imagine this whole thing would really get solved faster if just put that Wiki Leaks guy on the case to go find those documents.

[DMoriarty]

David,

Good evening. At the risk of keeping this going vs. putting it to bed, the answer is no one is sure if the above is true or not.  Someone like Phil Young would know better than I, but I suspect that if ANY of us put our theories up for vetting the reviewers would ask what sources we used, and upon hearing that club records are known to exist, but we only have used second hand versions of them, or not used them at all because we don't have access to them, they would send us back to the drawing boards until those became available to us.

Jeff Brauer,  

1. You don't seem to have any idea what "real historians" do, so you probably should stop speculating about it.  It seems to be another situation where you simply just assume whatever facts you think might support whatever point you want to make.  

2.  You state that we don't know if what I wrote above is true?  Did you even read the post?   It contains no conclusion about who did what, but rather simply addresses what contemporaneous source material has been brought forward here.  Maybe you aren't familiar with what contemporaneous information has been brought forward here, but some of us are.  

[TEPaul]

"I can also imagine this whole thing would really get solved faster if just put that Wiki Leaks guy on the case to go find those documents."


Jeffrey:

This is why you're the best; I'm still laughing at that one. Do you think MacWood and Moriarty could hire some computer geeks sort of like modern day Watergate plumbers to break into Myopia in the middle of the night and photograph, scan and digitize all Myopia's records and put them on the Internet?? If that happened do you think Myopia would have MacWood and Moriarty arrested in Massachussets for rape like England did with that Wikileak guy Assange??  
 
Can't you just hear Moriarty? "But your Honor, "as far as I know" Myopia said this "probably" constitutes private information rape, therefore this is merely "speculation" and can not actually rise to the level of "verifiable evidence" of informational rape of a private club!!"
 

[JC Jones]

Tom,

So Leeds had already solely designed Kebo Valley and done design work at Palmetto before becoming a member of Myopia?   

Leeds designed Kebo Valley in June of 1894; that course was replaced in 1898. I'm not sure when he was involved in the design of Palmetto.

Per the Palmetto Club History, Leeds was involved in laying out the course (15 holes of the 18, 3 were already there) between the years of 1892 and 1895.

[TEPaul]

JC:

There's a ton of interesting information on that Palmetto club history that goes directly to the conversation we had last night-----eg what a small world it was back then amongst those people who created some of those really old clubs and golf courses. The names are a virtual "Who's Who" of that east coast crowd back then.

With Palmetto and Aiken the interweaving and intertwinning of the recreational world of the horse, particularly polo and fox hunting with golf is every bit as strong as it is with Myopia and other clubs like it such as Meadowbrook very early on and Piping Rock somewhat later, etc, and it appears to be even slightly older with its golf than Myopia.

Still today Aiken, S.C. is one of the really prominent winter stations of the eastern horse world. Another and more recent one is Ocala, Florida.

And we also have another name of perhaps an early golf pro/designer who obviously helped them out over a very extented time---eg James Mackrell.

[Mike Cirba]

JC Jones,

Thanks for the additional information on Palmetto.

That's a club I've been hoping to get to for a long time, as is Kebo Valley.   

Leeds to me seems like the first guy in this country who really started using interesting architecture like optional diagonal carries, and I know he did a lot of study of the great courses abroad.   

I also am absolutely in love with his low profile greens....Myopia is very similar to Garden City in that regard, only on more interesting, varied landforms.   

I'm still not sure why we see so little of that very cool, low-impact feature in modern design? 

[TEPaul]

A 1900 New York Times articles says Palmetto's golf professional James Mackrell was a Boston professional who went to Palmetto and then to the St Louis CC. I suspect that indicates he was at St Louis in the summer months and Palmetto in the winter months.

[Mike Cirba]

Not sure the source of this information, but my 1974 (pre Weeks book) copy of "Great Golf Courses of the World", by William Davis and the editors of Golf Digest states;

"It was in 1894, however, that the club's first nine golf holes, measuring only 2,050 yards, were laid out by three club members, R. M. Appleton, T. Watson Merrill, and A. P. Gardner."'

"In 1896 Herbert C. Leeds, a club member and its best golfer, laid out on another site the nine holes that form the basis for today's course (the first nine holes were eventually abandoned).   It was 2930 yards long and was shortly afterwards altered again."

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