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DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #50 on: August 01, 2009, 01:03:19 PM »
James Campbell was an early professional at Torresdale and then at Belmont.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #51 on: August 01, 2009, 01:33:00 PM »
Melvyn,

.....as I have explained dozens of times, as I understand it the verb "to lay out" (or to "lay off" or "to lay down" or "to mark off" or to "stake out")  in the context of creating golf course meant arranging the golf course on the ground.    Generally (but not always) these early designers planned the course on the ground (as opposed to on a contour map or on a piece of paper) and marked out the course on the ground.  Generally, very little construction was involved.  They were simply marking off (laying off, laying out, staking out, etc.) a course.

The confusion came when designers started planning on a map, and when more significant construction was needed to complete the course.   In these cases, sometimes the person who planned the course was not the same as the person who laid it out.   I've pointed out numerous examples of this, where the person who "laid out" the course was different that the person who planned it.

In this case, I am not familiar with exactly how Campbell worked, but if he is said to have "laid out" a course, my assumption would be that he arranged the course on the ground.


David,

Could you provide some evidence of this? All those terms are used extensively in print from those times, and you should have no problem producing text that prove your point here.

Thanks,

Bradley

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #52 on: August 01, 2009, 04:20:36 PM »
I can't keep track of all these Campbells.  :)

Here is a blurb concerning Merion Cricket Club from the March 18, 1896 edition of the Philly Inquirer:



And here is a blurb concerning Belmont Country Club (which eventually becomes Aronimink) from the May 4, 1896 edition of the Philly Inquirer:



And here is a write-up concerning the 18 hole layout at Bala for the Philadelphia Country Club from the April 3, 1897 edition of the Philly Inquirer:



@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #53 on: August 01, 2009, 04:37:45 PM »
"I can't keep track of all these Campbells."

There's a soup-pot full, that's for sure.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #54 on: August 01, 2009, 04:45:38 PM »
Melvyn,

.....as I have explained dozens of times, as I understand it the verb "to lay out" (or to "lay off" or "to lay down" or "to mark off" or to "stake out")  in the context of creating golf course meant arranging the golf course on the ground.    Generally (but not always) these early designers planned the course on the ground (as opposed to on a contour map or on a piece of paper) and marked out the course on the ground.  Generally, very little construction was involved.  They were simply marking off (laying off, laying out, staking out, etc.) a course.

The confusion came when designers started planning on a map, and when more significant construction was needed to complete the course.   In these cases, sometimes the person who planned the course was not the same as the person who laid it out.   I've pointed out numerous examples of this, where the person who "laid out" the course was different that the person who planned it.

In this case, I am not familiar with exactly how Campbell worked, but if he is said to have "laid out" a course, my assumption would be that he arranged the course on the ground.


David,

Could you provide some evidence of this? All those terms are used extensively in print from those times, and you should have no problem producing text that prove your point here.

Thanks,

Bradley

I'd be glad to, but cannot right now, and I am not sure this thread is the appropriate place.  In the mean time, why don't you tell me what you would take as proof of my point?   
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #55 on: August 01, 2009, 04:49:36 PM »
Joe,
Was Willie Campbell the Forrest Gump of GCA in the latter years of the 19th century? Seems like he was everywhere.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #56 on: August 01, 2009, 04:50:45 PM »
Joe, there were at least two other professional Campbell's in Philadelphia, one named James and one named Willie.  

But I am pretty certain that it was the more famous Willie Campbell, out of Boston, that designed the early Merion Course.    This is the same Willie Campbell that Mike Cirba had the audacity to compare himself to.

Again, I believe that Merion credits members with the early course.  Can you confirm this in the Heilman book Mike?

Can't post anything right now.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 04:58:14 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike_Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #57 on: August 01, 2009, 05:06:11 PM »
Merion's original course was never credited to members, but to early pros from abroad.

You should see it...cross bunkers and earthen ramps abound.

Apparently David knows nothing of the history of that Merion courae either.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #58 on: August 01, 2009, 05:15:08 PM »
Merion's original course was never credited to members, but to early pros from abroad.

You should see it...cross bunkers and earthen ramps abound.

Apparently David knows nothing of the history of that Merion course either.

I've seen plenty of pictures of it, and know plenty about its history.  But I don't have Merion's history books handy, nor do I consider them reliable sources regarding Merion's earlier history.  For example, I know who designed the original course, which is more than you, Wayne, TEPaul, and Joe know, isn't it?  Correct me if I am wrong, though, with proof.  
« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 05:18:23 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike_Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #59 on: August 01, 2009, 05:17:59 PM »
David,

Are you two years old or did you have a recent birthday?

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #60 on: August 01, 2009, 05:20:31 PM »
David,

Are you two years old or did you have a recent birthday?

Mike if you don't want me to respond to your immature insults, don't immaturely insult me. . .

. . .
Apparently David knows nothing of the history of that Merion courae either.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #61 on: August 01, 2009, 07:41:18 PM »

David

Any truth in the rumour that the Merion Bunkers where delibrately made to look older.  If a Scotsman was involved then that would not be the case, its only American architects that I believe feel it necessary to offers that additional option - not Willie. Another option I hear is special alloy wheels for carts fitted with a metal fold down roof.  ;)

I am also reliably informed that the must have Christmas gift for 2009 is a combined GPS-distance aid available as a ‘head-up’ display for carts. It comes completed with an inbuilt ball tracker as standard. Wonder if that will speed up play.  ::)

Melvyn


Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #62 on: August 01, 2009, 08:51:27 PM »
As usual, Tom delivers interesting research and insight. I have always maintained that Myopia is one of the most underrated courses in America.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #63 on: August 02, 2009, 12:07:02 AM »
Melvyn,  No truth to that at the old Merion which is NLE, I don't think.  But according to one of the videos on Castle Stewart, A Merion maintenance practice (on the East course and I presume the West course) provided some of the inspiration for the technique used on the rough bunker edges there.  But I don't think Merion East was trying to make their bunkers look old, but rather trying to make them look natural. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #64 on: August 02, 2009, 12:15:15 AM »
Here is an article from the New York Times, February 24, 1896. 

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike_Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #65 on: August 02, 2009, 12:31:30 AM »
Here is an article from the New York Times, February 24, 1896.  



David,

Holy cow, so it was THAT Willie Campbell who built that thing at Merion!   :o

Tom MacWood said it was another Willie when I asked about that sometime back.   I guess he was mistaken at that time.

Wow...I was really sort of hoping that it wasn't.

I was sort of hoping that perhaps the Willie Campbell who everyone is raving about on this thread was actually a decent early architect, perhaps even someone who taught something to Leeds so that we can follow this lineage with some sense.

I don't know...perhaps the original nine-hole Merion course was another in a horrid line because Willie Dunn made some subsequent suggestions but OMG....you have to be kidding!   :P

First Hole - 327 yards - cross bunker 40 yards short of green with large mound behind.

Second Hole - 356 yards - cross bunker 40 yards short of green.

Third Hole - 239 yards - cross bunker 50 yards in front of tee and 30 yards short of green.

Fourth Hole - 473 yards - cross bunker 270 yards from tee

Fifth Hole - 256 yards - cross bunker 40 yards short of green.

Sixth Hole - 320 yards - cross bunker 20 yards short of green.

Seventh Hole - 143 yards - cross bunker in front of green and cross bunker behind.

Eigth Hole - 278 yards - bunkerless.

Ninth Hole - 410 yards - cross bunkers with giant mounds 40 yards short of green.


Wow...what a disappointment.   I was hoping we actually discovered someone who might have helped teach Leeds and provide a connection from abroad.

Guess not...

No wonder Rodman Griscom ran like hell when Connell suggested English pro golfer HH Barker and decided the Merion Committee should design the course themselves with valuable suggestions and advice from CB Macdonald and HJ Whigham.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2009, 12:36:21 AM by MCirba »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #66 on: August 02, 2009, 12:42:09 AM »
I guess I should have known when I saw Melvyn's post about the hazards at Willie Campbell's Monmouthshire being "fences and ditches"!   ::)

Or, even the original Myopia article here which talks about golfers having to hit over trees and bushes.

Sheesh...no wonder the very soul of golf shrieked.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2009, 12:44:20 AM by MCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #67 on: August 02, 2009, 12:44:40 AM »
Last time you were giving yardages of the original Merion, didn't you think the 18th was something like 78 yards?  Yet now you are somehow an expert on the course, and ready to dismiss it completely with your usual near-hysterical hyperbole.  Why am I not surprised?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2009, 12:49:45 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #68 on: August 02, 2009, 07:20:07 AM »
I've unearthed a real good article concerning Willie Campbell and his wife.  This is from the July 2, 1902 edition of the Saint Paul Globe.

Now we know why Willie ended up at Myopia and Brookline, and that he laid out both courses.





« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 01:14:24 PM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #69 on: August 02, 2009, 10:17:44 AM »
Joe
That is a very interesting article. I've not been able to figure how Thomas met Campbell. WB Thomas was a very wealthy man who made his fortune in sugar. He was president of the American Sugar Refining Co. I know he was involved in yachting and was a member of syndicate that sponsored an Americas Cup boat, so that may be the reason why he was in the UK. He became president of the USGA in 1899.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2009, 11:50:38 AM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #70 on: August 02, 2009, 10:19:58 AM »
Here is profile on Campbell I cut and pasted from my essay:

Willie Campbell – Born in 1862, Willie Campbell like his father before him was a caddie at the nine-hole links at Musselburgh. He learned the game from the great Bob Ferguson, who in the early eighties was the premier player in the world, having won the Open Championship in 1880, 1881, and 1882. In those days nearly all the caddies were professional players, and Willie was no different, competing for money at an early age. Among his contemporaries at Musselburgh were David Brown, Peter Paxton, and Willie Park-Jr.

Campbell was a tall strapping man with a demeanor admirably adapted to the difficulties of a match—fearless and courageous. Willie was regarded as one of the finest match players of his time. Garden Smith of Golf Illustrated described him as a golfing genius. During the 1880s Campbell never backed down from a match—anywhere, anytime, with anyone. In 1882 an admirer offered to back him, and the following year Campbell issued a challenge to the world. From 1883 to 1890 he played every player who would meet him for money. Some reports claim he never lost a match during those years, although I have been unable to substantiate that claim. What is certain Campbell delivered some incredible beatings to the world’s best players.

Despite all his success his most famous golfing moment was a failure. In the 1887 Open Championship at Prestwick, where Campbell was an assistant professional, Willie was coming home the sure winner when he healed his drive at the 16th and found a deep bunker (later dubbed Campbell’s grave). The gallery tried to convince him to play backward, unfortunately he ignored their advice and took eight instead of four. Willie Park-Jr won the title by a stroke. Horace Hutchinson told the sad story of coming into Charlie Hunter’s shop after Willie had thrown away the Championship. On either side of the shop were upturned buckets – on one sat Willie Campbell and on the other his caddie, both weeping bitterly.

After the disappointment Campbell challenged the champion to a match over 72 holes. He defeated Park 18 up with 17 to play. The year before he had finished second in the Open to Davie Brown at Musselburgh. Again he issued a challenge; ultimately defeating Brown 13 and 12. He had similar one-sided victories over Bob Martin and Willie Fernie. His match against Archie Simpson may have been the most publicized, it was held over Carnoustie, St.Andrews, Prestick and Musselburgh in front huge crowds. The battle ended at Musselburgh with Willie up 16.

Campbell was engaged as professional at Prestwick (1887-88), Ranfurly Castle (1889-91) and North Berwick (1892-94). His first architectural involvement appears to be at Ranfurly Castle in 1889, where he designed their nine-hole course. In 1891 he laid out the wild links at Machirie on Islay, considered a cult classic today. That same year he designed Cowal, Rothesay and Kilmacolm in western Scotland, and in 1893 the first nine at Seascale.

Campbell suffered from a rheumatic condition and immigrated to America in 1894 - setting up shop in Boston. 1894 was a critical year for golf in Boston, and the United States. There were four major projects that year – the expansion of Brookline, the laying out of the first nines at Essex County, Quincy (Wollaston) and Myopia Hunt. Campbell was responsible for all four. Considering the importance of those courses, particularly Brookline and Myopia, its surprising he hasn’t received more recognition.

Over the next few years Willie continued to lay out courses throughout the region including Oakley, Wannamoisett (RI), Winchester, Worcester, New Bedford, Beaver Meadow (NH) and Franklin Park. Although not as prolific as some he was without doubt one of the most important early golf architects, especially in America. Unfortunately his place in American golf architecture history has been largely ignored. Willie Campbell’s life was cut short when he succumbed to cancer in 1900. He was only 38 years old.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #71 on: August 02, 2009, 10:21:36 AM »
Another couple of mentions of WC at MCC, the first from the Feb 24, 1896 edition of The Sun, the latter from March 16 of the same year and paper.

« Last Edit: August 02, 2009, 10:31:11 AM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike_Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #72 on: August 02, 2009, 10:46:45 AM »
Joe.

Interesting articles.

Can someone tell us how his architecture differed from the efforts of other early pros?  I see no evidence of that on the early Merion course frankly.

David,

I never said any hole at the original Merion course was 78 yards. 

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #73 on: August 02, 2009, 11:16:43 AM »
Here are the photos that went with that Mrs. Willie Campbell article above:
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike_Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #74 on: August 02, 2009, 11:26:33 AM »
Tom,

Why do you think these early pros designed such rigid, formulaic courses?

Is that how the first inland courses were in Great Britain, as well?

It has always been a mystery to me why guys who saw and played the great courses abroad designed such dreck here even considering they weren't given much time.  Did they actually think designing one cross bunker after another was good or interesting golf?.

Any thoughts?

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