[DMoriarty]

"Did you really get this information from contemporaneously created club records?"

I did.   

"Or did you just make that up?"

Not at all.


But I should ask what's up with you on this thread? You've never been to Myopia, you know nothing about it; you do not have nor  have you ever read Weeks's history book and all it seems you know about Myopia and its history is what's said in a couple of newspaper articles in 1894 which could mean and probably does mean that Campbell did some manual labor on Myopia just after he got off the ship after the golf course was routed with tees and fairways and greens sited and sodded by those three members Weeks specifically mentioned from the records of the club at the time----a time before Campbell even got to America. Why would anyone want to discuss any of this with you? You don't know anything about any of it.

You still don't know much of anything first-hand about Merion either, so what's up with YOU?

I do know enough about Myopia to tell you that Willie Campbell would not have been credited with laying out the course if all he had done was some manual labor after the course was already laid out.

[Tom MacWood]

Not sure if this is relevant to the issue of the number of reported courses (including estate courses) in MA during those years.

The following is from December 1897.

MASSACHUSETTS LINKS.
PROVIDING that nothing happens to prevent
pending negotiations there will be two eighteen hole
links in Massachusetts next season. The
clubs now preparing for such courses are the
Myopia Hunt Club and the Cambridge Golf
Club. This a healthy sign for the game in this
vicinity which has been christened the "hot-
bed of golf.   A daily paper of Boston recently
gave a list of two dozen links within twenty-five
miles of that city and this list did not include all.
There are private links enough to swell the
number to two score, all flourishing clubs. Then
to go through the state this number would be
increased to close to one hundred, and the
membership would run well into the thousands.
So much for golf in the State ot Massachusetts.

Campbell was responsible for the new course at Cambridge. There is no doubt Leeds is responsible for expanding Myopia to 18, but did he receive any help?

[TEPaul]

"I do know enough about Myopia to tell you that Willie Campbell would not have been credited with laying out the course if all he had done was some manual labor after the course was already laid out."



You do, and what is that you know? Isn't it that you believe "laid out" means to build something? Isn't that manual?

And credited by what; a single line in a couple of newspapers? Why not the club too?
 

[TEPaul]

deleted; post on wrong thread, unless Shinnecock's Willie Davis, Willie Dunn and Charlie Thom also designed Myopia. 

[D_Malley]

TEP
I believe that Phila. Cricket claims to be the oldest sporting club in the country, dating back to it's inception in 1854.  It was formed initially as a cricket Team which did not have a home pitch for several years.   

[TEPaul]

D. Malley:

Good point there. Frankly, I didn't know that or if I did I forgot it. Actually there is a club around here, albeit it not a sporting club, that for some reason claims to be the oldest continuous club in the same place in the English speaking world. It's technically called the "State and Schuykill" and is informally called the "Fish House." I think they say they go back to the 17th century which would make them something like 350+ years old.

That's what they claim although I suppose some have questioned it or challenged it.

Some say around the end of the 19th century they had the best 1 1/2 hole golf course in America and I've heard there's an old  article extant from the Trenton Town Crier and Weeper newspaper that says Willie Campbell actually laid it out.

[DMoriarty]

You do, and what is that you know? Isn't it that you believe "laid out" means to build something? Isn't that manual?

And credited by what; a single line in a couple of newspapers? Why not the club too?

TEPaul, that you have to resort to misrepresenting my position speaks volumes about yours.

Some say around the end of the 19th century they had the best 1 1/2 hole golf course in America and I've heard there's an old  article extant from the Trenton Town Crier and Weeper newspaper that says Willie Campbell actually laid it out.

If so, then Campbell probably laid it out when he was in town laying out Merion's original course.

[Mike Cirba]

I do know enough about Myopia to tell you that Willie Campbell would not have been credited with laying out the course if all he had done was some manual labor after the course was already laid out.

David,

That may well be true, but I don't think it's necessarily true.  

Depending on what may have been involved physically in "laying out" the course for Myopia, such as the creation/building of greens, etc., it may very well have been a noteworthy endeavor that was mentioned in the press, especially as Campbell was a new, celebrated arrival on these shores, and the club may have been appreciative, as well.

Truth be told, I see it something like this....

Cut to a Myopia Hunt Club membership meeting, as a buzz of discussion grows louder and more fervent and argumentative...

"You mean we can't ride on the land across the hill anymore?"

"Those fellows are slightly addled...what kind of British game are they tinkering with now?"

"We won't injure the hounds...the balls only fly a limited distance"..

"How much money did you say the sod will cost?"

Cut..to the wretched sound of fingernails scratching a blackboard....the arguments slow...and then stop, and all eyes turn to the back of the room.

In a brown topcoat, looking unshaven and perhaps having taken a pop or two prior, sits big Willie Campbell, speaking in a heavy Scotch brogue, which contrasts like sandpaper against the refined aristocratic somewhat practiced linguistics practiced predominantly in the room...

"Y'all know me. Know how I earn a livin'   They call me a "clubmaker", but I can do a lot more.

I'll build this course for ya, but it ain't gonna be easy... Big course. It's not like going down to some mamby-pamby estate course with 3 or 6 holes bad holes on it.   You fellas are lookin' for a championship course...something for y'all to be proud of...to show off to your rich friends.

This course project - it'll swallow ya hole if you don't know what you're doin'.   L'il shakin', l'il tenderizin', down ya go.   It'll cut up and divide your membership into little pieces quicker than a shark.

Now we gotta do it quick, that'll bring back....the members, that'll put all your club busineesses on a payin' basis.

But it's not gonna be pleasant!   We'll need some good horseshit, and some foreign laborers working around these parts for the next few months.   Some of the work on the hills might even get dangerous...a fella can slip and have a bad fall....get laid out...not able to make any clubs for awhile if you catch my drift..

I value my neck a lot more than 3000 bucks chief! I'll look over the property for three, but I'll build it.. get it ready for play... for ten!

Now you gotta make up your minds. Gonna play golf and ante up? Or ya wanna play it cheap, be playing on bare turf the whole summer. I don't want no volunteers; I don't want no mates. There's too many captains on this North Shore. Ten thousand dollars
for me by myself. For that you get the greens, the tees, the whole damn thing."



Myopia: "Thank you very much Mr. Campbell. We'll, uh, we'll take it under advisement."

[TEPaul]

"If so, then Campbell probably laid it out when he was in town laying out Merion's original course."


Yes, indeed, and I really like that word "probably." Tomorrow "probably" will probably be gone and you and MacWood will claim you have established "verifiable proof" of it, and that anyone who disagrees is dreaming or speculating or they must offer you some supporting documentation to establish that it is not impossible or some such bizarre logic and argumentation.

[Mike Cirba]

Campbell was responsible for the new course at Cambridge. There is no doubt Leeds is responsible for expanding Myopia to 18, but did he receive any help?

Tom MacWood,

Other contemporaneous articles mention that Boston will now have three 18 holes courses, and mention that Campbell laid out the eighteens at Cambridge and TCC.   The articles also mention that Myopia is making preparations for an 18 hole course, but don't mention Campbell in that regard.   If he was involved in creating the 18 hole course at Myopia, don't you find that strange?

BTW...do you still hold to the belief that the news article you mentioned that listed the courses in and around Boston and didn't mention Appleton's estate course as proof that he didn't have/build one before 1894?    The article I posted seems to say that the news article you referenced was woefully incomplete.

"A daily paper of Boston recently
gave a list of two dozen links within twenty-five
miles of that city and this list did not include all.
There are private links enough to swell the
number to two score, all flourishing clubs."

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

Very funny in post 882!

Two questions, if I may:

The reports mentioning Squire, et al laying out the course...if they don't come from Weeks, where exactly did they come from? I just don't recall.

From your earlier post on Bush and the Green Committee minutes, I would presume that there was no golf committee in 1894 because golf just started and then they felt they needed one for 1895 because it became popular.  As such, I think its likely that they were appointed late 1894 or early 1895 and this "club record" was their first annual report of activity covering the previous year, which included building the course, etc.?  If so, he could certainly remember what happened the year before and was specifically recording it for history, so would make an effort to get it right, no?

And yet, for some, this cannot be considered an accurate report of events that we can rely on?

I can't see it, frankly, but if others really think this, then it must be like libs and conservatives debating and certain belief sets are strongly tied together in the thought processes of both that the other just can't understand.

[Tom MacWood]

Campbell was responsible for the new course at Cambridge. There is no doubt Leeds is responsible for expanding Myopia to 18, but did he receive any help?

Tom MacWood,

Other contemporaneous articles mention that Boston will now have three 18 holes courses, and mention that Campbell laid out the eighteens at Cambridge and TCC.   The articles also mention that Myopia is making preparations for an 18 hole course, but don't mention Campbell in that regard.   If he was involved in creating the 18 hole course at Myopia, don't you find that strange?

BTW...do you still hold to the belief that the news article you mentioned that listed the courses in and around Boston and didn't mention Appleton's
estate course as proof that he didn't have/build one before 1894?    The article I posted seems to say that the news article you referenced was woefully incomplete.

Mike
Does the article mention Leeds? I've found numerous articles and sources that list the courses in the area (club and private), and I have yet to find any mention of Appleton's.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Not the one that mentions Campbell laying out 18 hole courses at Cambridge and TCC, (it says simply after mentioning Campbell specific to the other courses that "preparations are underway" at Myopia) but one I'm hoping to post after I get it scanned which describes the 1898 US Open course in detail mentions Leeds in the very first paragraph, although somewhat obliquely;

"Not content with its fame acquired on the polo field and in hunting annals, the Myopia Hunt Club seeks new laurels this year, in golf.  It is not surprising that so many of our hunt clubs, like Meadowbrook and Myopia, have taken up golf.   They have ample grounds for golf courses, and in their membership may be found golfers of the first class in America.   Foxhall Keene and Herbert C. Leeds are as well known as hunt club men as they are to the golfers of the country."

Again, nothing to do with specific authorship, but his prominence in a two page US Open preview article detailing each hole on the course seems noteworthy.

Jeff,

I don't know those specifics of the records but would agree with your take on this in terms of what would seem to make the most sense.

I'm sure Tom and David do not, but I think your Liberal/Conservative analogy is pretty spot on, as well.

Glad you enjoyed the attempt at humor!

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

When you say you see no mention of the Appleton course, then I presum you dicount Weeks mention of it?  That is fine, but Weeks did mention it on page 30, albeit I agree we don't know his source for putting it in the book and he estimates the date of 1892.  But he clearly means those courses preceded the first four country clubs, I think.

Mike C,

The funny thing is I think all on the club record side have acknowledged that the newspaper articles strongly suggest that Willie C did have something to do with it, and you and I have opined that they called him in as an expert in something after getting started.  David has admitted that the Bush recollections are surely generally correct and yet a sometimes bitter debate continues. 

I have to believe it is personality and animosity based, but then, what do I know?  As I said very early on in this reguritation of the thread,  its more of the same old same old, one side believing we trust club records, the other side believing we should trust the old gossip columns/newspapers.  Again, like the current political climate, it seems like the middle road guys have no chance to make headway in this argument.

I am off for a while, but fully expect a lecture on how I shouldn't be lecturing anyone, even though I just made a bipartisan observation.

[DMoriarty]

The reports mentioning Squire, et al laying out the course...if they don't come from Weeks, where exactly did they come from? I just don't recall.

Who said this information didn't come from Weeks?   Weeks speculated that they "probably" used pegs to mark of the greens.  It seems TEPaul just . . . ummm . . . let's say extrapolated from there, claiming that according to S. Dacre Bush, they definitely staked out the course around March 1, 1894.   As to why he so "extrapolated" well you will have to ask him that.  

So far as I know there are NO CONTEMPORANEOUS ACCOUNTS OF MEMBERS STAKING OUT THE COURSE AROUND MARCH 1, 1894.   But if there are any I'd love to hear about them.

From your earlier post on Bush and the Green Committee minutes, . . .

Green Committee minutes?  On what basis do you claim there were "Green Committee minutes."  Weeks said the quote was an entry by Club Secretary Bush into the club record.  He was obviously mistaken about whether Bush was Secretary, yet TEPaul claimed he had read the Club Secretary Bush's contemporaneous entries into the CLUB MINUTES.   So far as I know, not even TEPaul ever claimed to have seen "Green Committee minutes" (although I wouldn't be surprised if he had a sudden recollection of it) and so far as I know, neither did Weeks.   While TEPaul apparently doesn't understand this, we cannot just make things up or misrepresent the source material to suit our needs.

I would presume that there was no golf committee in 1894 because golf just started and then they felt they needed one for 1895 because it became popular.  As such, I think its likely that they were appointed late 1894 or early 1895 and this "club record" was their first annual report of activity covering the previous year, which included building the course, etc.?

There was a report of a sub committee being formed to bring golf to Myopia, but Bush was not listed as on that sub committee.    As I have said above a few times, the Bush quote may well have come from a later report, but a later report is obviously not a recording of events as they occur, and therefore should not necessarily be shrouded in the same assumption of reliability.  That said, if the Bush quote was a later report, I have no reason to doubt that it would have been generally accurate.

The 1894 Executive Committee Meeting reportedly took place in Boston in March, so if that was about when those meetings occurred, then the Bush "report" (if that is what it was) may have been from a meeting in March of 1895 (if for example, the sub committee on bringing golf to Myopia reported to him (he was a "Steward") and then he to the board.) Or it could have been his report from the 1895 Golf Committee which would likely have been at the meeting around March of 1896.

Or it may not have been a "report" but something like the piece written by Bush that MacWood mentioned earlier.

If so, he could certainly remember what happened the year before and was specifically recording it for history, so would make an effort to get it right, no?

I think I made the point above that he probably had some knowledge of what is in the quote, but we certainly cannot conclude it was firsthand knowledge.  Aside from the tournament info, it seems only a general and terse summary of what happened.  

And yet, for some, this cannot be considered an accurate report of events that we can rely on?

You can rely on it all you like.   But to what end?  The Bush quote did not address who laid out the course!  

I can't see it, frankly, but if others really think this, then it must be like libs and conservatives debating and certain belief sets are strongly tied together in the thought processes of both that the other just can't understand.

The funny thing is I think all on the club record side have acknowledged that the newspaper articles strongly suggest that Willie C did have something to do with it, and you and I have opined that they called him in as an expert in something after getting started.  David has admitted that the Bush recollections are surely generally correct and yet a sometimes bitter debate continues.

The "bitter debate" does not at all hinge upon whether the Weeks' Bush quote is reliable.  Reliable or not, the Bush quote is entirely consistent with the reports in the paper that Campbell laid out the course at Myopia.  

It doesn't really matter if everything in the Bush quote is accurate or not, because IT DOES NOT ADDRESS WHO CREATED THE GOLF COURSE.   Even if everything in the the quote was 100% accurate - and it way well be - IT STILL DOES NOT TELL US WHO CREATED THE GOLF COURSE.  

There was some debate about whether there was an entry into the "minutes" indicating that AMG staked out the course in early March, but it seems that TEPaul was  . . . how shall I put it? . . . confused about that.

So I am not sure what the debate is about now. I am still waiting for someone to explain how Mike Cirba's two articles and this Bush quote amount to anything indicating that AMG designed the course.  

I have to believe it is personality and animosity based, but then, what do I know?  As I said very early on in this reguritation of the thread,  its more of the same old same old, one side believing we trust club records, the other side believing we should trust the old gossip columns/newspapers.  Again, like the current political climate, it seems like the middle road guys have no chance to make headway in this argument.

You again misrepresent the issues involved.   What club records?  All we have is the Bush quote, which does not address who laid out the course, regardless of whether it was a "record" or not.  

So let's not pretend it is about trusting club records.

And as for the middle guys having "no chance," it is more like the middle guys have "no facts."  You just cannot split the difference because you think that might be a desirable or convenient outcome, and I haven't seen anything suggesting that AMG staked out the course in early March.   Except for TEPaul's and Weeks speculation, of course.    

________________________________________

Mike Cirba, Jeff Brauer,  whoever,

Again . . .

WHAT, SPECIFICALLY, IS THE BASIS FOR CONCLUDING THAT AM&G LAID OUT THE COURSE AROUND THE FIRST OF MARCH, 1894.

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

I have read Weeks, at least pages 28-35 covering golf and see no mention of squire and the three supposedly different men who laid it out vs the three that maintained it. (Appleton, Merrill, Bush and Parker)  I wonder if it came from the earlier history, club minutes as seen by TePaul or...(sigh) as you imagine, it was made up.

I did notice that in discussing the long nine Weeks quotes Club Secretary Bush.  That suggests that maybe he did do an architectural summary in 1896 and that is where Weeks draws his words.  It also mentions that the recollection was in a section called "Hope over Experience" suggesting it was a full reminiscense after the long 9 was built, but also suggesting that they did it in house, according to Bush, because if they had used Campbell, it would have been using an experienced person, no?

You are likely right that it was not the 1895 golf report, at least that is what I think for now.

All that said, your tone still implies that we must accept what you say as gospel, and tell us that over and over again, such as in you know just how Myopia Club members thought in 1896 and that allows you and you alone to figure out what happened.  You really don't have any facts either, and spend most of your posts discrediting others questions and any source not consistent with your gossip columns (whose writers probably never ventured out on the property either but took a wire report or mailed press release as gospel) as unreliable.

As to the animosity, I think your tone sets most of the negative experience here.  Basically, if we ask a simple question, who the hell likes your courtroom cross examination of every little point?  No one, that is who! That said, TePaul and the rest of us also contribute mightily.  It does take two to tango, and I realize that.

[Phil_the_Author]

Jeff,

"It does take two to tango, and I realize that..."

Dunt, Dunt, Dunt, Dunt... Da, Da, Da, Da, Da... (add in your own music!

[Mike Cirba]

David,

I don't have the Weeks book nor do I have the Myopia club records.

Since Weeks wrote in his book that Merrill, Gardner, and Appleton staked out the course after the snows melted in April 1894, I would ask you why you think he wrote that?

I know you said something like "he used the only sources he had", but to make something up out of thin air seems to me to either be an outright lie or else he had a document that was erroneous.

What do you think he did?

The evidence I presented does bolster, if not prove Weeks' account.

It shows that 2 of the 3 men (Appleton & Merrill) were assigned to a subcommittee that spring to bring golf to Myopia.

We know the third man (Gardner) was in town at the same time.

We know that the local papers called them "experts" in the new game before the course at Myopia even opened.

We also know that Weeks told us Appleton had a course on his own property, which would/could account for their early proficiency in the game.

We know that the area for the golf holes was already located by mid May (even if the course had not yet been "laid out" yet, which to me is greater evidence that the term was meaning "construction to plans") as sheep were purchased to graze that area, and we know accounts stated you could watch play across the whole course from the high hill.   How could someone make that statement if the location of the golf holes had not yet been determined?!?

None of this is conclusive proof, but it certainly helps support the idea that the assigned members staked out the course prior and then built it with Campbell's help.  

I think the extreme, unsupportable position here is to simply ignore all that evidence, state that Willie Campbell did it all on his own, and then also believe that Weeks either made it up (lied) or had bad sources...  

I mean, what bad sources could possibly exist that said Appleton, Merrill, and Gardner staked out a course after the snow melted, that they thought it would take three months to ready a course, and that the course opened in June of that year as the Weeks book recounts?

I think the much more viable answer, by a factor of reason-ability of one-hundred-fold, is that both accounts are true, and again we just don't know how much each contributed to the final product.


Tom MacWood,

I went back and re-read some of this thread and wanted to ask you if you're now prepared to recant two of your previous claims;

1) You claimed that Merrill and Gardner did not even play in the opening day tournament.   Are you sure of that?

2) You claimed that the course could not be staked out prior to April 9th because at that point there was still 18 inches of snow on the ground.   Are you sure of that?

Thanks.

[Tom MacWood]

But I should ask what's up with you on this thread? You've never been to Myopia, you know nothing about it; you do not have nor  have you ever read Weeks's history book and all it seems you know about Myopia and its history is what's said in a couple of newspaper articles in 1894 which could mean and probably does mean that Campbell did some manual labor on Myopia just after he got off the ship after the golf course was routed with tees and fairways and greens sited and sodded by those three members Weeks specifically mentioned from the records of the club at the time----a time before Campbell even got to America. Why would anyone want to discuss any of this with you? You don't know anything about any of it.

Where did you come up with March 1 or early March as the time the course was routed? Buch was somewhat vague about the timing of the annual meeting when it was decided to build a golf course...sometime in March is what he said. The Annual meeting was on March 13 in Boston, as reported by the Boston Globe. Campbell was on his way to Boston in late March as arranged by WB Thomas, Myopia member. Presumably they would have known at that meeting Willie was on his way. It makes little sense that the Squire & Co would head out to Hamilton to route a course (much less sod greens) when they knew an expert was on his way.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

Can you answer my questions above?

I'd also ask, simply because I don't know, but why or how would the men in Boston know that Campbell was an "expert" in laying out courses at that time?   What courses of note had he designed before March 1894 that they would be familiar with?

Certainly they would have known him as a champion competitor, a professional with teaching skills, and as a club maker, but what courses of his were held in high repute by March 1894?

Thanks

[Travis Dewire]

http://books.google.com/books?id=oSjrZv0rOMQC&pg=PA139&dq=%22myopia+hunt+club%22+Willie+Campbell&hl=en&ei=CNELTd-NJYS8lQeOn_j6Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22myopia%20hunt%20club%22%20Willie%20Campbell&f=false

OT - about The Country Club, but it says Curtis and 2 others, added 3 holes late 1893 - taking the course from 6 to 9. Then it says Campbell was hired in 1894, to strengthen the course, add yardage, and bunkers.

Here is the wikipedia blurb on the design credit
The golf course itself grew in several stages, and so is not the result of any one architect. The first six holes were laid out by three club members in March 1893, and the following year the Scot Willie Campbell was brought in as club professional. He oversaw the expansion to nine holes that summer, and to a full 18 holes by 1899 following some land acquisition


I am starting to get some where....

[TEPaul]

"Since Weeks wrote in his book that Merrill, Gardner, and Appleton staked out the course after the snows melted in April 1894, I would ask you why you think he wrote that?

I know you said something like "he used the only sources he had", but to make something up out of thin air seems to me to either be an outright lie or else he had a document that was erroneous.

What do you think he did?"




Michael:

Regarding Myopia's account, those are the two true salient questions here on this thread, aren't they?  

Nota Bene:
Weeks did not write in "April, 1894 when the snow melted," he wrote 'When the snows melted in the spring of 1894,"

Week's also wrote, 'Appleton and his partners reported to the executive committee that nine holes could be made ready for play in three month,'..

Did Weeks just dream all that up; the three names, that they reported to the executive committee, the timing of the project they reported and all out of thin air or was he actually looking at something from the club when he wrote that?

That is the salient question on this thread, isn't it, or at least for what is described above as "the middle guys?"

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacWood,

I went back and re-read some of this thread and wanted to ask you if you're now prepared to recant two of your previous claims;

1) You claimed that Merrill and Gardner did not even play in the opening day tournament.   Are you sure of that?

2) You claimed that the course could not be staked out prior to April 9th because at that point there was still 18 inches of snow on the ground.   Are you sure of that?

Thanks.

Isn't that what Bush reported? According to the Boston Advertiser Leeds, Hopkins, Bacon, Curtis, Appleton, Norman and Motley played in that first event.

I don't recall saying the course could not steaked out prior to April 9th. You asked a question about the weather or snow, and I said there was 18 inches of snow on the ground April 9.

[Travis Dewire]

http://books.google.com/books?id=2uvSAAAAMAAJ&q=%22myopia+hunt+club%22+Leeds&dq=%22myopia+hunt+club%22+Leeds&hl=en&ei=ttkLTbHzIIX6lwec7sT_Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAzgU

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

What do you mean "isn't that what Bush reported?"?

There were about 25 players in the opening day tournament...would you like to see the results?

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