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TEPaul

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #750 on: December 13, 2010, 11:03:56 AM »
Mike:

I just don't know. I guess that is certainly possible. It's possible given that time and the way those early immigrant Scottish professional golfers worked back then that they did a little bit of a lot of things for a lot of people and clubs. It sure seems some of them never stayed anywhere long, certainly including Campbell and even White.

John "JacK" Jones came to Myopia in 1897 as their golf pro and greenkeeper and he stayed at Myopia for many years. He is certainly mentioned by the club records and by Weeks many times and very fondly. The reason the club never mentined Campbell and White only briefly is probably because they just weren't there long and the club didn't feel they did much of significance for them.

Tom MacWood may see it differently but he doesn't know anymore about Myopia than what a few brief newspaper articles said in 1894. And he doesn't seem to appreciate how much of a difference there is between what was there with that original nine in 1894 and what was there in 1900 that is basically the same routing and holes as today without taking into consideraton the bunkering of 1900.

But a pro who only played tournament golf for a club was not uncommon back then or frankly much later and until the beginning of the PGA TOUR which actually began around 1969-1970.

I was going to say a few days ago that when I get back up there I will see if I can take a look at some old financials of the club to see if they actually paid the likes of Campbell a salary or whether it appears he just gave lessons and was paid individually etc. If I see White on their payroll that could explain how long he was there and when. The same with Campbell if he ever was on their payroll.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #751 on: December 13, 2010, 11:22:20 AM »

Tom MacWood:

No, I do not have to admit that at all and either does Myopia.

First, I think what you need to consider a whole lot more is that Campbell just may not have been or at least may not have been considered by some of those people back then (viz. Myopia) to be anywhere near as big a deal as you think he was and as you have been saying on here he was!

Second, you have a few old newspaper articles that claim Willie Campbell laid out Myopia's original nine but what does that mean and when did they say it? A couple of weeks before the course opened for play and after the fact of a few tournaments! What happened before that and what do newspaper articles say about that? Nothing as far as I can see because the club obviously didn't feel like telling the newspapers anything when they began planning a course and those members laid it out. Furthermore do you think one could sod greens and have them in play in a couple of weeks? Did those newspaper articles explain what they meant when they reported Campbell laid it out? No they did not. Did they explain anything he did in detail? No they did not. Does that mean, in your logic, that those newspaper articles have holes in them too because they didn't go into detail?

Not to mention that Myopia recorded three men creating the layout of a golf course before Campbell first arrived in this country. You may want to just discount that because you've never seen it and probably never will but I'm not and either does Myopia, via Weeks or today.


The three reports that he laid out the course are from around the time the course opened and a couple of years later, which is what you would want and expect when trying to document a design:

"It has but few days since the new links at the Myopia Hunt Club were laid out by the professional Campbell, but so keen are the members of the club that the first open handicap golf match took place yesterday." ~~Boston Daily Advertiser 6/19/1894

"The new golf links recently laid out on the Myopia grounds by Willie Campbell, the professional player, were first used on Monday, and the grounds were crowded all day by the North Shore people who accepted invitations to witness the opening of this sport." ~~Boston Evening Transcript 6/23/1894

"It was Mr. WB Thomas, of the Myopia and Country club clubs, who having met him in Scotland, induced Mr. Campbell to come to this country as a professional instructor at the Myopia and the Country clubs. It was Mr. Campbell who laid out the course at Hamilton and Brookline, and taught most of the members of both clubs the mysteries of the game, and it was largely through the efforts of Mr. Campbell that golf secured such a hold on the people of Massachusetts." ~~St. Paul Globe 7/2/1902 (from an article and interview with Mrs. Campbell)

I think it is pretty clear what laid out meant in all these articles. Campbell laid out numerous course in New England, the UK and elsewhere, and I think you and Mike are the only ones holding out on what laid out means at Myopia. The board minutes apparently have no record of him laying out (whatever definition) Myopia, why is that? And as far as him being the professional at Myopia, as I said there are scores of contemporaneous reports (I'll list them if you have any doubts) and numerous obituaries that mention he was the pro at Myopia. Why don't the board minutes have record of this?

You've seen the board minutes, what other facts or information were you able to extract from them (other the Squire & Co designing the course)?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 12:12:19 PM by Tom MacWood »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #752 on: December 13, 2010, 11:28:00 AM »
Mike Cirba, Again my definition and understanding of the verb "to lay out" has remained the same.   The hypocrisy is all yours on this one.    We know that at Merion the course was laid out and built on the ground according to the plan determined determined by CBM and HJW.  But with many of these early pros the act of designing the course and laying out (marking out, staking out, marking off, etc.) was all done in the field.  I have written this dozens of times at least.  That is likely what happened here, unless of  there is some factual reason to believe that others designed the course.    But I have not seen anything close to that.  

All you have offered is an article noting that a sub-committee was formed and charged with bringing golf to Myopia.   They likely hired Campbell, did they not?Other than that you have offered plenty of sarcasm and insistence that it is all very clear, but I don't see it.  Not even close.  

Any FACTS that make this so clear?    

And why do you avoid my questions?  Here are just a few, so as to not overwhelm you:

If Gardner was to be involved in designing the course, then why was Burnham appointed to the committee, and not Gardner?

You have suggested that Willie Campbell must have laid out the course on the ground according the the member's design, yet you have also sarcastically dismissed the notion that the course was not laid out until after mid-May.    

In not after mid-May, when did Campbell laid out the course on the ground?   And if the course had already been staked out then what did laying out the course entail?  

_____________________________________________

Phillip,

While I can see that you and Mike are really enjoying your immature sniggering and lame attempts at mockery, it really doesn't do much for advancing the conversation or for the level of "graciousness and respect" on the thread.   It does, though, confirm the appropriateness of my earlier comments.  It is fascinating how comfortable you are lecturing others about their behavior, yet when it comes to yours you take critique rather poorly.

Turning again to the topic at hand.  

You overstate your case by suggesting that White was at Myopia for "a good part" of 1896, at least if you mean Myopia's golf season.   While he was reportedly Myopia's professional he was reportedly in Cincinnati on business in April, 1896.   At that time the Myopia golf season generally did not begin until mid to late May.  White or someone listed him as being attached to Myopia sometime before June 24, 1896, but we really don't know for sure when or by whom.   Presumably it was because White listed Myopia on his application but I can't say for sure.  Can you?

Maybe White was a no show at Myopia for the summer season, or that the club got sick him going back and forth to his other job(s) in Ohio, and Campbell was brought in for a last minute.   I don't know what happened, but there is something more to the story, surely.  

Regardless, TEPaul claimed the records indicated that White was at Myopia in 1896-1897.   Was he?   If not, then are the records wrong, or TEPaul?

_____________________________

Can anyone explain why TEPaul claims to know for certain that the course was staked out in the early spring 1894, but that Weeks is speculating about the same thing?




« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 11:32:08 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Phil_the_Author

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #753 on: December 13, 2010, 12:02:22 PM »
David,

If you truly wanted to "advancing the conversation or for the level of "graciousness and respect" on the thread" then when a reasonable request is made of you you wouldn't respond by stating "I don't give a damn what you want." You could have simply said no, yet you chose the low road.

In every comment I made to you or question asked I never once acted in the manner that you have and seem to want to portray for myself and others. I'm sorry you see no humor in my remarks to Mike or in his chuckling at them; they are though, after all, just YOUR REMARKS and no one else's.

Yet I'm the one with the problem. About what I'd expect you to say...

As you say, "Turning back to the topic at hand" you stated:

"You overstate your case by suggesting that White was at Myopia for "a good part" of 1896, at least if you mean Myopia's golf season."

I disagree. He was involved with Myopia through at least the end of June which is half the year. Half a year is a "good part" of to my mind and that is why I used that phrase.

"While he was reportedly Myopia's professional he was reportedly in Cincinnati on business in April, 1896.   At that time the Myopia golf season generally did not begin until mid to late May.  White or someone listed him as being attached to Myopia sometime before June 24, 1896, but we really don't know for sure when or by whom.   Presumably it was because White listed Myopia on his application but I can't say for sure.  Can you?"

Sorry David, but you are trying to make a black pot look red with this line of reasoning. One must take the information in the article at face value otherwise one can't do the same when looking at any other article. You choose to say that Campbell designed Myopia because the newspaper accounts shown state that he "laid out" the course and therefor you are defining that in a certain manner. You are using a line of reasoning that has an arguable merit to it in that case. That is a far cry from saying that where an article that lists "Robert White, Myopia" may have been from an application written by someone else is far too much of a stretch to be given any serious consideration whatsoever. Your claim that he didn't play in the tournament because his name isn't listed in the results is another stretch as there are reasonable explanations for that ranging from his not qualifying for the final rounds to his withdrawing to the article simply not listing everyone who finished play. Do you know the names of everyone who began play on the first day of the tournament? If not, then you certainly can't state with any certainty whatsoever that he didn't participate. Am I saying that he did? NO! But I'm also not saying that he didn't since I only have your word on what the article states. Just as you take Tom Paul to task in your same post asking, "Regardless, TEPaul claimed the records indicated that White was at Myopia in 1896-1897.   Was he?   If not, then are the records wrong, or TEPaul?" I, too, am asking "David claimed the article indicated that White did not play in the July tounrament he was listed as having entered. Is that what happened? If not, is the newspaper account wrong is is David's interpretation of it?"
"Maybe White was a no show at Myopia for the summer season, or that the club got sick him going back and forth to his other job(s) in Ohio, and Campbell was brought in for a last minute.   I don't know what happened, but there is something more to the story, surely."

Did you read what I asked Tom Macwood on that subject above? 

Regardless, TEPaul claimed the records indicated that White was at Myopia in 1896-1897.   Was he?   If not, then are the records wrong, or TEPaul?

Actually, that is NOT what Tom Paul wrote. He stated that it was in the TIMEFRAME of 1896-7 OR 1895-7. This is important because it shows that he wasn't QUOTING from the records in that comment (my belief), but rather that he was writing from memory. So if White was not there in 1897 then he most likely rememberred it incorrectly. Before you make a big point out of that, just as White was involved with Cincinnati while working at Myopia as their official professional, he may very well have been involved at Myopia while being Cincinnati's official professional in 1897. That information may be in the Myopia records and so Tom's use of the 1897 date might actually be correct even if it was written out of memory. That is not an unreasonable possibility. There may have been work that he had undertaken for the club that he promised to come back for the following year. For example, we know that White was one of the best turf specialists in America, especially in the early years. It is entirely reasonable that they would have had him back in 1897 for the turf alone as those early years and clubs histories are filled with nightmarish tales of turf problems. The only way to say for certain is by examining Myopia's records themselves.

« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 12:33:19 PM by Philip Young »

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #754 on: December 13, 2010, 12:15:26 PM »
David,

As usual, you are wrong again.

That wasn't a "snigger".

It was an exasperated sigh.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TEP & the Flat Earth Society
« Reply #755 on: December 13, 2010, 12:24:42 PM »

Can anyone explain why TEPaul claims to know for certain that the course was staked out in the early spring 1894, but that Weeks is speculating about the same thing?


David
I don't know, but I do have a theory.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #756 on: December 13, 2010, 12:27:51 PM »
TMac,

I understand the sources saying Campbell laid it out. I thought there were two presented here, and did not know you had six.  That probably makes no difference, other than the fact that as per DM, the two newspaper accounts probably both came from club supplied information, and were probably copied word for word (or close, knowing the typical news reporter of today) so that might qualify as just one in some minds.  What are the others just out of curiosity.

I would also put some weight on the unattached report because is comes from the tournament list and thus the application forms of the players.  Thus, Willie Campbell himself probably thought of himself as unnattached when he applied.  Of course, that doesn't preclude him perhaps filling in later in the year, after the application was made to the tourney, at Myopia, and perhaps as noted, to replace White temporarily or until the end of the season when the club thought he might have defected to Cincy.  That bears some fleshing out, I think.

I still think the Weeks report of the members "footing" the property is also a valid source and should be considered.  The "probably" comment by Weeks was only referring to the exact method of marking the locations of greens, tees, whatever and we know it was all with minimal earthworks.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Phil_the_Author

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #757 on: December 13, 2010, 12:35:36 PM »
"Can anyone explain why TEPaul claims to know for certain that the course was staked out in the early spring 1894, but that Weeks is speculating about the same thing?"

The answer to that is YES. Unfortunately (for you) the answer then is that it is Tom Paul who can explain it if he so chooses. There is no reason to ask this of anyone else other than Tom...


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #758 on: December 13, 2010, 01:16:34 PM »
Phil, when it comes to you lecturing me on what I "need" to do, and misrepresenting my dealings with TomP and Mike, I really don't give a damn what you want.  That is honesty, not rudeness.

White was there through the end of June?  On what is that based?  What is the source and basis for the list which appeared in the New York paper on June 24?

I must take the article at face value or I cant take any article at face value?   Again with your strange tit-for-tat reasoning.  I take every article for what is and in the context it was written.  This includes considering the SOURCE OF THE INFORMATION IN THE ARTICLE.    

For example in the Advertiser article about the opening, there is quite a bit of information (such as the scores, the hole names, and approximately when the course was laid out) that must have come from someone involved, so when such an article states that Willie Campbell laid out the course, then it is reasonable to assume that the information came from the someone involved.    

Most of the NY article comes from a supposed well traveled yet an unnamed amateur with a definite Chicago bias and strong opinions about who will win the years USGA events.  Then there is a list of professionals who will probably play in a tournament that was a few weeks away.   In order to take the list of professionals and their clubs at "face value" we need to know a bit more about the SOURCE of the list, don't we?  Was this list from the USGA and based on the applicants?   If so, then the club affiliations would depend on when the applications were receive, would they not?  

And there you go again lecturing me on things I didn't write.  I don't know if White played in the tournament or not, but I have never seen his name listed as having played.   And again with the tit-for-tat logic?    TEPaul claims TO KNOW FOR CERTAIN THAT WHITE WAS THERE BASED ON CLUB DOCUMENTS CREATED CONTEMPORANEOUSLY CREATED WITH WHITES TENURE.   That is not comparable to my statement that I have never seen White in the results of the tournament.

I agree with you that we'd have to see Myopia's records to know what they say.   And except for TEPaul's claim that he has, we haven't seen them.  So why are all of you who haven't seen the records acting as if you know what is in those records?

___________________________________

As to definitely staking versus probably pegging, why can't I ask others?   You guys are the ones all putting such great faith in TEPaul's dubious recollections, so I would think you would have some idea of why TEPaul seems to know for certain that which Weeks could only speculate.  

Or perhaps then I should ask you why are you willing to believe TEPaul and not Weeks?  

_________________________________

Mike Cirba,

Will you please cut snottiness and try to productive answer my questions?  
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 01:21:14 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Phil_the_Author

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #759 on: December 13, 2010, 01:28:01 PM »
David,

"Phil, when it comes to you lecturing me on what I "need" to do, and misrepresenting my dealings with TomP and Mike, I really don't give a damn what you want.  That is honesty, not rudeness."

Sorry David, that may be honest but it is definitely rude.

Have a good day.


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #760 on: December 13, 2010, 01:49:44 PM »
Rude or not, that is how I feel about it Phil.   And I want you to know it, so as maybe you will take a look at yourself and stop with the unreasonable demands and misrepresentations.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 02:07:55 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #761 on: December 13, 2010, 02:06:22 PM »
The more I think about this, the more it comes down to one simple thing:

Do we take on faith what TEPaul claims?

In order to take on faith what TEPaul claims, we must:
1.  Ignore three separate contemporaneous accounts indicating that Campbell laid out the course.
2.  Ignore Mrs. Campbell's account that Willie Campbell laid out Myopia.
3.  Ignore the multiple contemporaneous accounts that Myopia had not been laid out as of mid-May 1894.
4.  Overlook the fact that Campbell was by far more qualified to plan and lay out a course than any of the members.
5.  Overlook the fact that those reportedly appointed to the sub-committee to bring golf to Myopia were all golfing at Brookline, where Campbell was the pro, well into May.
6.  Ignore the inconsistencies and oddities about TEPaul's version of what happened as compared to Weeks version, and the possible inconsistencies of both compared to contemporary reports.

And what has been offered to quell these concerns?  
1.  TEPaul's insistence, that as usual, he knows everything and if we want to know we should develop a relationship with the clubs.
2.  A few newspaper articles stating that a committee of Burnham, Merrill, and Appleton were charged with bringing golf to Myopia for the season.  
3.  A gossip column entry that referred to Appleton and Gardner as expert golfers, even though one was a decent beginner and one was a beginner.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 02:09:46 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Phil_the_Author

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #762 on: December 13, 2010, 02:15:27 PM »
David,

Your posting an artricle that you are quoting from so that we can actually see what it says rather than simply taking you at your word is an "unreasonable demand?"

Absurd brand of logic you have there.

And I haven't misrepresnted what you've stated.


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #763 on: December 13, 2010, 02:18:00 PM »
Phillip it is if the only reason you are doing so is because you falsely claim I have done the same.

It is also unreasonable for you to demand that I quell your curiosity about whether Robert White started the 1896 open but didn't finish.   Your the professional here, look it up if you want to know.

You have misrepresented what I have stated repeatedly.   To name two.

1.  I have made demanded that Tom and Mike post articles containing information that was readily available.  
2. I have never stated that White did not start the 1896 tournament, only that he wasn't listed among the competitors after the tournament after.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 02:23:13 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #764 on: December 13, 2010, 02:22:59 PM »
TMac,

I understand the sources saying Campbell laid it out. I thought there were two presented here, and did not know you had six.  That probably makes no difference, other than the fact that as per DM, the two newspaper accounts probably both came from club supplied information, and were probably copied word for word (or close, knowing the typical news reporter of today) so that might qualify as just one in some minds.  What are the others just out of curiosity.

What the hell are you talking about? I said I had at least six reports from four different sources that reported Campbell was the pro at Myopia in 1896. I have three reports from three different sources that reported Campbell laid out Myopia, and they aren't that similar so I'm not sure why you speculate they probably came from club supplied information. You can read them in post #751.

I would also put some weight on the unattached report because is comes from the tournament list and thus the application forms of the players.  Thus, Willie Campbell himself probably thought of himself as unnattached when he applied.  Of course, that doesn't preclude him perhaps filling in later in the year, after the application was made to the tourney, at Myopia, and perhaps as noted, to replace White temporarily or until the end of the season when the club thought he might have defected to Cincy.  That bears some fleshing out, I think.

You can put as much weight into the unattached report as you'd like. As I said he spent part of the early part of '96 in Philadelphia, and the golf season at Myopia started relatively late. As far as your speculation about White I wouldn't hazard a guess at this point.

I still think the Weeks report of the members "footing" the property is also a valid source and should be considered.  The "probably" comment by Weeks was only referring to the exact method of marking the locations of greens, tees, whatever and we know it was all with minimal earthworks.

I think it should be considered too, although not necessarily as a valid source. Club histories are notoriously inaccurate about golf architecture, especially when written by someone unfamiliar with the subject. That combined with the fact that Weeks's story has lots of holes in it based on contemporaneous accounts recently uncovered, and also the amount of speculation in his account, as a result I don't put much stock in it.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 02:24:58 PM by Tom MacWood »

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #765 on: December 13, 2010, 02:29:06 PM »

Mike
First you tell us they were traveling out to Hamilton on horseback a la Paul Revere and/or John Adams. Then you tell us any simpleton could lay out a golf course in 1894. And then you try to prove simpletons did design the course by giving us the article with the subcommittee (two of your three are involved) and the article of the four experts playing on opening day (although you claim it is an exhibition prior to the opening). Your three are among the four, with fourth being WB Thomas, the man responsible for bring Campbell to America. You then tell us these two article taken together are a strong indication the Squire & Co were involved in the design. And to top it off you found one of the three visiting his in-laws in Hamilton in the spring, which proves he was in the area presumably on horseback. Anyone could be in the area via relatively short train trip. This may be the most far fetched and convoluted attempt in golfclubatlas history.


Tom MacWood,

All of us, yourself included, engage in speculative discussions at times and in retrospect, all of us make some comments that are foolish and historically irrelevant.    

That being said, I reject most of the categorizations you presented above out of hand.

Before I found those articles and posted them here recently, it was you who had presented the story of the three members as having absolutely no other support other than what you suggested was Weeks' speculation.   In fact, you regularly derided the story, mocking Appleton as the "Keeper of the Hounds".   It was you who suggested that the whole story was made from cheesecloth, suggesting that this was yet another attempt to create a legend or puff up the membership history, all at the expense of the poor laboring foreign golf pro who actually did the work, and you insinuated that Weeks was simply making it up, or in effect, lying to the reader.

What I found and presented here is not conclusive, but it does support Weeks in circumstance, and it also supports what Tom Paul tells us he has seen of the club administrative records.

So what have we learned new here with the articles I posted?

1) We learned that at least two of the three members who Weeks tells us staked out the first nine holes after the snows melted that spring were appointed sometime before 4/15/1894 as a subcommittee charged with bringing golf to Myopia.

2) We learned that the third member, AP Gardner, was in Hamilton during that same time period, spring 1894.

3) We learned that these members were known as golf "experts", such as it was back then, before the course at Myopia was even opened.

4) We learned that sheep were purchased in May and fielded on the golf course land, and we learned (from articles David and I produced) that you could watch all the golf holes from a high vantage point by mid-May, both at least suggesting that the location of those holes had been determined.

5) We learned that despite protestations first that South Hamilton was a summer colony only that indeed members were there during this period and we learned despite protestations to the contrary that there was a foot and a half of snow on the ground that golfers were playing in Boston on April 11th, so we really don't know when the "snows melted", as Weeks described, but presumably they were prior to April 11th, so the three members could have done their work as early as March.

6) We learned that as early as April 15th, Willie Campbell was Essex CC bound for the season, with his assignment beginning in June and ending in September of that year.

7) We also learned from the articles that you posted that the course was "laid out" by Willie Campbell supposedly just a "few days" before the opening in mid-June.    I'm surprised no one questioned this, because what the heck could his work have involved Tom, if he could do it in no time at all and have it opened for play in just a "few days"?   I mean, what the heck were the other members doing from early spring til then if Campbell could just snap his fingers and voila!, a golf course appeared out of thin air in just a "few days"?

My "theories" are simply that both the membership was involved, and that Campbell was involved.   While none of us but Tom Paul have seen the administrative records, I don't believe Tom would make up a story here and I seriously doubt Weeks did as well.   When you and David call my supporting evidence "ludicrous", or say I'm "embarrassing" myself, I take heart in knowing that at heart you and David have seen no more of the real evidence than you can from the comfort of your living room.   If you were indeed interested in the truth more than just trying to embarrass Tom Paul here I would think you'd dig deeper and I think others here realize that too.

Moreover, as regards course architecture during that time period, it does appear from much of the work by Campbell, et.al, that indeed it was "simpleton" in nature.    What else could be had in a day's work, Tom?   It was simply locating tees, greens, and perhaps some cross hazards, and anyone with a familiarity with the game at all could have designed the type of courses that were the order of the day in this country at that time.   The courses lacked sophistication, interest, and elegance, but they were functional for the nascent game.

Frankly, I think the pros did the work because that was deemed to be manual labor back then, and not a pursuit for "gentlemen".   I recognize that this is politically incorrect in today's parlance, but it was the reality.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 02:31:18 PM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #766 on: December 13, 2010, 02:38:28 PM »
David
I'm not sure if this has been discussed or not, but the June 19 report in the Boston Daily Advertiser says the course at Myopia had only been laid out days earlier which seems to support the reports in mid-May that the course had yet been laid out.

On July 13, 1894 there was a report in the Boston Globe about Essex County:

"This spring golf links of nine holes were laid out under the experienced direction of Willie Campbell, professional golf champion of this country. These links are one and three quarters miles round and are probably the most perfect in America at this present time."

One normally thinks of these claims of being the best as hyperbole, but in 1894, with Campbell, each new course probably was the best, with Myopia the next to rightfully make the claim.

« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 02:42:33 PM by Tom MacWood »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #767 on: December 13, 2010, 02:48:46 PM »
These last two posts are a great example of how this little group of participants can talk right past each other and never really answer any questions.  Its happened both ways, but in this case, Mike asks in No. 765 how a course could be made ready in just a few days (especially when the greens are known to have been sodded, which takes a while to knit roots in)

TMac ignores that and supplies the same newspaper article that says the course had just been laid out "days earlier" by June 19.....then ignores the fact that Campbell had been in the US only months, and had done no other US designs, and from two to however many Tmac has dug up in England.  I am not sure the marketing machine was in full force just a few days before opening, so I think this is probably not the case. I could be wrong, and both TMac and I are speculating as to how much was hypberbole and what was not.

By the way, using reasoning and logic, who do we think would know more about the timing of getting the links ready to play - the appointed sub committee (three months) or the cub reporter, who reports (IMHO almost certainly erroneously, that they had been laid out a few days before?  I think the reporter got it wrong.

Again, that doesn't say whether WC had anything to do with it.  But, that little snippet of supposed "fact" just can't be right from what we collectively know about growing turf.  

And if we use TMac's logic, if that part of the report is wrong, then the whole report has to be called into question, right? ;)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

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Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #768 on: December 13, 2010, 02:52:51 PM »

Mike
First you tell us they were traveling out to Hamilton on horseback a la Paul Revere and/or John Adams. Then you tell us any simpleton could lay out a golf course in 1894. And then you try to prove simpletons did design the course by giving us the article with the subcommittee (two of your three are involved) and the article of the four experts playing on opening day (although you claim it is an exhibition prior to the opening). Your three are among the four, with fourth being WB Thomas, the man responsible for bring Campbell to America. You then tell us these two article taken together are a strong indication the Squire & Co were involved in the design. And to top it off you found one of the three visiting his in-laws in Hamilton in the spring, which proves he was in the area presumably on horseback. Anyone could be in the area via relatively short train trip. This may be the most far fetched and convoluted attempt in golfclubatlas history.


Tom MacWood,

All of us, yourself included, engage in speculative discussions at times and in retrospect, all of us make some comments that are foolish and historically irrelevant.    

That being said, I reject most of the categorizations you presented above out of hand.

Before I found those articles and posted them here recently, it was you who had presented the story of the three members as having absolutely no other support other than what you suggested was Weeks' speculation.   In fact, you regularly derided the story, mocking Appleton as the "Keeper of the Hounds".   It was you who suggested that the whole story was made from cheesecloth, suggesting that this was yet another attempt to create a legend or puff up the membership history, all at the expense of the poor laboring foreign golf pro who actually did the work, and you insinuated that Weeks was simply making it up, or in effect, lying to the reader.

What I found and presented here is not conclusive, but it does support Weeks in circumstance, and it also supports what Tom Paul tells us he has seen of the club administrative records.

So what have we learned new here with the articles I posted?

1) We learned that at least two of the three members who Weeks tells us staked out the first nine holes after the snows melted that spring were appointed sometime before 4/15/1894 as a subcommittee charged with bringing golf to Myopia.

2) We learned that the third member, AP Gardner, was in Hamilton during that same time period, spring 1894.

3) We learned that these members were known as golf "experts", such as it was back then, before the course at Myopia was even opened.

4) We learned that sheep were purchased in May and fielded on the golf course land, and we learned (from articles David and I produced) that you could watch all the golf holes from a high vantage point by mid-May, both at least suggesting that the location of those holes had been determined.

5) We learned that despite protestations first that South Hamilton was a summer colony only that indeed members were there during this period and we learned despite protestations to the contrary that there was a foot and a half of snow on the ground that golfers were playing in Boston on April 11th, so we really don't know when the "snows melted", as Weeks described, but presumably they were prior to April 11th, so the three members could have done their work as early as March.

6) We learned that as early as April 15th, Willie Campbell was Essex CC bound for the season, with his assignment beginning in June and ending in September of that year.

7) We also learned from the articles that you posted that the course was "laid out" by Willie Campbell supposedly just a "few days" before the opening in mid-June.    I'm surprised no one questioned this, because what the heck could his work have involved Tom, if he could do it in no time at all and have it opened for play in just a "few days"?   I mean, what the heck were the other members doing from early spring til then if Campbell could just snap his fingers and voila!, a golf course appeared out of thin air in just a "few days"?

My "theories" are simply that both the membership was involved, and that Campbell was involved.   While none of us but Tom Paul have seen the administrative records, I don't believe Tom would make up a story here and I seriously doubt Weeks did as well.   When you and David call my supporting evidence "ludicrous", or say I'm "embarrassing" myself, I take heart in knowing that at heart you and David have seen no more of the real evidence than you can from the comfort of your living room.   If you were indeed interested in the truth more than just trying to embarrass Tom Paul here I would think you'd dig deeper and I think others here realize that too.

Moreover, as regards course architecture during that time period, it does appear from much of the work by Campbell, et.al, that indeed it was "simpleton" in nature.    What else could be had in a day's work, Tom?   It was simply locating tees, greens, and perhaps some cross hazards, and anyone with a familiarity with the game at all could have designed the type of courses that were the order of the day in this country at that time.   The courses lacked sophistication, interest, and elegance, but they were functional for the nascent game.

Frankly, I think the pros did the work because that was deemed to be manual labor back then, and not a pursuit for "gentlemen".   I recognize that this is politically incorrect in today's parlance, but it was the reality.


The rest of it is irrelevant once you get to point #7. There are no reports that the Squire & Co had anything to do with laying out the golf course. And why would they, they were relative beginners and they had one of the foremost experts in the country (and the world) at their disposal? Your theory makes no sense.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #769 on: December 13, 2010, 02:54:56 PM »
These last two posts are a great example of how this little group of participants can talk right past each other and never really answer any questions.  Its happened both ways, but in this case, Mike asks in No. 765 how a course could be made ready in just a few days (especially when the greens are known to have been sodded, which takes a while to knit roots in)

TMac ignores that and supplies the same newspaper article that says the course had just been laid out "days earlier" by June 19.....then ignores the fact that Campbell had been in the US only months, and had done no other US designs, and from two to however many Tmac has dug up in England.  I am not sure the marketing machine was in full force just a few days before opening, so I think this is probably not the case. I could be wrong, and both TMac and I are speculating as to how much was hypberbole and what was not.

By the way, using reasoning and logic, who do we think would know more about the timing of getting the links ready to play - the appointed sub committee (three months) or the cub reporter, who reports (IMHO almost certainly erroneously, that they had been laid out a few days before?  I think the reporter got it wrong.

Again, that doesn't say whether WC had anything to do with it.  But, that little snippet of supposed "fact" just can't be right from what we collectively know about growing turf.  

And if we use TMac's logic, if that part of the report is wrong, then the whole report has to be called into question, right? ;)

How do we know the greens were sodded?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #770 on: December 13, 2010, 03:05:22 PM »
BTW,

To be honest, I would think the sod would have been laid sometime after the snow melted (April 15 to about May 15 at the latest to allow enough time for rolling, root knitting, mowing by sheep.  Mike says one of the reports say the sheep were bought in May.  To me, logic says they were bought concurrently with having some grass to eat/mow, whether just to start mowing down the fw where they were anticipated, or perhaps to start gnawing the greens down to height, Or maybe both, no?  

Sure, they could have been bought earlier, than needed, but we have to consider it.  (Maybe they put the sheep through some kind of "spring training" before setting them out on the golf course?)

It also strikes me that the laid out as used in the newspaper may (and yes, strike me with a lightning bolt since I am speculating again) possibly simply referred to the final preparations, which may very well have been done by Campbell (again, regardless of who routed the course) and which in the mind of an inexperienced reporter (even if experienced, they HAD to be inexperienced in reporting on golf, since it was so new and so few courses had opened) was all that was necessary to do to play golf.  

And the truth is, as far as design to get a course open quickly for play. getting the turf ready was probably the more time consuming and skill requiring job.  No one ever said this was to be a masterpiece.  The record shows speed in opening was more of a concern than quality, despite the newspaper hyperbole, and also because they had no qualms about bringing Leeds in to make it right for the Open just a few years later.

I only mention this to support Mike's contention that it wasn't much more than rudimentary.  If I was tasked with getting a course open in a few months time, just to have one, I don't think I would wait around for an overseas expert.  I would start right in, and to me, it makes sense they had troubles, or got behind, and then got Willie over there from Brookline to finish what they couldn't.

But, then, that is just my take on the matter.  Others opinions may vary.

TMac,

I just saw your post.  In answer:

I am not going back to look, but some report somewhere mentioned laying sod on the greens. 

Second, the Weeks book says the club members footed the property and laid out the course.  You can keep saying there is no mention of them doing that, and we understand that you don't want to accept Weeks for reasons you have stated, but there is something in the record for both claims.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #771 on: December 13, 2010, 03:06:49 PM »
Jeff
You should get your facts straight before you begin lecturing us.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #772 on: December 13, 2010, 03:28:06 PM »
TMac,

You just do what you think you need to do. I don't think I misquoted the gist of your interchange with Mike, and I went out of my way to note that this happens both ways.  Lastly, I still stand by my post 630 which pretty much sums up the attitude you and David typically bring to this.  Basically, if we disagree, we have our facts wrong, or are speculating, etc. whereas you two apparently never do.

Post 630 rules!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #773 on: December 13, 2010, 03:40:40 PM »
Jeff
You have continually confused the facts; have gathered no information on the subject and have no apparent ability to gather info; have speculated morning, noon, and night - usually with a little or no information or the wrong information; and now you have the have the gaul to tell us what is wrong with this site. That is funny.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #774 on: December 13, 2010, 04:00:16 PM »
TMac,

I have admitted from time to time when I have been wrong on this site.  That is a lot more than many here can say!

I admit that I don't have time to research as you do, but enjoy the discussions providing the rudeness prevalent on all sides doesn't dominate.

What I won't admit for the moment (although will be glad to if that smoking gun ever appears to prove your or anyones point) is that:

1.  Disagreeing with your speculation as to what happened at Myopia is being wrong, or that
2.  Somehow, my speculation (on such common sense things as it takes sod then and now more than a few days to knit in and be ready for walking around upon) is any less valuble than yours.

You have the perspective as someone who loves to research many, many old documents and I applaud that and always have.  I have some real life perspective on how projects tend to go, and yes, realize things were different back then (although grass is grass in this case)  In reality, it takes a lot of different perspectives to best arrive at the truth of something like this and I throw in comments from time to time when I think the perspective may be valuble.

And, being honest, I know some of mine are wrong. You have had some facts wrong (Cough, Cough.. Barker)

On the other hand, you often twist things as I posted above, and then cover then with an accusatory question, and then accuse others of the same again and again.  You can come across with a feeling of misplaced arrogance in some of your posts in thinking that your perspective is the only one to be reckoned with and that most others here would agree with you from the sidelines.  As per above, I think many of us can contribute to an undestanding of history here, so I am simply not sure that is the case.

Last I heard, this is a discussion group, not a "I am required to produce documents group."  As near as I know, I have never demanded that anyone produce anything here, although I have tried to politely request some from time to time.  It is hard to go back and read a 23 page thread (and yet I did do that recently)

So, you have your problems with my approach here, and I have some problems with your approach.  We bump heads from time to time, and usually get over it and back to productive discussions.  It is what it is.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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