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Tom MacWood

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Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #900 on: December 17, 2010, 08:22:48 PM »
Yes.

DMoriarty

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Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #901 on: December 17, 2010, 10:09:24 PM »
Jeffrey "Miss Manners" Brauer,

Another unsolicited, condescending, and hypocritical lecture about all the things you don't like about me and my posts?  Who do you think I am, your ex-wife?  

Your blanket disregard of the reports about Campbell having laid out the course is, in my opinion, unjustified.  There were multiple reports, and they included details about the tournament and course, thus strongly suggesting that the information in the articles came from someone who knew what was going on.  Besides, THOSE CAMPBELL ARTICLES ARE THE BEST CONTEMPORANEOUS INDICATION WE HAVE OF WHO CREATED THE COURSE.  ACTUALLY THEY ARE THE ONLY CONTEMPORANEOUS INDICATION WE HAVE.

Is there a reason you will not take these reports seriously, other than that you don't like the contents?

____________________________________

Mike Cirba asked:
Quote
Since Weeks wrote in his book that Merrill, Gardner, and Appleton staked out the course after the snows melted in April 1894, I would ask you why you think he wrote that?

1. He didn't write that they "staked out the course."    He wrote that they "probably" marked the greens with pegs.   He didn't know if they did or not.  He was SPECULATING.  
2. He didn't write that this occurred in April.  He didn't say exactly happened.  But he seems to think it must have happened in early March, even BEFORE the March meeting.   This is inconsistent with your account, but again he seems to be speculating.

As for why he wrote what he wrote, how should I know? I have a theory about what might have happened, but the last thing we need is more speculation.  All I know is that it seems he was speculating on key points, and that most of his narrative could have logically followed from that single Bush quote, and his speculation conflicts with numerous contemporaneous reports.   As between speculation eighty years after the fact, on the one hand, or contemporaneous reports, on the other, I'll go with contemporaneous reports every time.  

And Mike, your newspaper reports don't even bolster, much less prove, Weeks' account.  If anything, the reports raise more doubt that they resolve.  You seem to think that you can cherry pick a few articles, and if they only partially contradict Weeks' account, then this is somehow proof that everything Weeks wrote is true.  But what of all the other articles that contradict Weeks' account?  And what of the contradictions and inconsistencies even within the articles on which you rely?  

Even if we set aside the KEY point that your articles TELL US NOTHING ABOUT WHO ACTUALLY CREATED THE COURSE, the articles - yours and others - are inconsistent with the Weeks account.

Quote
I mean, what bad sources could possibly exist that said Appleton, Merrill, and Gardner staked out a course after the snow melted, that they thought it would take three months to ready a course, and that the course opened in June of that year as the Weeks book recounts?

See how you just misrepresented what Weeks wrote again?  Weeks was speculating about them having staked out the course.    
« Last Edit: December 17, 2010, 10:11:35 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Travis Dewire

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Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #902 on: December 17, 2010, 10:59:58 PM »


If so, then Campbell probably laid it out when he was in town laying out Merion's original course.



http://www.walkercup.org/news/wilson.html


yeah buddy, keep trying. TEPaul is the BO$$

DMoriarty

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Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #903 on: December 17, 2010, 11:15:22 PM »


If so, then Campbell probably laid it out when he was in town laying out Merion's original course.



http://www.walkercup.org/news/wilson.html


yeah buddy, keep trying. TEPaul is the BO$$

Original course, Travis.  In Haverford, not Ardmore.

Maybe you should put down your pom poms and look it up.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #904 on: December 17, 2010, 11:33:23 PM »
David,

As condescending and hypocritical as you are, you are not nearly as bad as my ex!  Actually, when I think of how you treat us here, I don't think of my ex, but I do think of my two year old grandaugher (you) and her diapers (us)......

Listen, here is the difference I see between us.....

I don't dimiss those three newspaper articles at all and never have.  I just have not concluded that they are the definitive sources to rely on for a number of reasons.  Further, I believe all the articles, club records, club histories, etc. are probably mostly correct and am looking for a scenario that fits them all.

I believe there is a good reason why Myopia doesn't mention WC. I also believe that Bush, sitting down to write his remembrances of early golf at MH was writing with the intention of telling it like it was a year before he wrote it, and was not so addled as to mix it up.  I believe the newspapers got some sort of press release from MH and since it mentioned WC, that he had something to do with it.

Yes, you say you are looking for the "truth" etc., but I remind you that you rely on your "logic" to reach many conclusions, while demanding others supply verifiable facts.  Two recent examples among many are:

From TMac:

"Presumably they would have known at that meeting Willie was on his way. It makes little sense that the Squire & Co would head out to Hamilton to route a course (much less sod greens) when they knew an expert was on his way."

and from you:

I do know enough about Myopia to tell you that Willie Campbell would not have been credited with laying out the course if all he had done was some manual labor after the course was already laid out.

Where is TMac's verifiable proof that they were waiting for WC, or yours since Myopia didn't credit Willie with laying it out?  Why do we need to accept any of your arguments more than ours?  They all rely on speculation and that is all I have been saying.

Why is questioning the newspaper articles more ridiculous than questioning the club records (I know your contemporaneous theory, but see above) and why do you accept that it was possible for WC to be out there all summer when other recent reports have him teaching at Brookline every afternoon and also working on their course?

Of course, he could have done both, but he was definitely part time at Myopia if he was doing that other stuff.  Exactly what, we don't know, but I also believe there is no reason to have it both ways, because in those days, some folks did work with a gca, some did it themselves, and if they had the opportunity, like MH, to call in WC for a few handy answers, they did so.  There are some documents that suggest the members did it themselves, and you two seem hell bent to find ways to discredit them, by discrediting us, the early MH members, etc.

I have always said that the simple answer is usually the right one.  When I read your long explanations of why this or that can't mean what it appears to mean, but avoid the big picture (such as MH had 100 years and thousands of opportunities to mention Willie but didn't, I simply tend to believe the simple answer - that the members had some involvement because the members at the time said so.  

It did turn out that way at Merion, didn't it, despite years of you saying otherwise?  And it came down to you wanting more credit for them showing CBM their routings and having him "pick" which you want to say means he routed it.  And it was semantics, as I think it is here.  

As always, just my opinion, but if I read "three contemporaneous sources...." again, I may just puke all over my computer!  Good night.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

DMoriarty

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Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #905 on: December 18, 2010, 01:18:11 AM »
Miss Manners,

That is all you could come up as an example of my horrid logic?  My statement that Campbell wouldn't have been widely reported to have laid out the course if all he had done was some manual work after it was already laid out?  I can live with that logical leap.

You seem to have this idea that all facts are created equal and all analysis is created equal.  That is not the case.

As for the rest of your post, it is as if you are just making this stuff up as you go along.  Unidentified club records?   Bush wrote his recollections in 1895?  Press releases?  Campbell at Myopia all summer?  Campbell at the Country Club all summer?  Campbell part time at Myopia?  Unidentified documents indicate that members did it?  I tried to discredit early members?  

What are you talking about?  Every sentence moves further and further away what happened.   Same goes for the bit about Merion.  Your theories are not based in reality.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 01:22:16 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #906 on: December 18, 2010, 09:46:53 AM »
David,

Good morning.

About all I can say is "liberals and conservatives." We really don't see eye to eye.  BTW, I agree that perhaps not all evidence and reasoning is equal, I am simply disagreeing that yours is superior!

IMHO, whenever Bush wrote about what happened in the early evolution of the course in 1895-8(?) he wrote specifically to capture the history of the design of the golf course.  He didn't mention Campbell, which if WC was as famous as you say he was, would be like being at Ford Theatre and forgetting to mention that Lincoln was shot!

Yet a few posts back you wrote that them not mentioning Campbell was "consistent with" him designing the golf course. While it may not technically preclude it (another one of your faulty logic arguments) it doesn't sound consistent with it in any big picture way.  It always strikes me that the more anyone argues endless little details, the less likely it is that they can really see the big picture, and that is my opinion of you (as pertains only to this, since I don't know you)  Just my opinion, but one that has been borne out in lots of other situations.

I still suggest that IF there is no apparent mention of him in club records, either WC wasn't involved in a meaningful way, or he had some falling out causing him to be persona non grata at the club that would make them want to strike him from their records.  What other reason could there be?  I sincerely doubt they forgot the most famous pro in the world worked for them, but that seems to be what you want us to believe.

And we all know for a fact that you haven't seen the club records, which have to be a part of the story of what really happened.  So, the best you can say about your arguments about what happened there is that you are concocting the best story you can based on the documents you choose to use.  By definition, your version is incomplete and also suspect, no matter how many times you repeat it.

We are once again in the position of "if there are no new documents to review, then let's drop this until we have them" not much different than that other club you seemed to take an interest in changing their history.  Even then, I suspect we would disagree like politicians, but that is the way the cookie crumbles, I guess.    As always, I could be wrong.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 10:09:25 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #907 on: December 18, 2010, 10:07:21 AM »
Tom MacWood,

Per your request, please see the results of the Opening Day tournament at Myopia.   I find it interesting that all of the men, including Merrill, Appleton, and Gardner had established reasonably proficient handicaps at that point, 10, 6, and 18 respectively.




David,

I'm not sure why you say Weeks was speculating.   He made very declarative statements in many respects, and there are only three possible explanations;

1) He was correct and had source material we don't.

2) He was lying

3) He had erroneous source material.


About Appleton, he writes;

"He was also a pioneer of golf, having laid out a number of holes on his home acres and being chiefly responsible for introducing the game at Myopia and at the Palmetto Club in Aiken, South Carolina."

"In Massachusetts the game was played informally on private estates as early as 1892.   At Appleton Farm in Ipswich, six holes were laid out for the entertainment of the family and guests, and Colonel Francis Appleton recalled that sheep cropped the fairwasys and were kept off the putting greens by low wire netting such as enclosed a croquet lawn.   At Moraine farm on the shore of Wenham Lake, the Phillips family maintained a number of holes, as did the Hunnewells in Wellesley on their picturesque acres bordering the Charles River."

About the origins of the course he writes;

"It was fortunate that the man who suggested golf at Myopia was the newly elected Master of Fox Hounds, R. M. Appleton.   Bud Appleton was the indispensable go-between, so popular that he could placate the Hunt and practical enough not to minimize the difficulties.   When the snows melted in the spring of 1894, Appleton, with two fellow members, "Squire" Merrill and A.P. Gardner, footed it over the the Club acres, spotting the tees and pacing off the distance to provisional greens, probably marking them with pegs.  The opponents had protested that the ground was rough and the soil thin, both of which in part were true.   The natural advantages were the turf, which had been fertilized by generations of cattle, the rolling contour and the hills, so often requiring a blind shot, a pond, and the almost total absence of trees."

"Appleton and his partners reported to the executive committee that nine holes could be made ready for play in three months (presumably they made this report at the Executive Committee meeting in March 1894 after layinig out a proposed course - Comment Mine)  and the speed with which their recommendation was followed is evident in this terse entry in the Club records by Secretary S. Dacre Bush:"

"At a meeting of the Executive Committee about March 1894 it was decided to build a golf links on the Myopia grounds.   Accordingly, the grounds were examined, and in opposition from a number of members because the ground was so rough, nine greens were sodded and cut, and play began about June 1st, 1894.   Members and associates soon began to show much interest in the game and the first tournament was held June 18th, 1894.   About twenty-five entries.   Won by Herbert Leeds of Boston who was scratch.   Score, first round 58, second round 54.   Total 112.   Laurence Curtis made 63-59,- 122, W. B. Thomas 63-62 - 125, The second tournament was held on July 4th, 1894.   About twenty entries.   Won by Herbert C. Leeds, scratch 52-61 - 113."

"We know that this improvised links was on the grounds of the Club and those of our fellow member, Dr. S.A. Hopkins, to the north and east of the clubhouse.   Once the nine greens were sodded and cut, all that was needed for the tees were a level space, a box of sand, and a pail of water to moisten the pinch of sand on which the ball was placed.   Nature provided the hazards, and the Myopia rough was horrendous;  the fairways were cropped by sheep penned in a fold behind the stables.   But even from the beginning there was a treacherous slope to some greens which let the putt run, and a narrow domino width in others, difficult to approach..."

"A golf committee consisting of Appleton, Merrill, Bush, and Parker was responsible for the maintenance of the course that first summer and while the Club voted to bear the modest expense, a subscription was started for seeding and developing the holes on the ridge."


Much thanks to a kind soul who shall remain nameless, who was so gracious as to put a copy of the Weeks book in my possession yesterday.

« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 10:18:02 AM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

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Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #908 on: December 18, 2010, 10:26:39 AM »
I found this article from the October 7, 1999 Boston Globe written by Jim McCabe:

"They were gathered outside the entrance to The Country Club Sept. 24, not waiting to get into the Ryder Cup Matches, but preparing to pay tribute to one of the biggest winners of the event.

Willie Campbell.

Willie Campbell?

Yes, Willie Campbell, the first golf professional at The Country Club, that venerable piece of landscape in American golf. Campbell is given credit for the original design of this classic layout back in 1894 and while that alone is worth a significant spot in golf history, there is so much more to Campbell.

'An incredible man. A visionary, so ahead of his time,' said Brian DeLacey, who helped organize the tribute to Campbell. The timing was planned to coincide with the opening day of the Ryder Cup Matches and while DeLacey and Co. numbered a handful of spirited people, their purpose was no less passionate than the festivities going on inside the gates.

Perhaps because he was introduced to the game the old-fashioned way -- by carrying clubs -- DeLacey has the priceless gift of a caddie's eyes. He sees detail, understands the nuances of the game, and appreciates how the sport took its shape. All of which explains why, one day a few years ago, DeLacey found himself walking the golf course at Franklin Park (technically it is William J. Devine Golf Course) in Dorchester.

'Sitting right in the heart of a major city is this beautiful park space, a great golf course, and I wondered about how it got there, who put it there.'

The answer, discovered DeLacey, was Campbell. It tickled his interest and added fire to his wonderment. So the Jamaica Plain resident headed to libraries, pulled out reference books, and corresponded with golf historians.

Next thing he knew, he was off to Musselburgh, Scotland.

\ To golf historians, there are three important places when it comes to the birth of the game: St. Andrews, which needs no introduction; Prestwick, site of the first British Open; and Musselburgh.

There is documentation that golf was first played at Musselburgh in 1672, though historians speculate that Mary, Queen of Scots played there as far back as 1567. Musselburgh Golf Club dates back to 1774 and it is generally accepted that it is the oldest remaining golf course in the world.

It is also where Willie Campbell came from.

Born in 1862, Campbell broke into the game caddying for Bob Ferguson, British Open champ of 1880-82. Though he never won the world's oldest tournament, Campbell was a legendary golfer of his era, a fierce match play competitor, said DeLacey.

His research on Campbell and subsequent trip to Musselburgh fascinated DeLacey, so much so that he published a book, 'Battlefield of the Best: The Historic Golfing Glories of Musselburgh.' It was a labor of love. 'Certainly not done for financial reward,' said DeLacey, laughing.

Tracing Campbell back to Musselburgh brought DeLacey in touch with golf purists who treasured their special little town and its place in golf history. DeLacey was told that five British Open champions came from Musselburgh, including the legendary Willie Park Sr., who won the first event in 1860. There was also Willie Park Jr., Dave Brown, Mungo Park (Willie Sr.'s brother), and Ferguson.

Quite proud of this special note, those at the Royal Musselburgh Golf Club came up with an idea that would pay tribute to these giants of the game. And DeLacey, they agreed, would play a role.

DeLacey was invited to take part in A Celebration of Musselburgh Golfing Greats this past June and he was accompanied by Bob Lamprey of Center Harbor, N.H. Lamprey is Campbell's grandson, and proved invaluable to DeLacey's research.

The trip, said DeLacey, afforded Lamprey the opportunity to meet relatives, and provided incentive for DeLacey to do something locally to pay honor to the memory of Campbell. 'I think he's very important, a very special person to remember,' said DeLacey, who, in his book, helps trace Campbell's trip to America.

'He had studied under Old Tom Morris at Prestwick, but was offered the job at The Country Club.' Having decided to accept the job, said DeLacey, Campbell was offered a piece of advice in a letter from Thomas P. Ronaldson, who had helped secure his services.

'I have just received another letter from Boston impressing on me to see that you make no mention on your way across or on arrival that you have any engagement with anyone in America,' Ronaldson wrote to Campbell. 'I cannot too strongly impress this upon you and I feel sure you will take care.'

The concern, as DeLacey discovered in his research, was that another club would 'steal' Campbell from The Country Club during a time when golf clubs were becoming more prominent in America.

Members at The Country Club, among them Laurence Curtis, were impressed when, in 1894 upon his arrival in Brookline, Campbell accomplished two key goals: He extended the existing six holes to nine and he defeated the heralded professional at Newport CC, Will Davis.

Campbell's victory over Davis, Curtis would later write, 'was the first real golf any of us had ever seen.'

As golf professional and course designer, Campbell's spot in TCC history is reserved forever, though it was a brief tenure. DeLacey discovered that Campbell also served at Essex CC and had a hand in designing Myopia, too. But of the greatest intrigue to DeLacey was Campbell's move to what is now Franklin Park.

'Campbell was ahead of his time,' said DeLacey. "He believed that if golf were to become popular, city officials had to help encourage the game."

Holes had been in existence at Franklin Park for a few years before his arrival (there is documented history to the effect that golf was played Dec. 12, 1890) but until Campbell, in about 1896, the club had never had a golf professional. The sport was not being taught, not being handled with care, and on both fronts, said DeLacey, Campbell succeeded.

'He died, in 1900, at the age of 38, but deserves recognition,' said DeLacey, who noted that Campbell's wife, Georgina Stewart Campbell, succeeded her husband.

'She was the first lady golf professional in the United States.'

To honor Campbell, DeLacey and friends proceeded from the gates of The Country Club to Franklin Park. From there, they went to Forest Hills Cemetery, where Campbell is buried. Bagpipes were played, a few words were spoken, and the soul of the game, for one evening anyway, was alive."
« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 10:30:05 AM by Tom MacWood »

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #909 on: December 18, 2010, 10:37:50 AM »
Tom,

Thanks for sharing that excellent article.   It's interesting that DeLacey claims he found evidence that Campbell "had a hand in designing" Myopia, which is what I believe the evidence shows, as well.

The fact that Campbell was a big "muni" guy makes him all the more appealing to me, personally.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #910 on: December 18, 2010, 10:43:01 AM »
Here is a link to Palmetto's website:

http://palmettogolfclub.net/history.htm

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #911 on: December 18, 2010, 10:45:54 AM »
Tom,

So Leeds had already solely designed Kebo Valley and done design work at Palmetto before becoming a member of Myopia?   

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #912 on: December 18, 2010, 11:17:57 AM »

I'm not sure why you say Weeks was speculating.   He made very declarative statements in many respects, and there are only three possible explanations;

1) He was correct and had source material we don't.

2) He was lying

3) He had erroneous source material.


About Appleton, he writes;

"He was also a pioneer of golf, having laid out a number of holes on his home acres and being chiefly responsible for introducing the game at Myopia and at the Palmetto Club in Aiken, South Carolina."

"In Massachusetts the game was played informally on private estates as early as 1892.   At Appleton Farm in Ipswich, six holes were laid out for the entertainment of the family and guests, and Colonel Francis Appleton recalled that sheep cropped the fairwasys and were kept off the putting greens by low wire netting such as enclosed a croquet lawn.   At Moraine farm on the shore of Wenham Lake, the Phillips family maintained a number of holes, as did the Hunnewells in Wellesley on their picturesque acres bordering the Charles River."

About the origins of the course he writes;

"It was fortunate that the man who suggested golf at Myopia was the newly elected Master of Fox Hounds, R. M. Appleton.   Bud Appleton was the indispensable go-between, so popular that he could placate the Hunt and practical enough not to minimize the difficulties.   When the snows melted in the spring of 1894, Appleton, with two fellow members, "Squire" Merrill and A.P. Gardner, footed it over the the Club acres, spotting the tees and pacing off the distance to provisional greens, probably marking them with pegs.  The opponents had protested that the ground was rough and the soil thin, both of which in part were true.   The natural advantages were the turf, which had been fertilized by generations of cattle, the rolling contour and the hills, so often requiring a blind shot, a pond, and the almost total absence of trees."

"Appleton and his partners reported to the executive committee that nine holes could be made ready for play in three months (presumably they made this report at the Executive Committee meeting in March 1894 after layinig out a proposed course - Comment Mine)  and the speed with which their recommendation was followed is evident in this terse entry in the Club records by Secretary S. Dacre Bush:"

"At a meeting of the Executive Committee about March 1894 it was decided to build a golf links on the Myopia grounds.   Accordingly, the grounds were examined, and in opposition from a number of members because the ground was so rough, nine greens were sodded and cut, and play began about June 1st, 1894.   Members and associates soon began to show much interest in the game and the first tournament was held June 18th, 1894.   About twenty-five entries.   Won by Herbert Leeds of Boston who was scratch.   Score, first round 58, second round 54.   Total 112.   Laurence Curtis made 63-59,- 122, W. B. Thomas 63-62 - 125, The second tournament was held on July 4th, 1894.   About twenty entries.   Won by Herbert C. Leeds, scratch 52-61 - 113."

"We know that this improvised links was on the grounds of the Club and those of our fellow member, Dr. S.A. Hopkins, to the north and east of the clubhouse.   Once the nine greens were sodded and cut, all that was needed for the tees were a level space, a box of sand, and a pail of water to moisten the pinch of sand on which the ball was placed.   Nature provided the hazards, and the Myopia rough was horrendous;  the fairways were cropped by sheep penned in a fold behind the stables.   But even from the beginning there was a treacherous slope to some greens which let the putt run, and a narrow domino width in others, difficult to approach..."

"A golf committee consisting of Appleton, Merrill, Bush, and Parker was responsible for the maintenance of the course that first summer and while the Club voted to bear the modest expense, a subscription was started for seeding and developing the holes on the ridge."


Much thanks to a kind soul who shall remain nameless, who was so gracious as to put a copy of the Weeks book in my possession yesterday.


It reads like fiction. It is difficult to say where Weeks got his information. The fact that he did not quote from anything regarding the Squire & Co story leads me to believe it came from a previous club history...he was just repeating a previous story, similar to the case at Merion where it was almost copied verbatim. When discussing the laying out of the original nine there is no mention of minutes, no mention of newspaper articles, no mention of any contemporaneous materials. He has no knowledge of Campbell, he has no idea when White worked at the club, and very little information on John Jones's background. He has no general sense of how golf developed in Boston around 1894, and the strong roll Campbell played in that development. He can only speculate on the make up of the original course. His information on the altering of the original nine is contradictory and confusing. He does not know the precise date of the Annual meeting in 1894. He doesn't know when Leeds joined the club. I don't put a lot of stock in Weeks' account.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #913 on: December 18, 2010, 11:38:41 AM »
Tom,

So Leeds had already solely designed Kebo Valley and done design work at Palmetto before becoming a member of Myopia?   

Leeds designed Kebo Valley in June of 1894; that course was replaced in 1898. I'm not sure when he was involved in the design of Palmetto.

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #914 on: December 18, 2010, 11:47:25 AM »
Tom,

I don't know...it seems to me that all of the evidence that has surfaced since this thread was resuscitated supports Weeks, at least circumstantially.

Prior, you seemed to want to paint the three members as incompetent nincompoops but the picture of them that has since surfaced indicates they were all well-established golfers at that time, even called "experts" prior to the opening of the course.  We also now know that 2 of the three were appointed to a subcommitte to bring golf to Myopia that spring and the third was physically in Hamilton at that time.  We've also learned the Dacre Bush was indeed "Secretary", of the golf committee.

So, it seems we've learned a lot since this thread was pushed back up by David, and although we don't know all of the details, what is being flushed out seems to support Weeks telling as well as Campbell's involvement on some level,

Btw, your mention of the first Merion history book should at least acknowledge the fact that the author noted repeated visits he made to read the Merion Cricket Club minutes, which formed the basis of his very factual account, and which to me should be the fundamental, requisite starting point of any serious investigation into a course or club's architectural history.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 12:23:53 PM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #915 on: December 18, 2010, 11:59:28 AM »
Tom,

I don't know...it seems to me that all of the evidence that has surfaced since this thread was recusitated supports Weeks, at least circumstantially.

Prior, you seemed to want to paint the three members as incompetent nincompoops but the picture of them that has since surfaced indicates they were all well-established golfers at that time, even called "experts" prior to the opening of the course.  We also now know that 2 of then were appointed to a subcommitte to bring golf to Myopia that spring and the third was physically in Hamilton at that time.  We've also leared the Dacre Bush was indeed "Secretary", of the golf committee.

So, it seems we've learned a lot since this thread was pushed back up by David, and although we don't know all of the details, what is being flushed out seems to support Weeks telling as well as Campbell's involvement on some level,

Btw, your mention of the first Merion history book should at least acknowledge the fact that the author noted repeated visits he made to read the Merion Cricket Club minutes, which firmed the basis of his very factual account.

What new evidence?

If you recall this thread was pushed up because the Tweedie thread was being thrown off the tracks. When I asked the question who wasn't using geometric features in the 1890s TEP gave us Leeds, which was later proven to be wrong.

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #916 on: December 18, 2010, 12:14:25 PM »
Tom,

Ignore it all you want, but the news articles I unearthed and posted here in recent "Weeks" do circumstantially support his account.

As regards Leeds' work at Palmetto, this is from the course history you posted the link for;

After the first four holes were constructed in 1892, Herbert Leeds, who also built Myopia Hunt Club in Boston, laid out the remainder of the initial nine holes.  Palmetto was expanded in 1895 to 18 holes with the completion of the second nine holes that had been designed by Leeds and James Mackrell, Palmetto’s first golf professional.

If that work was done before 1896, we know it was before Leeds was a member at Myopia.   Add in his design of Kebo Valley and it indicates he had well established architectural experience prior to joining Myopia.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #917 on: December 18, 2010, 12:18:47 PM »

Ignore it all you want, but the news articles I unearthed and posted here in recent "Weeks" do circumstantially support his account.


Specifically which articles are you referring to?

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #918 on: December 18, 2010, 12:49:57 PM »
Jeff Brauer,

Again with the club records?    When are you and TEPaul going to quit pretending that you are relying on club records?   

We don't know when Bush wrote what he wrote, and we don't know whether or not he mentioned Campbell. 

It is not liberal vs. conservative, unless you mean that one of those is trying to ground their opinions in reality, and the other just making up facts to fit with their desired outcome.

So far as I can tell we have multiple contemporaneous reports of Campbell laying out the course, and other reports of when it was laid out that contradict Weeks story.    Against that we have a club history written eighty years later.
___________________________________________

Mike Cirba,

The fourth option is the most obvious one.  Weeks may have had what he thought was a factual skeleton of what happened and he tried to come up with an interesting narrative, and filled in the details as he went along.   Think of the various accounts that have been written about early golf in America that have done the same.   They are interesting and generally may capture the time, but many of the details must be taken with a grain of salt.   They are legends, as much historical fiction as history.

As for your articles, Mike, give us a break. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #919 on: December 18, 2010, 01:31:29 PM »
David,

I have given you both a break but I do have to wonder why it took me to come here and unearth the other side of the story?

Wouldn't a searxh for truth already have found the articles on the members I posted?

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #920 on: December 18, 2010, 01:40:57 PM »
Again with the innuendo about our motives, Mike?  What happened to the "trusting nature" you are always touting?   I had never focused much on Myopia until this thread, and frankly I still haven't.   Three contemporaneous articles indicating Campbell laid out the course and a few after the fact is plenty for me, unless of course you can come up with something contradicting these.    So far you haven't even come close.   As for those particular articles you are so fond of . . .

Frankly I would never have even considered that the "expert golfers" article had anything to do with who might have laid out the course, because it doesn't have anything to do do with who laid out the course.   All it establishes was that those members were golfers, but we already knew that.   At least some of us did.

As for the committee article, I thought it had already been established that those guys were on a committee, but maybe I misremembered.  

And I was the one who first noted Gardner was in Hamilton in mid-April, not you.  

So stop with this latest witch hunt Mike.   I am not going to waste my time searching out irrelevant tangents.

« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 01:45:09 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #921 on: December 18, 2010, 02:13:37 PM »
Well David...I guess we're back to stalemate until such time as someone goes (back?) To look at the club records perhaps some day and let's us know what they say (again).

Til then, I'm glad you brought this thread back up because I've learned a lot and think we all know much more about the origins of Myopia.   I know I do.

TEPaul

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #922 on: December 18, 2010, 02:59:44 PM »
Tom MacWood:

In response to your Reply #912 and what you said in it about Weeks's book, about Weeks, and what he did not know about Myopia's history and by extension what Myopia did not know, I must say it is that very type of analysis of these subjects on your part that so completely marginalizes you with any club or anyone else with a modicum of commonsense, intelligence or logic regarding the things you've said on this website. And that Moriarty seems to be the only one on here who supports what you say, I suppose the same goes for him as well.

Anyone with a modicum of intelligence and analytical ability knows that just because someone like Weeks wrote a 151 page history book of a club's history over a century that included up to four different categories----eg fox hunting, polo, golf and tennis did not include in that book all the details of the history of the club or particularly all the details that someone like you may want to know certainly DOES NOT MEAN that was all Weeks or the club or anyone who knows about the details of the club knows about the details of their history. Weeks could have included all the details of the club and recorded by the club but that probably would've required a history book of 1,000 or 1,500 pages!

That anyone would actually draw that conclusion and then claim it on this website, as you have, without question goes to the very fundamental fact of why you are just not a good historical analyst at all and also why you seem to have no supporters of your position on this website, and no supporters or believers anywhere else, with the possible exception of David Moriarty. That is not saying much about your position and opinion of Myopia, Weeks or his history book, and frankly the very same thing goes for what you've said constantly about Merion, its history, its history book and its writer, Desmond Tolhurst.

In what you have said a number of times on this website about both clubs, their history books and their writers, you attempt to make it look like if something is not and has not been actually seen by you therefore it basically cannot exist or be true!! Any third grader with a decent mind and education can tell that is both remarkably faulty and fallacious reasoning and thinking or a singular lack of analytical ability or intelligence or both.

You constantly ignore this fact and this reality on here when it is pointed out to you, and from long term experience with you on here I would not expect that to change now. It seems you think if you constantly ignore it and keep saying the opposite that eventually someone might believe you or be persuaded. That is not likely to happen and to the extent these kinds of opinions and claims of yours are aired on this website will be about the same extent this website becomes marginalized too with a number of these important golf clubs who might happen to notice GOLFCLUBATLAS.com and its DG.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 03:06:53 PM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #923 on: December 18, 2010, 04:18:24 PM »
TEP
You might want to look in the mirror. The reason for all the speculation about Weeks is due to the fact it has become increasingly clear you just made up the story about the 'board minutes'. Its more an indictment of you than Weeks.  And sadly its not the first time you've gone down this road. You've done it before and you will probably do it again. Whatever it takes to preserve these legends you've became so attached to.

By the way I did find mention of the golf course at Appleton Farms in a news report from October, 1894. So we know its at least that old.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 04:20:31 PM by Tom MacWood »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #924 on: December 18, 2010, 04:50:18 PM »
Well David...I guess we're back to stalemate until such time as someone goes (back?) To look at the club records perhaps some day and let's us know what they say (again).

Til then, I'm glad you brought this thread back up because I've learned a lot and think we all know much more about the origins of Myopia.   I know I do.

If anyone ever does get a look at Myopia's records and if they report on what they say, I sure hope that he or she is more reliable than the person who claimed to have done so before.  

Meanwhile, if we strip away all the posturing, insults, and indignation, I think we are left with what follows:

1. The only contemporaneous accounts which have thus far been brought forward and which directly address the issue are those multiple newspaper articles indicating that Willie Campbell laid out the course, and other articles indicating that this must have occurred after mid-May 1894.  

2. We also have one report by a club member, published three years after the fact, which indicated that Bush and Parker laid out the course.

3. While Appleton, Merrill, and Burnham were reportedly on a sub-committee charged with bringing golf to Myopia, and while these men and Gardner were all golfers, no one has brought forward any contemporaneous reports indicating that Appleton, Merrill, and Gardner laid out the original course.

4. Over eighty (80) years after the fact, Weeks wrote that, in what Weeks seems to think was early March 1894, that Appleton, Merrill, and Gardner paced off the course and "probably" marked it off with pegs. Unfortunately, Weeks did not explain from where he got this information.  While Weeks was obviously speculating about how these three "probably" marked the greens with pegs, it is unclear whether Weeks had a source for the rest of the information or whether it is simply his best effort at explaining what he thinks "probably" happened.  Weeks did include one quote from S. Dacre Bush, mistakenly identified as the Club Secretary, but the Bush quote does not address who laid out the course.  

So far as I can tell, that is about where we stand.  
« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 06:43:27 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

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