[TEPaul]

"This jives with what TEP has been selling us all along, although he seems to be altering his version slightly because he now appears the Long Nine existed prior to Leeds joining the club in 1896 (based on the 1895 report in the Boston paper).

Because of the lack of documented support it appears speculation plays a major part in Weeks account and for that reason I am skeptical of just about everything written in it. Also the fact he has no clue Campbell was involved makes his account highly dubious in my opinion."


Tom MacWood:

I am not and have not altered any version of the evolution of the architecture of Myopia. It appears you have misread or misunderstood something I said and thereby called it another version. You have been pretty good at doing that on this website. Leeds developed the Long Nine and that's a fact that is recorded by the club and by Weeks many years later when he wrote this history book which served as a centennial history of Myopia----eg "Myopia, 1875-1975"

Myopia's history does not become fact when someone copies and scans all the details of it on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com----it is fact because the records of the club confirm it and that is what Weeks was looking at when he wrote history book.  

Weeks did describe only six holes of the 1894 nine as I mentioned on here some pages back. That is because three holes that were on or mostly on Dr. S.A. Hopkins' land did not survive on the Long Nine which was developed in 1896-97 and used for the 1898 US Open. They were replaced by three holes on the "uphill" portion of the property. But the club did record that Dr. Hopkins' land was used for a part of the original 1894 nine. Perhaps you don't understand where Dr Hopkins' land was but the club did and does and so do I.

As far as Willie Campbell is concerned obviously you think he was all important to Myopia and that original nine but just as obviously the club didn't think that back then. I'm quite sure he did something at Myopia in the spring of 1894 but he did not lay out that original nine; three members of Myopia Hunt Club did that.

This subject of Myopia isn't much different from the problems you've had understanding the details of the history of Merion East. If you want to understand these things about the history of Myopia or Merion or any other club you're going to basically have to get off your ass and actually go to these clubs and research their historical material from the time in question.

But if you want to be skeptical of what any of it says without doing that then that's your prerogagative and I doubt anyone really cares what you think or say. I know Myopia doesn't and either do I.

[Tom MacWood]

Post #383
“No, the original 1894 nine was not changed PRIOR to 1896; it begun to be changed in 1896 or shortly thereafter when Herbert C. Leeds came from the CC of Brookline to Myopia Hunt club and was asked to change it; which he did into what has long been called the "Long Nine" on which the 1898 US Open was played; the first US Open that was separated in time and place from the US Amateur!”


Post #437
MikeC asks: "Why did Leeds need to be a member to have designed the Long Nine?"

"Apparently the only reason is because Tom MacWood seems to think that has to be necessary for some odd reason. But as you say Leeds was certainly never unknown to Myopia before he joined the club from Brookline. He also apparently has no idea what Boston was like then (and actually still is) in that all those people pretty much know one another anyway no matter which of those prominent old golf clubs they belong to. I suppose he's just trying to bring up all these irrelevent points and questions because ultimately he is trying to make it look like Willie Campbell actually had more to do with the development of Myopia's course than he ever did have. He is trying to do with Campbell and Myopia about the same thing he tried to do with HH Barker and Merion East. This kind of thing is pretty much what Tom MacWood always tries to do on this website; haven't you noticed that yet?”


TEP
It would appear you are changing your story from post #383 and acknowledging the course may have changed PRIOR to 1896, the year Leeds became a member. This proves you have no idea what happened and are simply speculating, like Weeks.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

If that's the best you can do it really is a waste of time for anyone to discuss the architectural history of Myopia with you. I notice you even listed Myopia as a Willie Campbell golf course above!   That's ridiculous because it isn't; it's a Herbert C. Leeds golf course and everyone who knew anything about golf back then and who knows anything about it today knows that except apparently you. Whatever Willie Campbell did for them in 1894 and it was probably something other than routing the holes, but it obviously wasn't much. Maybe he helped them sod the greens and level areas for tees because I doubt Appleton, Merrill and Gardner did that. If it had been something significant like routing and designing the course the club would've recorded it as they did everything else and everyone else that had anything significant to do with its history.

[Mike Cirba]

I asked the question a few days ago who had a more impressive resume than HJ Tweedie in 1900, and no one could come up with a name. I'm not sure if this is more impressive or not, but Willie Campbell's list of American designs is pretty impressive:

The Country Club, MA
Essex County, MA
Myopia Hunt, MA
Franklin Park, MA
Winchester, MA
Tatnuck, MA
Salem, MA
Topsfield, MA
Hawthorn, MA
Cambridge, MA
Nahant, MA
Wakefield, MA
Bridgewater, MA
Beaver Meadow, NH
Wannamoisett, RI
Merion Cricket, PA
Belmont Cricket, PA
Philadelphia, PA
Huntingdon Valley, PA
Moorestown Field, NJ



Tom,

I know you love to create seemingly authoritative listings, and especially love to do so if you think it simultaneously tweaks your regional and socio-economic biases, but I do have to point out that neither Philadelphia Country Club nor Belmont Cricket Club were designed by Mr. Campbell.

Philly CC was originally designed by another itinerant professional, Harry Gullane, with the Green Committee, and was mostly developed in the early years by member George T. Fowle.

Belmont was designed by Harrison Townsend, Dr. H. Toulmin of later Merion Committee fame, and Dr. J.A. Davis in 1896.   I believe later Campbell may have had plans to design a different course for the club, but don't believe that ever happened, as the Golf Association split from the Cricket Club, and became Aronimink.

Also, although Huntingdon Valley was originally designed by Campbell in 1897, notes in 1898 indicate that "The course as originally laid out by Campbell has lately been rearranged and extended by the Greens Committee".

Perhaps that "do it yourself" approach by these early clubs was simply foreshadowing things to come in Philadelphia. 

[TEPaul]

To understand the history of the architecture of Myopia the person to be discussing isn't Willie Campbell, it's Herbert C. Leeds. The man was pretty unusual in a number of ways, that's for damn sure. He may've been about as suspicious and stand-offish with the press as anyone I've ever heard of involved in golf course architecture (has anyone EVER seen an actual interview with Herbert Leeds?  )? Frankly, the guy was an out and out martinet and Myopia has always been well aware of that and actually recorded it. I know it personally because Denny Boardman was his nephew and he had some amazing stories about him, that's for sure.

But if you guys want to go on page after page speculating about the importance of Willie Campbell to the history of the architecture of Myopia, be my guest, but it's a total red herring. The architectural history at the golf club is actually remarkably complete for a club of that age.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

Your Campbell list includes many not on the list done by CW in architects of golf and has apparently missed some that were on theCW list, including the two he did in GBI before coming to America.  Out of curiosity, why did you skip those, and what are your sources for the others on the list?  Were you able to find more newspaper articles mentioning his name in connection with those courses?

Really just curious, even though I know it is slightly OT to the main discussion.

[Mike Cirba]

Jeff,

C&W lists Torresdale-Frankford as 9 by Campbell, which is in error.

[Mike Cirba]

Mike Cirba, This would be a lot more productive if you refrained from misrepresenting the factual record.  

For example, you claim that "By May 13th [1894] we know that the location of the holes had already been determined, as the articles mentioned one could see the whole course from the high vantage point."   We "know"  this? Nonsense.  The article mentions the general location of where the course would be laid out.  It says nothing about whether or not the holes had been planned!  In fact, the article is clear that the course had not yet been laid out, and that one would be able to to see much of the course when it was laid out.  It says nothing about planning.   As for your hypocrisy regarding the meaning of the verb "to lay out," it is beyond the pale and deserves no comment.

For another example, you wrote that "we also know that by early June the course was played, probably in something of an exhibition, by Appleton, Gardner, and Merrill . . . "  Huh? An exhibition match?  Surely you aren't referring to the June 10th article are you?    Because that article DOES NOT mention anything about exhibition match that had already taken place.   Rather, the article mentions only the Myopia tournament that would take place on "Bunker Hill Day" which is June 17th, the day of the opening tournament.  You know, the tournament after which three different newspapers stated that Willie Campbell had laid out the course.  

You also base your conclusions on "the club's contemporaneous records," yet you haven't seen those records, have you?  

As for your blatant attempt to exaggerate the qualifications of many involved (exhibition matches, "experts") give us a break already.

Really Mike, your penchant for hyperbolic and unsupported conclusions doesnt help matters.  

David,

I'm not sure why the grumpy attitude over the newly discovered news articles I presented, or my opinion about what they mean, but I would suggest Metamucil as I understand it's both "new" and "improved" and you're clearly in need.  

For starters, I'm at a loss to understand how guys whose entire modus operandi is to seek the "truth" solely through newspaper articles and web searches failed to find a single article documenting the heavy involvement and authorized responsibility for the course by these members through the spring of 1894.

I spent literally five minutes with a rather crude tool and came up with more to document the Myopia members', HC Leeds, and Willie Campbell's activities during that year than has happened over the many months of this thread.

Are you guys searching for the truth, or searching to try to debunk the official story as documented in the contemporaneous meeting minutes?   I guess if you are looking for evidence of anyone but the official story that's all you'll find.

Secondly, it wasn't me who called Merrill, Appleton, and Gardner "experts".   It was the contemporaneous news article written a few days before the course opened.

Also, it wasn't me who claimed that one could view the "entire" course from the high vantage point...it was the contemporaneous news articles from May of that year that you and I both posted.   How the hell could that be claimed if they didn't know at that point where the holes of the course were going to be located??

And yes, they were still needing to be "laid out", in your parlance, as in "laid the holes on the ground" after they'd been staked out by the members, which is where I think Willie Campbell helped and where he was credited in the local papers after the course opened.

Ask yourself this...which is more preposterous?

A group of aristocratic members at Myopia known as local golf "experts", one of whom already has a golf course on his property, stake out a course on the property sometime between April and May 1894, and then hire a newly arrived hired hand with expertise in these matters in the form of Willie Campbell to oversee construction...

or

A group of aristocratic members like HG Lloyd and Rodman Griscom were appointed to oversee field construction to someone else's plans?    

Have a nice day.  

[DMoriarty]

David
The only problem with your take on how '94 may have looked is the current second hole being involved. If you look at the names of the holes in 1894, if begins Kennels, Miles River, etc. I would think based on the names of the holes your second and third hole should be one and two.

I am pretty sure that "kennels" is the current 2nd hole.  At least that was the name for it in 1898.  My guess is that the outbuilding marked "garage" on the 1910 atlas posted above was the location of the original kennels.    But the next being called "Miles River" is a bit curious, given that in 1901 the current 4th (not the 3rd) was "Miles River."   That said, the name would at least make sense for either hole as the current 3rd plays to the river and the 4th parallels it.  

Another problem, the idea that the original nine was changed (and it is possible it was changed) is based on Weeks account. To my knowledge no one has found any contemporaneous reports that the course was changed, with the possible exception of the report in 1895 that said the links was new.

Actually I am trying not to rely on Weeks at all, but rather am trying to focus in information contemporaneous with the creation.   Rather, I am focusing on the descriptions of the course from 1898 and the names of the holes from 1894.   The names of the 1898 holes match for 1894's 1st (kennels) and then 6th through 9th (bulrushes, hills-alps, dell-valley, pond) so it may be a matter of finding the three holes in between.

The reason I think it most likely changed after 1894 is because I am pretty certain the location of the holes from 1896 were the current 1st, 8th, 9th, 10th tee to somewhere around the 11th green, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, and 16th.   I don't know this from Weeks, but from contemporaneous descriptions of the holes.   So we have the opposite issue I mentioned to TEPaul, and the names of these holes don't match with the names and apparent hole order of all the original holes.  For example there is no hole in that nine which could reasonably be called Miles River.

Speaking of which, can you post again where you got the hole distances from 1896?  I can't recall.   Thanks.  

This is what Weeks said in his history: We know the first links was on land of the club and of Dr. Hopkins. He does not say how he knows this. He also says the layout of the course is matter of speculation. He has no idea how the course was configured (he also says the holes on the ridge were not completed for couple of years 1896). He then goes on to describe the course (six holes) as if he knows how the course was configured. He claims it started with the present #2, the present #8, then the present #9 (bullrushes), then the shorter version of the Alps, then the present 12th, then the Pond, the present sixth. That is six holes.

This highlights the issue I mentioned to TEPaul above.  This routing works as a six hole course, but when you try to fit in three more between Weeks' 1st (current second) and Weeks' 2nd (current 8th) you run in to routing problems.


Mike Cirba,

My criticisms of your conclusions from those articles are on point.   There is nothing in those articles indicating that the holes had been planned prior to Campbell's arrival, and you really botched the bit about the play on Bunker Hill day, for just two examples.  And Mike, I may be mistaken but believe all those articles have come to light before.  

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

I know you love to create seemingly authoritative listings, and especially love to do so if you think it simultaneously tweaks your regional and socio-economic biases, but I do have to point out that neither Philadelphia Country Club nor Belmont Cricket Club were designed by Mr. Campbell.

Philly CC was originally designed by another itinerant professional, Harry Gullane, with the Green Committee, and was mostly developed in the early years by member George T. Fowle.

Belmont was designed by Harrison Townsend, Dr. H. Toulmin of later Merion Committee fame, and Dr. J.A. Davis in 1896.   I believe later Campbell may have had plans to design a different course for the club, but don't believe that ever happened, as the Golf Association split from the Cricket Club, and became Aronimink.

Also, although Huntingdon Valley was originally designed by Campbell in 1897, notes in 1898 indicate that "The course as originally laid out by Campbell has lately been rearranged and extended by the Greens Committee".

Perhaps that "do it yourself" approach by these early clubs was simply foreshadowing things to come in Philadelphia. 

Mike
Early in the thread Joe Bausch produced an article from the Phila Inquirer that said Campbell assisted Gullane at Philadelphia CC. Joe also produced an article from the Inquirer that Campbell laid out Belmont Cricket. Belmont went under in 1912. According to the Golf Course Guide of 1900 Campbell designed Huntingdon Valley.

[Tom MacWood]

To understand the history of the architecture of Myopia the person to be discussing isn't Willie Campbell, it's Herbert C. Leeds. The man was pretty unusual in a number of ways, that's for damn sure. He may've been about as suspicious and stand-offish with the press as anyone I've ever heard of involved in golf course architecture (has anyone EVER seen an actual interview with Herbert Leeds?  )? Frankly, the guy was an out and out martinet and Myopia has always been well aware of that and actually recorded it. I know it personally because Denny Boardman was his nephew and he had some amazing stories about him, that's for sure.

But if you guys want to go on page after page speculating about the importance of Willie Campbell to the history of the architecture of Myopia, be my guest, but it's a total red herring. The architectural history at the golf club is actually remarkably complete for a club of that age.

This thread was started to discuss Willie Campbell's involvement early on. I don't think this thread has done any damage to or discounted Leeds's major contribution. However your reaction to new information involving Campbell has been a little bizarre, although not unprecedented.

[Tom MacWood]

TMac,

Your Campbell list includes many not on the list done by CW in architects of golf and has apparently missed some that were on theCW list, including the two he did in GBI before coming to America.  Out of curiosity, why did you skip those, and what are your sources for the others on the list?  Were you able to find more newspaper articles mentioning his name in connection with those courses?

Really just curious, even though I know it is slightly OT to the main discussion.

I didn't include his UK courses even though are quite a few. I chose to concentrate on his American work since this thread deals with that. I've not been able to confirm Torresdale or Oakley yet.

[Mike Cirba]

David,

If any contemporaneous news articles citing the activities and/or golf course responsibilities of Merrill, Gardner, and Appleton in the spring of 1894 have been found prior, let's just say no one saw fit to publish them here prior.

One would reasonably think that any part of finding "the truth" would have included some search on their whereabouts and/or responsibilities during spring of 1894, but alas...

We now know that by mid April it was already being reported that they were assigned to a subcommittee charged with bringing golf to Myopia, and we also now know they were viewed as local golf experts.

The Myopia internal records evidently mention that they staked out the course after the snow cleared in spring of 1894.   That is much more likely to be April 15th than May 15th around Boston, don't you think?

Otherwise, what do you think they were doing between the time they were appointed to the subcommittee as men with golf experience (experts) to bring golf to Myopia sometime before that April 15th report and May 13th when it was reported that you could watch play across the entire course from the high vantage point?   Waiting for Willie Campbell to come up from Brookline on the other side of the city?

[Tom MacWood]

David
My thought is the current #3 would be Kennels because that is where the kennels were located and the next hole today is Miles River (and back then too). The current #2 is not all that close to the kennels.

I have the yardage in 1896 as follows though I'm not able pinpoint where I got that info. I do have the source (Boston Globe) for the total yardage at 2836 in 1896. If the course did change I suspect it happened in 1895, not 1896.
          
380 -              
423 -              
100 -              
250 -              
300 -                
250 -              
400 -              
510 -                
250 -              

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

I'm familiar with the 1896 article that Joe produced about Belmont that said Campbell was going to lay out 3 courses...an 18, a 9, and a women's course, but it evidently never happened to my knowledge as the members were still playing on the 9 hole course laid out by Toulmin, Townsend, et.al. by 1898.

The Philadelphia Country Club article says the plans were the work of the Committee that Fowle was on, with "suggestions" from Gullane and Campbell.   I'm not sure how that connotes authorship for Campbell, but whatever.

Campbell did the original design at Huntingdon Valley, but like I said, it was changed and extended within a year by the Greens Committee and the changes were evidently extensive enough that they were noted to outside sources.

[TEPaul]

"This highlights the issue I mentioned to TEPaul above.  This routing works as a six hole course, but when you try to fit in three more between Weeks' 1st (current second) and Weeks' 2nd (current 8th) you run in to routing problems."


You don't run into routing problems at all and that you think so is just another example of both how and why you don't seem to understand that course or its land which isn't much wonder since you've never been there. As I've explained a number of times already those three holes were on or mostly on Dr. S.A. Hopkins' property, but perhaps you aren't even aware of where it was. Logically, those three holes on the original 1894 nine ran from the present second hole probably to a green about where #4 is today. From there the next probably ran on top of the ridge to the right of today's #7 and then back down what is now #7 to next to the 8th tee which was #5 on the original 1894 routing. Those holes (#2-4) would be on or mostly on Hopkins' land just as the records of the club said they were on the original 1894. This isn't rocket science, it's actually very logical and easy to deduce for anyone familiar with the history contained in the documents OF the club itself, and not in some newspaper articles which are necessarily indirect, particularly in that day and age!

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
WB Thomas brought Campbell over early in 1894, and it was a big deal on both sides of the Atlantic. Thomas was a prominent member of Brookline, Essex County and Myopia (and future president of the USGA). In May it was reported Myopia had yet lay out their golf course, and I assume the snow was gone by then. I don't think it makes any sense that any of these early country clubs would choose not have Campbell lay out their golf course; he was arguably the most experienced and qualified man in the country and he had just been brought to Boston for the purpose of teaching and developing the sport. Boston newspapers reported at the time Campbell laid out Brookline, Essex County and Myopia. There is no mention in print (that I have found) of the Squire & Co. or anyone else laying out those courses. Weeks and TEP's story makes no sense in my opinion, and there is no documented support for it. Is there?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

We are both very close to slipping over the total hypocrisy line from opposing directions here, but couldn't the course have been staked out prior to May and still not "laid out" on the ground at that time?

Could you cite for me where that was reported?   Thanks.

By the way...I think both things are true.

I think Merrill, Gardner, and Appleton staked out the original course and Campbell laid it on the ground, probably making revisions as he saw fit, but likely not doing much but helping them get a working course up and going.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacWood,

I'm familiar with the 1896 article that Joe produced about Belmont that said Campbell was going to lay out 3 courses...an 18, a 9, and a women's course, but it evidently never happened to my knowledge as the members were still playing on the 9 hole course laid out by Toulmin, Townsend, et.al. by 1898.

The Philadelphia Country Club article says the plans were the work of the Committee that Fowle was on, with "suggestions" from Gullane and Campbell.   I'm not sure how that connotes authorship for Campbell, but whatever.

Campbell did the original design at Huntingdon Valley, but like I said, it was changed and extended within a year by the Greens Committee and the changes were evidently extensive enough that they were noted to outside sources.

The 1900 golf course guide claims Aronimink was organized in 1896 and 9-hole course was laid out that same year. It then give the names and yardages of the holes. Aronimink evidently split from Belmont in 1899 and taken over its golf course. I'm giving Campbell credit advising PCC and the original design of Huntingdon Valley.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacWood,

We are both very close to slipping over the total hypocrisy line from opposing directions here, but couldn't the course have been staked out prior to May and still not "laid out" on the ground at that time?

Could you cite for me where that was reported?   Thanks.

By the way...I think both things are true.

I think Merrill, Gardner, and Appleton staked out the original course and Campbell laid it on the ground, probably making revisions as he saw fit, but likely not doing much but helping them get a working course up and going.

What evidence have you seen that supports that theory?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Were the hole names;

Hurdle
Bunker
Hoodoo Hollow
The Cedars
Hump Back
Long Ridge
Round Top
Pons Asinorum
Home wood

?

If so, that's Townsend and Toulmin's course.

p.s.   Which report in May said that Myopia hadn't been "laid out" yet?   Thanks.

[Tom MacWood]

I, Cherry Tree, 240; 2, Bunker, 450; 3, Hoodoo Hollow,
330; 4, The Cedars, 175 ; 5, Hunchback, 248; 6, Long Ridge, 280 ; 7, Round
Top, 170; 8, Pons Asinorum, 520; 9, Homewood, 265.

Townsend is president of the club; the course was laid in December 1896, and no mention of a change in 1898.

Regarding the May article see post #385.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

That would be the course laid out in 1896 by Dr. Harry Toulmin, Harrison Townsend, and Dr. J.A. Davis.   It sounds as though they renamed their first hole, as the location of the 2nd tee and the fact that the hole was land locked between a road and the ninth hole would have made moving it somewhere else extremely unlikely.

I have the first hole listed at 257 yards....how about you?

Somewhat ironically, the 3rd green was surrounded on 3 sides by a creek, and the 4th green sat at the edge of a quarry...shades of Merion!  

Also ironically, young Hugh Wilson was a member and something of a boy wonder as he held the course record, and was the only scratch player in the club.   The next best golfer was Harrison Townsend with an 8 handicap.

***EDIT*** I think my yardages might be a bit more precise...

257
441
371
158
244
264
174
515
289
Total 2713

[TEPaul]

The actual yardage of the 1898 Long Nine was 2928.

The original first hole (2nd today) on the original 1894 nine was only about 300 yards with the green far short and to the left of the present green (the green was just short of today's 3rd tee). The old tees of the original 1894 1st hole (today's 2nd hole) can still be seen far down the hillside. Today's #8 was about 400 and today's 12th was originally about 300 on the 1894 nine with its green far short of today's green. From there you played over the pond on the 9th (the pond cannot even be seen today; it's in the woods to the left of #13). The original 6th hole of the 1894 nine (today's 9th) was only 100 yards, there was no pond and the green was apparently in a bit of a bowl, very unlike the long narrow deep bunkered green there now and there on perhaps the Long Nine and certainly on the 1900 eighteen hole course.

[TEPaul]

"There is no mention in print (that I have found) of the Squire & Co. or anyone else laying out those courses. Weeks and TEP's story makes no sense in my opinion, and there is no documented support for it. Is there?"


Tom MacWood:

So, let me get this straight; do you actually think if you can't find something in a newspaper account it didn't happen or its not true? You really should get off your ass in front of your computer in Ohio and start actually visiting these subjects and doing the necessary historic research on site. Of course this doesn't make sense to you----eg you don't know what the place looks like and you're dealing with far less than complete historic information. If you had actually read what Weeks was obviously looking at and what I've read you may have a chance at understanding most of this but knowing you perhaps even that wouldn't do it.

Until you actually visit the likes of Merion GC, MCC and Myopia I can certainly see from all this there is obviously no point trying to discuss the details of their original architectural history with you. You either can't seem to understand what others tell you who've seen this material or you refuse to believe them so it would be better if you just went to read it and research it yourself and then maybe a discussion about it could be more productive with you.
 
 
 

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()