[DMoriarty]

Otherwise, what do you think they were doing between the time they were appointed to the subcommittee as men with golf experience (experts) to bring golf to Myopia sometime before that April 15th report and May 13th when it was reported that you could watch play across the entire course from the high vantage point?   Waiting for Willie Campbell to come up from Brookline on the other side of the city?

Waiting for him to come to Hamilton from Brookline?  You don't really think they lived in Hamilton during the winter, do you? They lived in Boston from October/November until May/June. Myopia Hunt Club was their summer club.    Their annual meeting took place in Boston. Their annual ball?  Boston. They were in Boston.

They didn't have to wait for Willie Campbell because he was teaching them to golf at the Country Club. Burnam, Merrill, and Appleton were listed among the better players there.

[DMoriarty]

TEPaul,   The June 1894 newspaper articles read as if someone associated with the club provided the information to the paper, and as you know this was often how things worked with club events   Why would every account state that Willie Campbell laid out the course if he did not?

Also, given that you know Myopia, then you can confirm that it was largely a summer and fall club, with the season generally running from the end of May or beginning of June until October or November.   Is it possible that these three weren't even in Hamilton until May? 

[Tom MacWood]

The actual yardage of the 1898 Long Nine was 2928.

TEP
Your yardage comes from Weeks' book. The course played to 2865 yards for the 1898 US Open, this according to the Boston Globe (6/5/1898).

[Jeff_Brauer]

I am frankly amazed that we are so critical and dismissive of media's ability to get it right today, and yet we seem to think they never got it wrong before.......

This is the same argument as on another attribution thread, isn't it?  We don't trust the club minutes to mean what they say?  But we trust a cub reporter from the Boston Globe, in repeating info heard from club members? 

For that matter, I sit around enough clubhouses and here rumors over lunch about what is happening out on the golf course being remodeled to know that they themselves aren't necessarily great sources of info!

[Tom MacWood]

"There is no mention in print (that I have found) of the Squire & Co. or anyone else laying out those courses. Weeks and TEP's story makes no sense in my opinion, and there is no documented support for it. Is there?"


Tom MacWood:

So, let me get this straight; do you actually think if you can't find something in a newspaper account it didn't happen or its not true? You really should get off your ass in front of your computer in Ohio and start actually visiting these subjects and doing the necessary historic research on site. Of course this doesn't make sense to you----eg you don't know what the place looks like and you're dealing with far less than complete historic information. If you had actually read what Weeks was obviously looking at and what I've read you may have a chance at understanding most of this but knowing you perhaps even that wouldn't do it.

Until you actually visit the likes of Merion GC, MCC and Myopia I can certainly see from all this there is obviously no point trying to discuss the details of their original architectural history with you. You either can't seem to understand what others tell you who've seen this material or you refuse to believe them so it would be better if you just went to read it and research it yourself and then maybe a discussion about it could be more productive with you.
 
 

TEP
That is what historians deal with...they require evidence usually in some written form, and the more confirming evidence the better. It could be a newspaper account, magazine account, a letter, a diary, club minutes entry, etc. Have you found any contemporaneous evidence to support your theory regarding the Squire & Co?

There are at least three contemporaneous accounts from three different sources that Campbell laid out the course.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom aacWood,

Why couldn't it be that the members staked out the locations of the holes and then had Campbell in to lay out the course on the ground, building tees, greens, and bunkers?

If the Myopia "run book" is correct, and we have no reason to believe otherwise, that would be the most plausible scenario, yes?

[Tom MacWood]

That comes from a book written in 1975, not a contemporaneous source. It is not a quote, and the source of the information remains a mystery. It reads like complete fiction, and the known facts support the idea that it is fiction.

[DMoriarty]

Jeff Brauer,

I haven't seen the 1894 records.  Have you?   If not, then what are you talking about?

All is that has been posted on here seems to be from the history, and the part  that seems of that which seems to be from the records doesnt contradict the newspaper articles.

What, specifically, in the club records contradicts these three articles?

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,   The June 1894 newspaper articles read as if someone associated with the club provided the information to the paper, and as you know this was often how things worked with club events   Why would every account state that Willie Campbell laid out the course if he did not?"


David:

I just can't answer that; at least not with anything I've seen from the records of Myopia from that time. I looked back in this thread and I can see a year and a half ago I mentioned that I had read the contemporaneous administrative records of Myopia that recorded that three members routed, staked out or laid out or whatever anyone wants to call it a nine hole golf course in 1894 and before Campbell ever arrived in America.

So, if you ask me why some newspaper accounts mentioned that Campbell laid out the original nine rather than those three members that the club administrative records mentioned was done by three members before he arrived, what do you think I should say to you or about that?

I mean I have my own ideas about why those newspaper accounts in May or June or August or September of 1894 may've said that about Willie Campbell but you probably don't want to hear my ideas and what I read from the records of Myopia in the Spring of 1894 before Campbell arrived and particularly after I have read through this thread from a year and a half ago and noticed what people like you and MacWood and Jim Kennedy said when I mentioned some of the same things I am mentioning now and feeling now.

Judging from those posts a year and a half ago (essentially from about #106 to a little over #200) it seems it would be best to just let you guys discuss this with what you have; it does not appear you are that interested in what I've read unless I can scan it or copy it onto GOLFLUBATLAS.com.

My only response and reaction, at this point, is to encourage you all to just go and read what I've read and decide these things for yourselves, and at that point, and after having read what I have from the records of Myopia, you can decide for yourselves what they mean and whether this endless discussion on here without that contemporaneous material from the club or clubs is necessary and relevent or not to the course's and architects factual history.

If you can do that----read what those contemporaneous administrative records, and what they say, and when they say it---the question becomes---will Myopia, or anyone else, be interested in your analysis and opinions with what else you bring to the table with newspaper articles like those on Myopia about Campbell or what MacWood calls "independent research?"   I couldn't possibly answer that until it happens but my feeling is at least you should try it and then and only then could you be on an equal footing with me to discuss a subject like this one, particularly with the subject club.

As for me, as you know I can't scan that material on here---I don't even know how---and if I did know how I really don't know if I would be willing to. Personally, I feel if you people are as interested in the architectural history of that club and subject, and other ones like it, as I am, or as you say on here you are, you would've found some way by now to have done what I've done.

[TEPaul]

"What, specifically, in the club records contradicts these three articles?"


David:

As I'm sure you know, there is only one way for you to find that out, at least the way you couch this subject and the research of it. So, the question becomes, why don't you? I did, and about 5-6 years ago. Does it take some time and money? Of course it does but I did it because I was so intereted in that history. If you are as interested as I was and am, I think you need to prove it and neither you nor MacWood or anyone else on this website can prove it on just a thread on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com without doing the work of going to the source which is the subject. There are certainly telephones, faxes, the Internet or whatever, but my experiences have told me it should probably be more than that when it comes to a show of interest!  

[Tom MacWood]

Tom aacWood,

Why couldn't it be that the members staked out the locations of the holes and then had Campbell in to lay out the course on the ground, building tees, greens, and bunkers?

If the Myopia "run book" is correct, and we have no reason to believe otherwise, that would be the most plausible scenario, yes?

Mike
Do you know what the 'run book' is? The majority of the direct quotes from the run book are related to hunting (after all it is a hunt club first and foremost). TEP has misled you into believing it is some sort key to the course's architecture. He has never seen the book and apparently it is lost, but that is no great loss from golfing perspective.

[Tom MacWood]

"TEPaul,   The June 1894 newspaper articles read as if someone associated with the club provided the information to the paper, and as you know this was often how things worked with club events   Why would every account state that Willie Campbell laid out the course if he did not?"


David:

I just can't answer that; at least not with anything I've seen from the records of Myopia from that time. I looked back in this thread and I can see a year and a half ago I mentioned that I had read the contemporaneous administrative records of Myopia that recorded that three members routed, staked out or laid out or whatever anyone wants to call it a nine hole golf course in 1894 and before Campbell ever arrived in America.

So, if you ask me why some newspaper accounts mentioned that Campbell laid out the original nine rather than those three members that the club administrative records mentioned was done by three members before he arrived, what do you think I should say to you or about that?

I mean I have my own ideas about why those newspaper accounts in May or June or August or September of 1894 may've said that about Willie Campbell but you probably don't want to hear my ideas and what I read from the records of Myopia in the Spring of 1894 before Campbell arrived and particularly after I have read through this thread from a year and a half ago and noticed what people like you and MacWood and Jim Kennedy said when I mentioned some of the same things I am mentioning now and feeling now.

Judging from those posts a year and a half ago (essentially from about #106 to a little over #200) it seems it would be best to just let you guys discuss this with what you have; it does not appear you are that interested in what I've read unless I can scan it or copy it onto GOLFLUBATLAS.com.

My only response and reaction, at this point, is to encourage you all to just go and read what I've read and decide these things for yourselves, and at that point, and after having read what I have from the records of Myopia, you can decide for yourselves what they mean and whether this endless discussion on here without that contemporaneous material from the club or clubs is necessary and relevent or not to the course's and architects factual history.

If you can do that----read what those contemporaneous administrative records, and what they say, and when they say it---the question becomes---will Myopia, or anyone else, be interested in your analysis and opinions with what else you bring to the table with newspaper articles like those on Myopia about Campbell or what MacWood calls "independent research?"   I couldn't possibly answer that until it happens but my feeling is at least you should try it and then and only then could you be on an equal footing with me to discuss a subject like this one, particularly with the subject club.

As for me, as you know I can't scan that material on here---I don't even know how---and if I did know how I really don't know if I would be willing to. Personally, I feel if you people are as interested in the architectural history of that club and subject, and other ones like it, as I am, or as you say on here you are, you would've found some way by now to have done what I've done.

I think you imagined you read the club's administrative records from 1894. If administrative records were available from 1894 wouldn't have Weeks quoted from them? He did not. You would also think the administrative records would have some mention of Campbell, you nor Weeks knew anything about his involvement with the club.

[DMoriarty]

TEPaul,

Whatever old posts you've read, perhaps we should just move forward and let bygones be.   

I understand that you've concluded that the three staked out the course sometime before Campbell arrived, and surely you have your reasons for so concluding.  But that is your analysis and your conclusion.  While that may be enough to satisfy Jeff Brauer and Mike Cirba, I can't in good conscience simply adopt your conclusions without having analyzed the information myself.  The same would be true if it were Tom MacWood, Tom Doak, George Bahto, or anyone else drawing conclusions that appear contrary to the information I have.

It would be one thing if the available historical record supported the Weeks version, but it doesnt.  And surely Weeks might have reconsidered had he access to these newspaper articles.  As a historian he must have known that these things are always shifting as more information becomes available.

All that said, I haven't asked to you scan anything or post anything from Myopia's record, and at this point I would be extremely surprised if you did.  If the goal is getting the truth out there, then don't understand why you wouldn't want to whether asked or not, but then that is your decision, not mine.  It is not personal, it is just the  way things are supposed to work in order to maximize the possibility of getting out what really happened.

As for your suggestion that I go to Myopia and figure it out myself, that'd be great but I don't think it is all that realistic, at least not for me.  I don't have relationships or connections with Myopia and frankly I don't believe in fostering relationships solely for the purpose of gaining access to clubs, whether it be to golf or to research.  Plus this research stuff is a fairly small part of my life in the greater scheme of things, and Myopia is far down my priority list.

Besides, it is you who is making the claim about what happened at Myopia, not me.  I'm not going to devote my life to try to prove you wrong or right, especially not when three newspaper articles clearly address the matter.

[TEPaul]

"I understand that you've concluded that the three staked out the course sometime before Campbell arrived, and surely you have your reasons for so concluding.  But that is your analysis and your conclusion.  While that may be enough to satisfy Jeff Brauer and Mike Cirba, I can't in good conscience simply adopt your conclusions without having analyzed the information myself."


Then go see them and read them yourself, David Moriarty, as I did. I have read them and I'm satisfied with what they say about everything, including Appleton, Merrill, Gardner and Willie Campbell (or the lack of the mentioning him). And I'm just weary of brain-dead contributors and contributions like MacWood as is best evidenced by his recent #485. He doesn't even know the difference between the seemingly lost "Leeds Scrapbook" and the Run Book which is how Myopia used to refer to their administrative records---but would you expect someone to understand that who said on here that he's totally familiar with fox hunting and that it is only chasing fox all over the entire countrysid? 

There is no reason for me to continue on a thread like this one with people like you and MacWood. Enjoy your discussion---I can guarantee no one of any importance cares what it is----certainly Myopia doesn't.

[DMoriarty]

Tom MacWood,

Can you confirm those hole distances you listed for 1896?   If the distances you listed are correct then there is little doubt that the nines were the same in 1896 and 1898.    Given when Leeds joined the club that would seem to be fairly significant.

[Tom MacWood]

I'm still trying to find the source. I can confirm the total yardage in 1896 was 2836 (Boston Globe), and 2865 in 1898 (Boston Globe and The Golfer).

[DMoriarty]

Thanks Tom.

_____________________________________

I am still quite curious as to why these Myopia members were in Hamilton more than two months before the summer social season began?  I take it from the silence on the issue that no one can think of any reason why these three were out in Hamilton waiting for the snow to melt.  

I suspect that this is because no course would be laid out until they (and Willie Campbell) moved north for the summer.  This is consistent with all the available reports, including the one from gossip column in the Boston Globe on May 13, 1894, which indicated that the course had not yet been laid out.   (quoted above by Mike)  

The same article indicates that sheep would be used to maintain the course.   Another article credits Willie Campbell with the introduction of sheep at the Country Club to maintain the links their links.

[Tom MacWood]

Its my impression June 1, or thereabouts, was the start of the season. On May 13 it was reported in the Boston Globe that Hopkins, Dacres Bush, Parker and few others would take up their quarters at the Kennel on June 1. In the same paper it was reported Polo practice would begin at the end of June. Myopia's champion polo team was Agassiz, Appleton, Shaw and Gardner.

Campbell's first day at Brookline was April 10 and there was a foot and a half of snow on the ground. In mid-May Appleton and Merrill were still at Brookline. They were in the gallery of the Willie Campbell vs Willie Davis match on May 18, the pseudo national championship won by Campbell. On June 10 it was reported the 'expert players' WB Thomas, RM Appleton, AP Gardner and TW Merrill would take part in the inaugural golf match at Myopia on Bunker Hill day. Thomas was the man who brought Campbell to Boston.

Sheep were introduced at Brookline, Essex County, Myopia and Franklin Park.

[TEPaul]

"I am still quite curious as to why these Myopia members were in Hamilton more than two months before the summer social season began?  I take it from the silence on the issue that no one can think of any reason why these three were out in Hamilton waiting for the snow to melt."


David:

Of course there could be a good reason. First of all, the North Shore of Boston is a rather large area comprising a number of summer communities about 10-25 miles north of Boston of which Hamilton is one of about twenty or more. The people who populated those summer communities and their clubs lived in other places in the winter; mostly in Boston but also in the other metropolitan cities of the East. If men such as Appleton, Merrill and Gardner, all of whom had large summer estates on the North Shore, had it in their minds they intended to introduce golf to the Myopia Hunt Club they were more than capable of going to Hamilton to stake out a nine hole golf course any time they decided to do that. The members who decided to introduce golf to Myopia Hunt Club informed the club that they could have a nine hole course ready for play in three months. The nine hole course opened for play around June 1, 1894. You do the math!

[Travis Dewire]

It should also be notted, that the original Myopia Club occupied what is now, Winchester CC. From (I believe) 8, 9, or 10, a par 3 downhill, you receive a breathtaking view of the boston skyline, so you at not too far.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myopia_Club

[Travis Dewire]

not like the philadelphia families and new york families traveling to Newport. Hamilton was not a long trip from their estates found to the North of Boston, and I would guess it would even be doable coming from the south in Dedham

[TEPaul]

"On May 13 it was reported in the Boston Globe that Hopkins, Dacres Bush, Parker and few others would take up their quarters at the Kennel on June 1."


Tom MacWood:

Is that really what the Boston Globe reported?? My Goodness, no wonder most of those men from Myopia Hunt Club, the foremost being Herbert C. Leeds, did not like the press and would throw them off the property if they came around. Perhaps the Boston Globe actually did report those men would take up their quarters in the Kennel on June 1. THAT must have given those guys one helluva laugh. Maybe the Boston Globe considered them to be a bunch of dogs or hounds ready to take up their summer residence in the Kennel but I can guarantee you all of those men had some really impressive summer residences sprinkled around Boston's North Shore.  

It looks to me like your primary source of information on this stuff (your newspaper accounts  ) is pretty odd, pretty factually unreliable and actually incredibly funny! Could you post that article in the Boston Globe that says those men are about to take up their summer residence in the KENNEL?? I feel the need for a good laugh too, as I'm quite sure they had if that's what some Boston Globe May 13 article said!  

[TEPaul]

Travis:

Thanks for your help in explaining to these few "expert researcher/historians" who've apparently never been there what the social realities and geographic proximity of Boston's North Shore are all about. Even though they asked the question about the "season" or whatever, I have a hunch they will probably lambast both of us for our explanations, claiming we are trying to divert this thread or whatever.   

Some of this stuff and some of these threads really are funny sometimes!  

I have a feeling the next thing we will see is a laundry list of the weather conditions of the first half of 1894!  

[Travis Dewire]

http://books.google.com/books?id=xolPAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA121&dq=myopia+hunt+club&hl=en&ei=j5H-TO_WKYTGlQfGkK24CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=myopia%20hunt%20club&f=false


interesting read, but has to do with the hunting at the club, not the golf.


How can you be certain that all members lived in Boston?


At the Turn of the century, many of Boston's elite were moving into quasi suberbs, Newton, Wellesley, Brookline, Winchester, Lexington, all over the greater Boston area. I dont think you can say all members came from Boston. What about the elite that resided in more country/farm like estates?? Of course it had to be a summer club, do you golf and hunt in a Massachusetts January? Not sure i know of any outdoor sporting club, not to be a summer club

Why couldn't they be there in Winter? They were just beginning to move club operations to Hamilton. They were just constructing new facilities. The club was growing in scope. Why not be there to oversee certain things? Even in off season? What if a storm came and they were forced to stay there? What if the club house had not yet been built, or quarters had not yet been built, and that was their only option? How do you know these forefathers of the club, and their personalities? They could have even wanted to stay on site, in shoddy overnight conditions because that was the price they were paying to build their summer club, and they were willing?

Too ambiguous to make any assumptions on a little newspaper clipping, IMO.

Even in bugey, its not a far trip to Hamilton from greater Boston area, and given these gentleman's economic position, few could have even had cars, and driven!

[TEPaul]

Travis:

Was your last post and the questions in it to me?

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