[TEPaul]

"I presume he had his sources and that was the old club records, maybe the old scrap book,"


Jeff:

I should reiterate that Weeks had the Leeds Scrapbook and certainly referred to it but now it seems to be gone perhaps not seen since 1975, although some from Myopia seem to feel they last saw it later than that. I just have a feeling that Leeds Scrapbook was a comprehensive diary of much of what he thought about golf and architecture and wrote it down in that. It may've even gone back to his trips abroad in the early days. I sure wish I could find it; not that I have searched everywhere for it and who may have it or know its whereabout. It could be a treasure trove of architectural information particularly to do with Leeds' Myopia over the years.

Actually, Weeks does cite a number of his sources but again I think one must understand how to view them and the importance of them given that club was first one of only hunting interests and today it remains one of horse sport. There was a lady who had all the Run Books and I believe those essentially were that club's chronicle/administrative records logs, but for how long into the club's history that lasted I'm not completely sure.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Nope...I'm all ears.

Bryan,

I don't know the answers to your questions but am pretty sure Tom might.  Good to hear from you.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
Nope...I'm all ears."

Mike:

Wayne heard about it somehow, and then it came up for auction. As I said I think there may've only been two copies of it or even only two copies published. He felt the USGA should bid on it but it was real pricey (actually the USGA may have the only other copy). So I called my buddy in Mass who is a great friend, on the Lesley Cup and presently the Pres of the Mass Golf Assoc. and often a buyer for Alister Johnson, arguably the biggest collector of golf textual material in the world. I asked him if he was aware of this book that had been up for auction and he said funny I should ask as he just bought it for Alister. Well, I asked him if Alister might consider printing us a copy of it and he said he would ask. Literally, the next day I went over to GMGC and into the office and they handed me a letter from Alister. He wanted to buy one of my GMGC Design Evolution books! I've never even met Alister. So I gave him one (the last one I had actually) and he was appreciative for that and of course made us a copy of the Prosper Senat book.

Nothing like some good old fashioned quid pro quo collaboration, Huh, Mikey Boy?!

By the way, Mikey Boy, even though the book was published in 1898 it does make it clear that everything about Philadelphia golf architecture or golf golf architecture in America generally was traceable up until that point to the influence of C.B. Macdonald and would remain so for all time to come and that included Merion East which would be designed and built within the next 13-14 years. It also mentioned Hugh Wilson and that he was just coming out of high school then and that he didn't know the difference between a golf course and a bowling alley and he very likely never would!!

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Great stuff!

I wonder what I could get in trade for the Cobbs Creek book?  On sheer size alone - may be able to fund my retirement! 

[Bryan Izatt]

Mike,

I try to only dabble on these threads on rare occasions for obvious reasons.  

Based on Tom's story and the multiple copies already made and the publishing date, I doubt that there is any copyright issue.  If you got a copy of the cover and front pages and there is no copyright in there, then it was probably never copyrighted.  In any event, it would be public domain now anyway.  So, ................  can you scan and post relevant parts of it?  It'd be most interesting.

[Mike Cirba]

Bryan,

I was told that the owner of the book asked that we not reproduce it further so I want to respect that.

If there is specific info that others are interested in I'll be happy to tell you what it says.

Hope you can understand.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

You asked earlier why I thought perhaps Campbell was never the pro at MH.  A post last year by Neil Carlton rings a bell.  Note, all his newspaper arrticles, which cover WC's time frame in America never get around to saying WC was hired at MH.  If you read this chronology of "engagements" it pretty well fills in his time in America.  So, if he got to Myopia to teach (which he did) he got there independently or on loan from Brookline.


For the record, the newspaper article (Glasgow Evening Times) that I found that referred to WC going to America was dated 9th March and not the 19th as I had originally thought. What it says is that WC had accepted appointment as greenkeeper to Boston GC and that "he sails for the states next week".

Then in 14th June 1895 the same paper states that he has been re-engaged as professional and greenkeeper for another year by the Brookline CC, Massachusets USA.

Another report dated 28th Feb 1896 states that he has left the CC of Brookline.

The final mention I have for him is a report dated 26th Nov 1896 which says the following;

"Courses are still being laid out in the States. Philadelphia, aided by Willie Campbell, has added another to its large number of links. St Andrews, having bought a lot of land at a cost, it is said, of 80,000 dols, will lay it out when the frost goes."

[Jeff_Brauer]

Also note that despite his playing prowess, at least over in the UK, they had the impression he was also going to work as a greenskeeper.

[Tom MacWood]

"I presume he had his sources and that was the old club records, maybe the old scrap book,"


Jeff:

I should reiterate that Weeks had the Leeds Scrapbook and certainly referred to it but now it seems to be gone perhaps not seen since 1975, although some from Myopia seem to feel they last saw it later than that. I just have a feeling that Leeds Scrapbook was a comprehensive diary of much of what he thought about golf and architecture and wrote it down in that. It may've even gone back to his trips abroad in the early days. I sure wish I could find it; not that I have searched everywhere for it and who may have it or know its whereabout. It could be a treasure trove of architectural information particularly to do with Leeds' Myopia over the years.

Actually, Weeks does cite a number of his sources but again I think one must understand how to view them and the importance of them given that club was first one of only hunting interests and today it remains one of horse sport. There was a lady who had all the Run Books and I believe those essentially were that club's chronicle/administrative records logs, but for how long into the club's history that lasted I'm not completely sure.

Jeff
But yet you give TEP the benefit of the doubt when he tells you he saw in the Myopia club records that the Squire & Co first laid out the course. Did you ask him where exactly he read this? Club minutes, Run Book, letters, club history, etc.?

[Tom MacWood]

TMac,

You asked earlier why I thought perhaps Campbell was never the pro at MH.  A post last year by Neil Carlton rings a bell.  Note, all his newspaper arrticles, which cover WC's time frame in America never get around to saying WC was hired at MH.  If you read this chronology of "engagements" it pretty well fills in his time in America.  So, if he got to Myopia to teach (which he did) he got there independently or on loan from Brookline.


For the record, the newspaper article (Glasgow Evening Times) that I found that referred to WC going to America was dated 9th March and not the 19th as I had originally thought. What it says is that WC had accepted appointment as greenkeeper to Boston GC and that "he sails for the states next week".

Then in 14th June 1895 the same paper states that he has been re-engaged as professional and greenkeeper for another year by the Brookline CC, Massachusets USA.

Another report dated 28th Feb 1896 states that he has left the CC of Brookline.

The final mention I have for him is a report dated 26th Nov 1896 which says the following;

"Courses are still being laid out in the States. Philadelphia, aided by Willie Campbell, has added another to its large number of links. St Andrews, having bought a lot of land at a cost, it is said, of 80,000 dols, will lay it out when the frost goes."

Like you said in a previous post these pros were jacks of all trades, teachers, architects, greenkeepers, clubmakers. Everything you posted is confirmed in American newspaper articles. I'm not sure what your point is...are you saying if Campbell was on loan (which he wasn't) Myopia might not have had record of him?

[DMoriarty]

Jeff Brauer,

Why do you keep speculating that Willie Campbell was never the professional at Myopia?  He played in multiple tournaments in 1896 and was listed as "Willie Campbell of Myopia" in a number of tournaments beginning in June 1896 and continuing into October 1896.    Here is just one example from the New York Herald Tribune, October 20, 1896:



Given that you've never seen Myopia's records, have no idea of their format, their completeness, or the type of information contained therein, how can you use this non-information to dismiss multiple newspaper accounts about Campbell and Myopia.  

Is this yet another newspaper error?   What of other 1896 reports in the Boston Globe,  Boston Journal, and Newport Daily news listing Willie Campbell of Myopia?     Are all these examples of newspapers that just happened to get the exact same thing wrong, only about a variety of events?    

Perhaps you should redirect some of your skepticism about the accuracy of the old newspaper articles onto the accuracy of your source material.   I realize that might be hard to do since you've never even seen the material on which you base your opinion, but instead just apparently believing what TEPaul tells you to believe.

[Tom MacWood]

Bryan,

I was told that the owner of the book asked that we not reproduce it further so I want to respect that.

If there is specific info that others are interested in I'll be happy to tell you what it says.

Hope you can understand.

Mike
You brought it up. If you weren't willing to share the information don't think you should have kept it to yourself? Who is the owner?

[TEPaul]

"You asked earlier why I thought perhaps Campbell was never the pro at MH.  A post last year by Neil Carlton rings a bell.  Note, all his newspaper arrticles, which cover WC's time frame in America never get around to saying WC was hired at MH.  If you read this chronology of "engagements" it pretty well fills in his time in America.  So, if he got to Myopia to teach (which he did) he got there independently or on loan from Brookline."

Jeff:

That is an interesting point to raise and to try to look into. It very well may tell us something about the way the early professional immigrant golfers worked in that early era. It sure does seem that Campbell was a man who was moving around very quickly from place to place and service to service in his mere six years in this country. I suspect he may've provided some services to Myopia in 1896 or so such as playing lessons and perhaps playing tournament golf for Myopia in that year. I note that in the 1896 to 1897 timeframe or perhaps even the 1895 to 1897 timeframe Robert White was actually Myopia's permanent professional and greenskeeper, before John "Jack" Jones who was there for years thereafter took over for White. This is the same time Campbell is listed with Myopia. Did they have two head pros at the same time? I doubt that. White may've been on their payroll as their pro/greenkeeper then and Campbell just being listed as their tournament pro and perhaps a guy who gave lessons for an individual fee to Myopia's members and others at other clubs as well as traveling and doing other things such as fairly quickly laying out courses in a day or so for a fixed fee.

When I get back to Myopia I will see if their financial records from that time might reflect on that somehow. Of course, I can see MacWood and Moriarty histrionically caterwalling that this is just more speculation. Well, at this point, of course it is but it is going to turn into research at and with the subject---Myopia! Are they going to do this? Of course not. They will just rely on me and then criticize my efforts after I've done what they should have done if they really were dedicated researchers and historians on this particular subject! 

[Tom MacWood]

Jeff:

That is an interesting point to raise and to try to look into. It very well may tell us something about the way the early professional immigrant golfers worked in that early era. It sure does seem that Campbell was a man who was moving around very quickly from place to place and service to service in his mere six years in this country. I suspect he may've provided some services to Myopia in 1896 or so such as playing lessons and perhaps playing tournament golf for Myopia in that year. I note that in the 1896 to 1897 timeframe or perhaps even the 1895 to 1897 timeframe Robert White was actually Myopia's permanent professional and greenskeeper, before John "Jack" Jones who was there for years thereafter took over for White. This is the same time Campbell is listed with Myopia. Did they have two head pros at the same time? I doubt that. White may've been on their payroll as their pro/greenkeeper then and Campbell just being listed as their tournament pro and perhaps a guy who gave lessons for an individual fee to Myopia's members and others at other clubs as well as traveling and doing other things such as fairly quickly laying out courses in a day or so for a fixed fee.

When I get back to Myopia I will see if their financial records from that time might reflect on that somehow. Of course, I can see MacWood and Moriarty histrionically caterwalling that this is just more speculation. Well, at this point, of course it is but it is going to turn into research at and with the subject---Myopia! Are they going to do this? Of course not. They will just rely on me and then criticize my efforts after I've done what they should have done if they really were dedicated researchers and historians on this particular subject!  

TEP
Your first sentence highlighted in yellow is your speculation presented as fact unless you have supporting documentation, which is highly unlikely. The second sentence is completely unfounded speculation. When you get back to Myopia they should put you on the payroll as their lead archivist because who ever is now in charge is not doing a very good job.

[Phil_the_Author]

For those that might find this of interest. From the website of the Society of Hickory Golfers, from the article "Scottish Exiles - The Foot Soldiers" written by Frank Boumphrey, can be found the following:

Robert White - Early Years

[/b]

Robert White had been a school teacher in his native St. Andrews and came over to the United States in 1894. He obviously found that instructing novice adult golfers was more congenial and rewarding - and probably better paying - than pedagogy, and quickly found work at the Myopia Country Club. From there he went to Cincinnati Golf Club, then Louisville, then in 1902 to Ravisloe in Chicago where he stayed until 1914.

[TEPaul]

I will amend the first sentence to read Robert White "may've been" and then yes of course that and the next sentence would purposely qualify as speculation. Aren't you the same person who claimed on this website that speculation is a good and necessary thing that can sometimes help to lead to avenues and areas where one may discover actual fact?  

[Phil_the_Author]

For those that might be interested:

From the website www.golfcoursearchitecture.net, in an article about Donald Ross, the following is found:

"At St Andrews Ross met another young Scot, Robert White. White emigrated to America in 1894 to study agronomy, and, upon his arrival, became pro/greenkeeper at Myopia Hunt Club in Hamilton, Massachusetts. There he first met a man named Leonard Tufts. At that same time, Ross returned to his hometown to become the first professional and greenkeeper of the Dornoch Golf Club. According to Dornoch native Rod Innes (whose father was a schoolmate of Ross’), Donald soon made improvements to the links."

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac and David,

Yes I am speculating or more correctly, exploring possible scenarios to fit what all the various records - newspaper accounts of his employment, no mention of his employment by his employers, despite mentioning others in the same position only a year later, and some accounts that he was the professional there.

The "on loan" theory is one way these reports could all be true.  Not sure why that makes me such a pariah in your eyes. In the name of historic research, I suspect it beat presuming (again in an extraordinary coincidence among clubs you two study) that yet another club kept bad records and the cub reporters must have it right.

I wiil go so far as to say that I suspect the on loan theory is wrong, but that eventually, someone will find out why he wasn't mentioned in club records. TePaul may have it, with the tournament pro thing. One of those articles mentions the top two finishers were both pros (I think) out of the same club and I have heard of other such arrangement.

I will also concede that it really doesn't have much to do with design attribution of Myopia, but then again, this thread is titled "Willie Campbell and Myopia" and not "Willie Campbell and Myopia's Design", so it seems fair game, no?

[Phil_the_Author]

For those that might be interested:

From the article, "Where Innovation Was The Hallmark, MacGregor: The First 100 Years"
 
"Robert White, born in St. Andrews, Scotland, was among the vanguard of his countrymen who emigrated to the United States and became its first golf professionals. He was never much of a golfer, by professional standards, but he had a long and distinguished career in American golf that included helping found the PGA of America; he was the association's first president.  Incidentally, he also helped create MacGregor Golf.
 
"Golf pros of the time were jacks-of-all-trades -- they taught golf, maintained the course, made clubs.  One day, in 1894, while the professional at the Myopia Hunt Club, in Massachusetts, White was in his shop laboring over a new wood clubhead.  A local carpenter, named Gardner, happened by..."  

Tom Paul, I think you're doing a pretty good job as archivist for Myopia even if others don't think so...  

I do have a question and the answer may certainly explain the "Campbell" question; if Robert White WAS the PROFESSIONAL at Myopia in 1894 as these and quite a few other sources maintain, then it would certainly seem to agree with the speculation that Campbell, although giving lessons at Myopia, was not officially affiliated with the Club, what role did WHITE play, if any, in the design of the course?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Phil, if WC was also in that shop in 1894 it would have been pretty crowded, no?

If anything, it may increase the chances that Willie was actually retained to do something on the golf course at Myopia as an outside consultant.  I am just curious as to how these things worked.

[Phil_the_Author]

Jeff,

I brought up this information about White to demonstarte how very little is really known and recorded about the beginnings of the golf club. Speculations have been made by some whoi have never seen the Myopia records, and I admit that I also have not, that they arec woefully inadequate because some have not trusted Tom Paul's account of what they conatin, that is, no mention of Campbell. Well apparaently, unless Tom corrects me, they contain no mention of White who was their professional when they first opened for play (according to some cources).

So if they then name certain members who they specifically state in these notes as being the ones who laid out and/or created the original course I would put more faith in that information than extent newspaper accounts.

I am hoping that Tom can share whatever information may be at Myopia about Robert White as I think that his time there clearly has a bearing on this discussion... 

[Tom MacWood]

Here is a link to a thread on Robert White from a couple of years ago. In this thread TEP tells us the information on the Squire & Co comes from the board minutes and Secretary Dacres Bush.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35863.0/

TEP
Apparently those board minutes didn't have information on White because you had no idea when he was the pro, actually you thought you knew but your information was wrong. And according to the same source Phil quoted White was in Cincinnati in 1896. Why would the board minutes have detailed info on the Squire & Co laying out the course but no information on when White and Campbell actually worked at the club?

[Tom MacWood]

Weeks does quote Secretary Dacres Bush in his history of Myopia:

"At a meeting of the Executive Committee about March 1894 it was decided to build a golf links on the Myopia grounds. Accordingly the grounds were examined, and in opposition from a number of members because the ground was so rough, nine greens were sodded and cut, and play began on June 1st, 1894. Members and associates soon began to show much interest in the game, and the first tournament was held, June 18th, 1894. About twenty-five entries. Won by Herbert Leeds of Boston who was scratch. Score, first round, 58; second round, 54; Total 112. Laurence Curtis made 63-59--122. WB Thomas 63-62--125. The second tournament was held on July 4th, 1894. About twenty entries. Won by Herbert C. Leeds, scratch 52-61--113."

This is what Weeks wrote about Robert White:

"Robert White served briefly as Myopia's greenskeeper and profestional and in 1897 was succeeded by chubby, good natured John Jones, who remained for many years."

[Tom MacWood]

Phil
How come you did not include the info on White going to Cincinnati in 1896?

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

You asked, "How come you did not include the info on White going to Cincinnati in 1896?"

Because that fact has absolutely NOTHING at all to do with who designed Myopia two years before and how Campbell was viewed by Myopia two years before or if Campbell was the proferssional two years before. Neither does his being hired as the superintendent at Shawnee in 1913 or his move to North Shore in 1914 or anything else he may have done in the years that followed.

I find it quite hard to believe that Campbell was Myopia's paid professional, regardless of what contemporary newspaper accounts might be interpreted as meaning if White was. To quote a well-known Scot, "There can be only one." Was he there giving lessons? I would certainly think the proof is there for that. Was he the Club's official professional? I think THAT is highly debateable.

Since it isn't all that far from you, and with your interest in this subject, why not take a run over to Dayton and ask if there is any information about White at Myopia in their archives and historical records?

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