[Mike Cirba]

Tom.

Whatever Willie Campbell's design cache was in Boston and elsewhere, it unfortunately seems very short lived.

The mos recent history book at TCC Brookline has him expanding the original 1892 members designed course from 6 holes to 9 and expanding that original course a bit, but then credits Alex "Nipper" Campbell, not Willie, as well as the green committee with Herb Windeler for the expansion to eighteen holes in the 1898 timeframe.

I haven't independently researched any of this myself, but given that TCC has been viewed in modern times as perhaps WC's most lasting achievement, I did find this a bit surprising when I read it. 

Apparently, whatever immediate architectural work WC actually did at Myopia, TCC. Essex, and even Franklin Park, it's very difficult to ascertain exactly what he did in any of those venues, and all of that work seems to have been very shortly replaced by the efforts of others in the rapidly expanding game.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom.

Whatever Willie Campbell's design cache was in Boston and elsewhere, it unfortunately seems very short lived.

The mos recent history book at TCC Brookline has him expanding the original 1892 members designed course from 6 holes to 9 and expanding that original course a bit, but then credits Alex "Nipper" Campbell, not Willie, as well as the green committee with Herb Windeler for the expansion to eighteen holes in the 1898 timeframe.

I haven't independently researched any of this myself, but given that TCC has been viewed in modern times as perhaps WC's most lasting achievement, I did find this a bit surprising when I read it.  

Apparently, whatever immediate architectural work WC actually did at Myopia, TCC. Essex, and even Franklin Park, it's very difficult to ascertain exactly what he did in any of those venues, and all of that work seems to have been very shortly replaced by the efforts of others in the rapidly expanding game.

Mike
The original 6-hole course was laid out in the Spring of 1893, not 1892. Willie Campbell laid out a new 9-hole course in 1894, and lengthened it in 1895. In January or February of 1896 (it was reported in the March issue of The Golfer) the golf committee - Quincy A. Shaw, Laurence Curtis and Geo. E. Cabot - sent out a circular to the membership that the present course was inadequate. They proposed new land be secured and the course expanded to 18 holes at a cost of $20 per member. I don't know if it went to vote, and if it did the result, but I do know the course was not expanded until 1899, and beginning in 1896 QA Shaw and Herbert Leeds, Brookline's two best golfers, were playing at Myopia. In March of 1896 it was announced Campbell would not be rehired at Brookline, and by the summer of '96 he was the pro at Myopia.

I don't agree with your conclusion that Campbell's 'design cache' was damaged because he was not involved in the expansion in 1899. I think it is more likely his relationship with TCC was damaged as result of the circumstances of their parting. Also Campbell's health was not all that great in 1898, 1899, and 1900, the year he died.

The earlier club histories of TCC & Essex County have schematics of their evolving courses, but I'm not sure how accurate they are.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

As we discussed the other day, The Country Club at Brookline has an interesting design evolution, with three members designing six holes in 1893, Willie Campbell expanding and revising that course to 9, and then the Green Committee with Herb Windeler and Alex "Nipper" Campbell expaning to the full 18 holes around 1899.

With that in mind, do you think the following widely distributed, syndicated 1902 article is probably responsible for the misattribution of TCC to Willie Campbell you often still see in modern times?

Similarly, by the time of this article, the course at Myopia had been almost wholly revised and expanded to 18 holes by HC Leeds years before this article.   In fact, all that remained of the original course was some hole corridors and perhaps 2 or 3 greensites, and almost everyone back then attributed the course by that point to Leeds.

Do you think this artilce after Willie's death profiling his widow (and presumably her rememberances) might be the culprit around the misattribution of TCC to Campbell?   It obviously only tells a very partial story regarding the architectural history and evoluion of that course, even by 1902, and does the same with Myopia's course history to that point, as well.

No wonder these things get so confused and misleading...

[Mike Cirba]

Bump

[DMoriarty]

Mike, Why do you have to put such a slant on everything? There is nothing significantly misleading or inaccurate about that article as far as can tell.  It is about Mr. and Mrs. Willie Campbell and their contribution to early golf in Boston and thus in America.   It doesn't purport to give a complete description of the early architectural evolution at Myopia or the Country Club, and it is downright ridiculous that you would act as if it is flawed or misleading because it doesn't outline every single change which took place at those courses.

Reportedly, Campbell was responsible for Brookline's first 9 hole course, having revised the original six and added three more, he made more changes and lengthened the nine the next year as well.  In 1899, weren't nine holes added, while his original nine remained?  He also reportedly laid out Myopia's first nine hole course and a number of other courses.  Why you continue to try to minimize this is really beyond me.   

As for why Campbell has long received credit for his contributions at Brookline, it is probably because they realized the significance of his contributions. This was at the dawn of golf in this Country, and these first contributors set the stage for all who followed.  The real mystery is why a club like Myopia quit giving him his due.   

Perhaps Leeds' famous dislike of professionals helps explain it.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
First of all you have no idea specifically how Brookline or Myopia (or Essex) evolved, so stop parroting TEP's bizarre all that remained of the original Myopia was some hole corridors and perhaps 2 or 3 green sites. That is what he would like you and everyone else to believe. Second, I don't agree that Campbell has been misattributed at TCC; the club to this day still recognizes his contribution. And comparatively TCC written history is light years ahead of Myopia's, which seems to have a blind spot regarding their early history.

[Joe Bausch]

(gosh, this is getting hard adding new stuff to get this thread over 100 pages...      )

Here is a March 22, 1896 NY Sun article describing the new Palmetto Golf Club.  Leeds is given credit for the design.  Within the article indicates Leeds "... previously assisted in the planning at Myopia...".

Go at it David, Mike, and Tom's!  :-)

[Mike Cirba]

Joe,

Muy Interesante.   Gracias.  

And yes, March 1896 was before Campbell's 4-month stint as pro at Myopia.   Hmmm...the plot thickens.

And why would Leeds have assisted in "planning" the course at Myopia when we are told by David and Tom that there was NO PLANNING PHASE...simply Willie Campbell coming by and presto-chango, magically laying the holes on the ground some day in late May 1894 after which the course opened in a day or ten?  

WHat's up with that, Willis?  


David and Tom,

I'm really shocked at you guys.

Here we are on page gazillion of a thread about Myopia where you two guys have spent countless hours railing against the unfairness and indignity of the omission of Willie Campbell's possible/probable help over a day or two with the orgiinal course at Myopia from their official record, as well as argued about the validity and veracity of relying solely on news articles as attribution sources, yet both of you seem to sing a different tune here about a far more egregious case of misattribution, simply because the incomplete, erroeneous, and misldeading article about Mrs. Campbell isn't supporting your interests.

Sheesh...at least in modern times Willie Campbell is given attribution credit for the original course at Brookline, where he added three holes to the original member designed course and expanded the others.   Arguably, that is far greater recognition for a course of more historical and competitive cache than Myopia, and yet how much did he really do to deserve that?

And what of poor Herb Winderler?

Windeler, working with his green committee and pro Alex "Nipper' Campbell, worked for over fifteen years on the golf course, expanding it to 18 holes and refining it into the competitive test of golf it was for the 1910 US Amateur and the 1913 US Open.   He arguably did as much for Brookline as Wilson did for Merion, Fownes did for Oakmont, Leeds did for Myopia, and so on.

Yet who knows Windeler and what he did??   You guys talk about "missing" attributions, yet here is certainly the biggest case of misattribution of any top golf course in America, EVER!!

This guy worked diligently on the course, doing Raynoresque clearing of woodlands in impossible settings to create holes such as today's 9th of the composite course, or today's beautiful 3rd.  And yet, you guys want to give Willie Campbell's probably one-day of routing time for a temporary course greater credit than Windeler's on the ground work over fifteen years?!?!

Tom...you tell us that the TCC history book you have from the 30s has a map showing the early evolution of the golf course?   How much of the original six holes remain?   How much of the Campbell-expanded nine holes??   How much of what Campbell did still exists today??

In the case of Myopia, we KNOW everyone else by 1902 was crediting Leeds with the course that was on the ground.   We also KNOW from descriptions to the changes in the holes over time that very little of the original 2025 yard course remained unaltered by then, with different green sites and different hole corridors.   Yes, there are some unknowns, but very little of substance.   By 1902, it was a Leeds course.

By 1902, TCC was a Curtis/Bacon/Hunnewell, then Willie, then Windeler and Alex Campbell course, favoring the latter by a long shot, and would continue to evolve by them in the next decade.

So, for that article to claim in 1902 that Campbell was responsible for Myopia and Brookline, it is really the worst type of reporting, and leads to the type of misinformation that historians and researchers who are interested in this stuff need to wade through with hip boots today with very clear eyes looking for what other sources of information are available.

I'm really surprised that you'd be upset that Willie Campbell's one-day of possible work at Myopia was overlooked, yet give a complete pass to the erroneous crediting for the course at Brookline to Willie that probably led to the omission of Herb Windeler's work at Brookline, which lasted over more than a decade.

Why is that?   Is it because he was another of those damned amateur architects who put in the time, effort, and personal sacrifice to create the first great golf courses in America, in contrast to the early "expert" pros who by your own claims, spent a day getting a course up and running?  

I really don't understand how serious researchers could pooh-pooh such an oversight, or leave blameless such a misleading and erroneous article that was probably at least partially responsible for sweeeping poor Winderler under the rug and leaving the erroneous modern impression that Willie Campbell was responsible for designing the first course at Brookline.

[Mike Cirba]

Since the 1902 article seems to be based on the rememberances of Mrs. Campbell, I was curious to see if she came over with hiim originally at the beginning of April 1894, shortly after which Campbell did work at TCC and Essex, and possibly Myopia.

Apparently, Willie travelled alone.   Not sure when she came over.




Following is more about Herb Windeler, about Alex "Nipper" Campbell, longtime pro at TCC, about Campbell's views on Myopia, and about how by 1910 the efforts of the original foreign pros original architectural work here was being viewed.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

That raises some interesting questions - Do you trust a wife’s remembrance from 1902 over events of 1894 when she wasn't even present over Bush’s remembrance in 1908 when he was a member of the club and deeply involved as a Steward, then club officer?  Willie is dead, she may want to build him up, etc.  As DM says, the article is not about the detailed design of Myopia, so does that make its author more or less likely to accept what Mrs. Campbell said about events she never saw without double checking his facts?

TMac,

I don't think its a "bizarre" TPaul theory about what was left of Willie's original nine - Weeks tells us much about how many of Willie’s holes were moved around, probably from the Leeds scrapbook, but of course, those are all poorly sourced writings, right?  I went over the long nine map myself and the idea that most holes had been altered seemed right to me.  Have you done the same?

I can believe that Willie Campbell did something on the first nine at Myopia, but it didn’t last a year before they decided that Leeds should redo it, and that they would be better off doing it themselves.  We don’t know why, but it just seems like of the 1000 courses in play by 1900, it would happen that a few clubs thought that was the way to go, and given Leeds opinions about pro golfers, it’s not surprising that Myopia might be one of them.

The last article Mike posts notes that a TCC club member made the Scotland trip to study golf holes, and we know Leeds studied it, both of which imply that the club members were interested and certainly somehow involved in the design of their courses and that at least there is some reason for club records/Leeds scrapbook, etc. to have considered that the members did some design work, too.

It’s hardly worth arguing.

By the way, I was reading Cornish’s “18 stakes on a Sunday afternoon” and he has a partial list 32 Scot pros who came over to lay out golf courses, although many stayed at the one club they laid out and never did any more design.  At the time, I am sure most of those also got some local press, and even if Willie was one of the more famous for blowing the British Open, but in reading Cornish's account, I didn't get the feeling that he would elevate WC over the rest of them as an early architect, just one of the boys, as it were.  

[Tom MacWood]

From what I've been able to gather golf was played informally at Aiken beginning 1892 on three sand greens. Palmetto GC was organized in 1895, but I don't believe the course was ready until early 1896. That nine hole course was laid out by Leeds. It was expanded to eighteen in 1898. I'm not sure who was added the second nine. Prior to the first annual Winter tournament at Palmetto, in 1896, an article in a NY paper credited Leeds for designing the course, and it also claimed he designed Myopia.

[Tom MacWood]

"Prior to the first annual Winter tournament at Palmetto, in 1896, an article in a NY paper credited Leeds for designing the course, and it also claimed he designed Myopia."


Tom MacWood:

How could that be? The NY paper must have been wrong, don't you think? I suppose the NY paper did not do the proper "independent" research to determine that in fact Willie Campbell designed Myopia and that the original 1894 course was no different than Myopia's 1896 course. Furthermore if the NY paper was reporting on a winter tournament at Palmetto in 1896 how could they even know that Herbert Leeds was a member of Myopia in the winter of 1896 and to have designed the course?

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
You're not using your thinking cap. There is evidence the original nine was redesigned prior to 1896 (an 1895 report said the course was new that season; Weeks claimed they were looking toward the ridge as early as 1894; the course yardage did not change between 1896 and 1898), creating your so called Long Nine. If this report is correct Leeds involvement with the course came prior to him becoming a member. I know this conflicts with Weeks, err, the 'board minutes,' but those records don't appear to be as complete or as reliable as one would hope.

[Tom MacWood]

If the course was changed in 1895 then once again TEP and his supposed board minutes have been proven wrong. And I do think there is distinct possibility the course was changed in 1895, and quite possibly Leeds was involved, and I wouldn't be surprised if Campbell was also involved since Leeds wasn't a member at the time. I believe the first pro at Palmetto was one of Campbell's assistants, which is also interesting to note.

[DMoriarty]

Mike Cirba,

That article on the Campbells had nothing to do with Windeler or any of the changes at the Country Club.   It was about Campbell, his wife, and their role in bringing golf to Boston. It confirms earlier reports that Campbell was responsible for the initial nines at both TCC and Myopia. So far as I know, the Country Club has long credited Windeler for his involvement in the course, so I have no idea what you are squawking about.  

You just go right ahead and keep trying to discredit Campbell's wife though, if that is what you are into.
________________________________________________

Jeff Brauer,  

Bush's remembrances from 1908?   You just made that up.   And you also just made up the part about his "remembrances" contradicting the reports that Campbell laid out the original course.  Again.

Probably from the mystical Leeds Scrapbook?  You have no idea what was in this Scrapbook/"Diary," but if documented what was done to the original nine, the Weeks wouldn't have had to guess at it.   And you have no idea what happened to the original nine.  TEPaul's theory makes no sense.

That "TCC member" who was overseas? Herbert Windeler.  At this point I'm not surprised that name is not familiar to you, but you should brace yourself for a scolding from Mike.    Given that he was British, I should think he had visited courses abroad.  But he was not involved in the creation of the original 9 holes at TCC or at Myopia.  Nor was Alex Campbell.  Only you guys would try to twist an article about what was happening at TCC in 1910 to explain what happened at Myopia sixteen (16) years earlier.

"By the way, I was reading Cornish’s “18 stakes on a Sunday afternoon” and he has a partial list 32 Scot pros who came over to lay out golf courses, although many stayed at the one club they laid out and never did any more design.  At the time, I am sure most of those also got some local press, and even if Willie was one of the more famous for blowing the British Open, but in reading Cornish's account, I didn't get the feeling that he would elevate WC over the rest of them as an early architect, just one of the boys, as it were."

Not even going to address this, but thought I'd quote it because it made me smile.  I am not sure why you insist on highlighting how little you know about this period.

[Mike Cirba]

David,

The article says absolutely nothing about "original nines".   It says that Willie Campbell laid out Brookline and Hamilton (Myopia), which creates a huge misperception and incomplete picture to the reader based on the current state and actual evolution of those courses up to that tiime.
 
That article was simply erroneous and to call Brookline and Myopia as they stood in 1902 "Willie Campbell" courses is almost as egregious a sentimental, erroneous oversimplifcation as HJ Whigham calling the 1938 Merion course a "Macdonald/Raynor"* course.   Wouldn't you agree?

It is yet another example of faulty, incomplete, misleading reporting that shows the unreliability of only using news articles as sole sources to determine course attributions.


*Incidentally, I believe what Whigham meant was that they started out with the idea of copying Macdonald's model of using classic principles and holes from abroad, which is what CBM wanted to foster in this country.   He merely overstated his case, by a few hundred miles.

[Jeff_Brauer]

If Tmac and David think Weeks description of the original first being a 300 yard version of the current second, with the original tee visible (as of the writing in 1970's) the 2nd beeing a shorter version of the 8th, and the 5th being the current 12th, modified, along with 4-6 being the alps and pond holes is bogus, then I invite them to show us what they think the original routing was that makes this so ridiculous.  I have gone over it with TePaul, and it makes sense, and I recall David posting a proposed routing and TMac contradicting it.

So yes, the exact original nine is somewhat in doubt over 110 years later, but some parts were known, and some parts were known to be changed substantially, leaving only a few greens, as TePaul suggests.  If you have different contemporaneous information, bring it forward, but broadly discrediting TePaul and his versions without suggesting one of your own isn't history.

You can dispute Weeks all you want, but we know he had the run books and the scrapbook at his disposal and used them, and using those records, its obvious that those in the club believed that their members laid out the course.   Saying the record doesn't contradict the idea Campbell didn't lay out the golf course based on every other historian merely being wrong, poorly sourced, not writing the most obvious meaning of what they write, etc. but we have come to expect that out of you two. Simply put, the record to most of us is not clear. 

The question still stands as to whether Bush, as an insider writing his remembrances any time after 1898, and probably after being President of the Club (as we all seemed to agree at one point) vs. Ms. Campbell telling a reporter with no knowledge of Myopia about events that happened before she was in the US is more valid.  By any standards, Mrs Campbell is giving a second hand account.

BTW, you now imply that Geoff Cornish as another blathering idiot, and he has been studying history far longer than either of you. 

Once again, you guys took shots at the original routing once before.  Please post them again, with some kind of source material as to why you think those are right and we would love to take a look at them.  Not sure it would necessarily solve anything, but it would be historical analysis.  BTW, I recall TMac is having the same problem as I am posting photos, et al on this site, so I guess I am asking David to do it, or at least direct us back to the post number where he posted his attempt at recreating the routing.

[DMoriarty]

Mike Cirba,    

Always back to Merion.   Your bitterness and partisanship shapes everything you write.  

The article didn't say Myopia and TCC were "Campbell courses."   It said Campbell laid them out, and the context was a discussion of what happened early on at those courses.  Again and again, you give these articles bizarre and unsupportable interpretations, and then draw bizarre and unsupportable conclusions based on those tenuous readings.  You ignore obvious meaning and intention, and introduce tenuous and ridiculous meaning and intention to serve your purposes.  That isn't historical analysis, it is overzealous advocacy.

Again, if you have to distort and misread articles to make your points, then your point is not worth making.
____________________________________________________

Jeff Brauer,

You just bounce off your last series of misrepresented facts into the next series, without missing a beat or correcting the record, generously sprinkling in misrepresentations of what TomM and I have posted in the process.  

Enough already.  I've presented my thoughts on the original routing.  That you can't even find that yourself says something about your approach here.   You obviously have no real interest in what happened, otherwise you could manage to keep track of even the simplest of facts regarding the matter.   I mean for goodness sakes, you've got the book in front of you, and you can't even bother to represent that accurately.  

[Mike Cirba]

David,

For someone who insists on "facts", you sure are selective.

Claiming in 1902 that WC laid out Brookline and Myopia as those courses stood by that time is like claiming in 2010 that Tom Fazio laid out Stonewall;  technically partially true, but historically incomplete and wholly misleading. 

The article clearly is meant to fluff up Campbell's reputation post-mortem by giving him sole and undeserved credit for two very prominent courses that had moved on by that time well past anything Campbell may have did.

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

Yes I could find your routing and TMacs immediate dismissal of it as being a hole off.  I can't post my own version, sadly.

To correct the record, I read Weeks, typed exactly what he said, so I don't have it wrong.  I also read Cornish and typed most of what he said, so I don't have that wrong.

So, nice try in trying to discredit me, Cornish, TePaul, Weeks, etc. without really saying anything.

I won't bother further in this thread.  Its useless and has always been about you and TMac telling us just which parts of the record can be trusted.  I understand where your three articles have some weight and have said so.  It is really the strength of the arugment.  The further you go into parsing, discrediting, and interpreting, the weaker your arguments get.

[Mike Cirba]

Jeff,

I'm not sure why David won't re-post his idea of the original routing...I'll see if I can locate it later buried in this thread.

I think one thing to consider is May's statement that the original course was 2050 yards. I have my own idea of what that may have looked like after viewing a vintage photo of Myopia's 4th hole a few days back.

Try to ignore the personal insults...you're on the right track and this is hardly an open-and+shut case.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

Thanks. Never have two folks been more insulted than you and I for taking middle ground and saying things are inconclusive, eh?  Now, I will admit that David in particular has been insulted quite a bit by TePaul for taking his stance, but that is a different matter.

If I have time, I will look it up, but what's the point.  Neither he or TMac has really got it figured out either, they just dismiss anything TePaul has to say out of hand, as if on auto pilot.

I will amend my previous post to say we all tend to find things that agree with our predisposed opinions, too. Its not just David and TMac.  We all just seem to look at things different ways and truly the record is not completely filled in as they like to tell us it is.   

[DMoriarty]

David,

For someone who insists on "facts", you sure are selective.

Claiming in 1902 that WC laid out Brookline and Myopia as those courses stood by that time is like claiming in 2010 that Tom Fazio laid out Stonewall;  technically partially true, but historically incomplete and wholly misleading.

The article says nothing about "as the courses stood by that time."  It was about the initial golf at those clubs.   You again twist the information to fit it into your agenda.

The article clearly is meant to fluff up Campbell's reputation post-mortem by giving him sole and undeserved credit for two very prominent courses that had moved on by that time well past anything Campbell may have did.

Yes, Mike, the there was a giant conspiracy to prop up Campbell going all the way back to 1902.   They were intentionally slighting people who made changes to the course later.  The article shouldn't have been about the Campbell's at all, but about G. Herbert Windeler!  Even the choice of Campbell as a topic shows that the author was biased against the amateur sportsman.  

Either you are incredibly disingenuous, or your comprehension skills are incomprehensible.

[Tom MacWood]

By the way, I was reading Cornish’s “18 stakes on a Sunday afternoon” and he has a partial list 32 Scot pros who came over to lay out golf courses, although many stayed at the one club they laid out and never did any more design.  At the time, I am sure most of those also got some local press, and even if Willie was one of the more famous for blowing the British Open, but in reading Cornish's account, I didn't get the feeling that he would elevate WC over the rest of them as an early architect, just one of the boys, as it were.  

Could explain what this has to do with Campbell laying out Brookline, Myopia and about twenty other golf courses around Boston?

Didn't Weeks write that the actual layout of the nine hole course is a matter of speculation?

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
I think you've finally lost it. If I were a conspirator and looking to make maximum impact the St. Paul (Mn) Globe would be my first choice too.

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