[Phil_the_Author]

Mike,

Do you know what was meant by the phrase "two newly laid out golf links..." in the June 10th, 1894, article you quoted from?

That is a very intriguing statement...

[Mike Cirba]

Phil.

I don't know for certain but would speculate it meant two new holes, possibly..

[Mike Cirba]

Also interesting that they were already known as local "experts" at that time.

Deja vu, anyone?

[Phil_the_Author]

Mike,

If that was true, your speculation that it meant two HOLES, then the idea that the entire nine hole course was finished and open for play 8 days later on June 18th must certainly be called into question.

This article requires research as it certainly can be construed in a number of different ways that can discount the different reported understandings of what took place...

[Mike Cirba]

Phil,

We do know the course opened though on the 18th with nine holes in play, so perhaps these members  were trying out the final two, perhaps with an audience of curious onlookers?

[DMoriarty]

"As you know, I've never been to Myopia, but the pictured hole seems to correspond to what is marked as the 2nd tee on the later maps.   If so, then as of the 1898 Open the first tee was still not next to the clubhouse."

David:

That's correct. As of the 1898 US Open the first tee was still not next to the clubhouse. In the 1898 US Open the first tee was what is today the 2nd tee. When Leeds developed the full eighteen hole course that was used in the 1901 US Open the present first hole was in play. You can see its green in your third photograph on the preceding page (the photo caption reads "The First Green. David Brown putting").

By the way, there are some other photographs of Myopia in The Golfer of 1898. That magazine was the official publication of the USGA (and some other associations). As you know I don't know how to post photographs and such on here. Do you have access to that magazine?

Great.   That is what I thought.    I will take a look for the photographs later.  

You wrote:

Therefore, I will explain to you where those three holes were (albeit not exactly what they were because there is no known record of what they were extant today that I’m aware of or that Weeks was aware of) that have heretofore been unaccounted for on the 1894 nine by everyone other than me (I explained this to Myopia a year or two ago).

Those three 1894 holes were almost entirely on Dr S.A. Hopkins property and they are named in that article above "Miles River," "Shooting Box," and "Track." From "Track" the next hole was "School" which is today the 8th hole and was the 2nd hole on Leeds' "Long Nine" which was used for the 1898 US Open. There were no holes in play on the Long Nine on Dr S.A. Hopkins property. The three holes that replaced those three unaccounted for holes on the original 1894 nine (Miles River, Shooting Box, Track) on the Long Nine are "Orient", "High" and "Home"----#7, #8, #9 on the Long Nine and #14, #15 and #16 on the eighteen hole course Leeds developed and was used for the 1901.


TEPaul,  

I still haven't seen the course.  All the same, though, I don't think this is quite right.    Let me suggest an alternate routing.   Perhaps on opening day in 1894 the nine holes was . . .
1st.  The current 2nd (kennels)
2nd.  The current 3rd (Miles River)
3th.  The current 4th (shooting box)
4th.  The current 5th (track)
5th.  The current 6th (school)
6th.  The current 9th (bulrushes)
7th.  From the current 10th to current 11th green. (hills)
8th.  The current 12th (dale)
9th.  The current 13th (pond)

In other words, I suspect that the course pretty much looped around the property to the northeast, following the 2nd through the 13th, but skipping the 7th and 8th, and cutting from the 11th tee to the eighth green.  

As for the nine in use in 1898 (which I suspect had been around since 1895) I suspect that it left off the loop out on the Northeast part of the property (current 3rd-6th) and added in the current the 7th, 8th, 14th, 15th, and a longer version of the current 16th.  

So the routing would have been . . .

1st.  The current 2nd (kennels)
2nd.  The current 8th
3th.  The current 9th (bulrushes)
4th.  From the current 10th to current 11th green. (alps)
5th.  The current 12th (valley)
6th.  The current 13th (pond)
7th.  The current 14th (Orient)
8th.  The current 15th (high)
9th.  The current 16th (home)

Approximate of course.   I came up with these for multiple  reasons, but most these are based on what I've read and can glean about the holes, and from piecing together a routing that works.  

 Don't have time to explain now, but will try to later.

[TEPaul]

"You seem to be saying the original 1894 golf course was partially on land the club did not own."


That's exactly what I'm saying.


 "The club had 200+ acres at their disposal but for whatever reason they ventured off to an adjoining property. Where did you come up with this information?"


From the club's records. The club was a polo and Hunt Club before golf.


"What year did they decide they better get off Dr. Hopkins' land?"


They did not use his land when Leeds created the Long Nine. When Leeds created the eighteen hole course the club bought Dr. S.A. Hopkins 51 acres and that's were the end of #4 is and #5, #6 and most of #7 is today. They also leased some of Dacre Bush's land, the secretary of Myopia Hunt club for #10 until eventually buying it. The back driveway came in along #11 and at one point crossed over the beginning of #2.

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
What year did they decide they better get off Dr. Hopkins' land?

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

Please try not to ask so many pointless questions!

Thanks

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
I don't think it is pointless to ask when they decided to move from land they didn't own on to property they owned when they had 200+ acres to lay out a 9-hole course at the beginning. I think it is pretty crazy you believe they put themselves in that situation.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

What is really illustrative with this latest remark you've been making about Myopia Hunt having 200 acres to build a golf course in 1894 and therefore not understanding why they would use land of Dr Hopkins is how little you apparently understand the history and ethos of a club like that. It was a hunting and polo club before they established golf there and that was not an easy thing with that club.

If you still have access to Weeks' history book you should try reading the rest of the book about the polo and hunting interests of the club if you ever care to understand it, including why they would use Hopkins' land or Dacre Bush's. This also goes right to the nub of the naive and ridiculous remarks you've made in the past on this thread of the part R.M Appleton played in all this in 1894! By the way Appleton had a six hole golf course on his farm BEFORE golf came to Myopia in 1894!

This club did not move to South Hamilton to use land for a golf course, they went there as a polo and fox hunting club. Or perhaps you are under the impression that fox hunting and polo and golf can use the same ground!? Have you ever considered something as fundamental as what horse hooves do, Tom MacWood?   What this really illustrates is one is not a competent historian simply because he tells the participants of GOLFCLUBATLAS.com that he's an historian!

It is not the same dynamic today but it is certainly still there. I play golf at Myopia and for instance this last year was the first time in 135 years that golfers were allowed hit hit balls on one of the polo fields!

[Mike Cirba]

On that note, I find it very interesting that Appleton, et. al..Were known as "experts" in golf prior to the course even opening.

When was Campbell the pro at Myopia?

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
Don't worry I know all about fox hunting, you chase the fox over the entire countryside, where ever he takes you, but isn't that a little different then building permanent greens, tees and bunkers on someone else's land. And under your scenario they obviously realized at some point that it was a mistake and moved the holes on to their own land. Is that correct? What year did they move those three holes? Is that a difficult question.

Mike
Campbell was the pro at Brookline in 1894 and 1895 (he migrated to Essex during the summer of '94), the pro at Myopia in 1896, and was at the public links at Franklin Park from 1897 until his death in 1900. Leeds was at Brookline in 1894 and 1895, and moved Myopia in 1896.

[Mike Cirba]

Wasn't Dr. Hopkins a prominent member of the club and a very avid golfer?

Tom,

It appears from the articles I posted that Campbell was first at Essex in 1894 moving to Brookline in the fall that year...is that your understanding?

[Tom MacWood]

No, he was at Brookline in the spring of 1894, went to Essex for the summer, and was back at Brookline in the fall.

[Tom MacWood]

I also recall one blurb indicating that the course was changed for the 1895 golfing season.  If so, is it possible that changes these changes created the "long nine" before Leeds even joined the club?

There was a report in the Boston Daily Advertiser November 15, 1895:

"New links have been laid out this season which are pronounced the finest in the country by experts. They cover three miles and there are nine holes."

Three miles would make for a Very Long Nine...maybe they were calculating based on 18 holes. By the way CBM held the course record of 46.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Thanks.   What do you make of the Apr 15th report of a Prof. Campbell instructing and launching the golf season at Essex?  Do you think that was Willie?

[Tom MacWood]

What April 15 report? The April 15 report in the Boston Globe:

"At the Country club much earnestness and enthusiasm are displayed among the most prominent members. Instruction in the game is given daily by Prof. Campbell."

Yes, undoubtedly the Professor is Willie. On April 26 it was reported:

"Willie Campbell, the noted Scotch golf player, who is now at the Country club, will be at Manchester during the entire season, and will give instruction and exhibition games on the golf field frequently."

Manchester is Essex County Club.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Thanks, I see what you are saying.

It sounds almost like he was originally housed at Brookline during the early spring  because he was supposedly going to be at Essex when they opened their year June 10th and stayed til October.

[Tom MacWood]

There was a lot of crossover with these clubs. Brookline was a year round club closer to the center of town; Manchester was a summer colony. Many of the members of TCC would have had summer places up north.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

How long was a hors and carriage ride between BrOokline and South Hamilton do you figure?

[TEPaul]

"Wasn't Dr. Hopkins a prominent member of the club and a very avid golfer?"

Yes he was. He was of no real difference than Dacre Bush whose land they used a part of for #10 before buying it. Bush only asked for something like a dozen golf balls as an annual rent. 

Frankly, to truly understand the history of Myopia you don't need to understand just the land of the club but also who it was who lived around it.

[TEPaul]

"How long was a hors and carriage ride between BrOokline and South Hamilton do you figure?"


It's a hike---different sides of Boston basically. I did it this October and it took me over an hour in the am (rush hour) but most all of that was that God-Awful Rte 128. It was bad when I went to school up there fifty years ago.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Yes, its a bit of a jaunt as I realized this Oct playing Myopia in the morning and then driving down to play George Wright Muni, not far from Brookline in the afternoon.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Any thoughts on David's take on the original 1894 routing?

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