[Anthony Gray]

To touch a single hair on the head of that golf course is a profanity upon the game and anyone who lends a hand in this atrocity should be executed by firing squad.

  It is an awesome and very special place.


  Anthony

[Chris DeNigris]

15 is part of the soul of CB and certainly a big part of what defines her. What's not to like? So the shot is blind..it's not like most of us hit what we CAN see from 200 yards 90% of the time anyway.

For me it was quite a thrill to stand on that tee, overhanging the dunes and the cool 14th green, and wondering if my slightly pulled shot would somehow find safety around the bend. It didn't, but that didn't diminish the coolness of the moment. I like 16 a lot too, and I think that it's relationship with 15 helps. Without it's sibling I'm afraid it will suffer. Sort of like splitting conjoined twins.

The sheer majesty of that course puts it in rare company. Kyle's pics do it great justice.

[paul westland]

Kyle, Did you have time to knock it around the St Olaf Nine? I rather enjoyed it!
Amazing camera shots. Was Tom Simpson on fire when he worked Cruden! 
An inspiring place. 

[Patrick Kiser]

I had a pretty rough day today but Gib's line about Bill and now this from El Capitan and Melvyn has brightened up the day considerably.


Kyle / Melvyn,

What a day for you guys to score on such great conditions and at CB no less.  Unbelievable!  Thanks for sharing.


Kyle,

If the day job and KP organizing falls through ... you can always become a course photographer.  Good stuff.


I agree with SPDB, Gib, and co. to not change a thing.  The place seems pretty damn cool to me.

The 14th is not that quirky when you think about Prestwick's 17th (e.g. the infamous Alps hole).  Blind approach and in this case at CB protected by the deep depressions short and long to the hole along with that right bunker.  If anything, the hole builds anticipation after the sweet 13th.

Maybe the back to back blindness of the 14th and 15th is why there's such initial criticism?  I mean the 15th at over 200 yards is indeed a handful.  But wow what a vista when you come into that 15th green.  Something else for sure.

I better head over there before it's too late.

[Kyle Henderson]

Kyle, Did you have time to knock it around the St Olaf Nine? I rather enjoyed it!
Amazing camera shots. Was Tom Simpson on fire when he worked Cruden! 
An inspiring place. 

I did not play the St Olaf, though it looked like a fun little course. I left Aberdeen very early, played 36 holes on the big course at Cruden Bay and then sped down to St. Andrews to take in the Friday night festivities.

[Kyle Henderson]

I had a pretty rough day today but Gib's line about Bill and now this from El Capitan and Melvyn has brightened up the day considerably.


Kyle / Melvyn,

What a day for you guys to score on such great conditions and at CB no less.  Unbelievable!  Thanks for sharing.


Kyle,

If the day job and KP organizing falls through ... you can always become a course photographer.  Good stuff.


I agree with SPDB, Gib, and co. to not change a thing.  The place seems pretty damn cool to me.

The 14th is not that quirky when you think about Prestwick's 17th (e.g. the infamous Alps hole).  Blind approach and in this case at CB protected by the deep depressions short and long to the hole along with that right bunker.  If anything, the hole builds anticipation after the sweet 13th.

Maybe the back to back blindness of the 14th and 15th is why there's such initial criticism?  I mean the 15th at over 200 yards is indeed a handful.  But wow what a vista when you come into that 15th green.  Something else for sure.

I better head over there before it's too late.

I did not have the pleasure of Melvyn's company. Rather, I have the pleasure of receiving his treasures from his trove of historical documents and basking in his knowledge of golf's roots via the internet. The weather was entirely mine to enjoy that day.

Thank you for the compliments. I'm thinking about getting a real camera, as my little handicam struggles mightily when the ambient lighting isn't nearly perfect, but I doubt I'll go pro.

I too think that CB should probably not abandon the 15th entirely, especially as the new 13th doesn't impress me much. However, the current 15th tee is very much in the line of fire next to the 14th green.

[Kyle Henderson]

15 is part of the soul of CB and certainly a big part of what defines her. What's not to like? So the shot is blind..it's not like most of us hit what we CAN see from 200 yards 90% of the time anyway.

For me it was quite a thrill to stand on that tee, overhanging the dunes and the cool 14th green, and wondering if my slightly pulled shot would somehow find safety around the bend. It didn't, but that didn't diminish the coolness of the moment. I like 16 a lot too, and I think that it's relationship with 15 helps. Without it's sibling I'm afraid it will suffer. Sort of like splitting conjoined twins.

The sheer majesty of that course puts it in rare company. Kyle's pics do it great justice.

I think it would be fun if they turfed the left/front dune to allow players the option of trying to run their ball down that slope onto the green. Thoughts?

[Wyatt Halliday]

Kyle,

I think I've mentioned this to you before, but you seem to capture shots from angles not yet seen by these eyes. All of the pictorals have at least 2-3 angles of certain holes that create a different perspective from what is normally seen. By doing so, you have created another element of study for these wonderful courses. The previous statement is not limited to your recent work.

Thanks for that.

[Anthony Gray]

Kyle,

I think I've mentioned this to you before, but you seem to capture shots from angles not yet seen by these eyes. All of the pictorals have at least 2-3 angles of certain holes that create a different perspective from what is normally seen. By doing so, you have created another element of study for these wonderful courses. The previous statement is not limited to your recent work.

Thanks for that.

  Wyatt,

  I said the same thing about Kyle's Bandon photos. It has to take him off his game to hit a shot and then run to a different area and take a photo from a unique angle, then run back to his ball. He does sacrifice when taking us on these photo tours. It is greatly appreciated.

   Anthony

[Mark Pearce]

It's not the blindness that I object to.  It's the combination of the length, the fact you can't miss left, right or short without probably losing a ball, the fact that for weaker players (or good ones in a strong prevailing wind) there's no bail out all combined with the blindness.  I love Cruden Bay but it can only be improved by losing 15.  My view might change if the deep rough on the dunes on eitehr side was cut down, so balls wouldn't be lost.

[Kyle Henderson]

Kyle,

I think I've mentioned this to you before, but you seem to capture shots from angles not yet seen by these eyes. All of the pictorals have at least 2-3 angles of certain holes that create a different perspective from what is normally seen. By doing so, you have created another element of study for these wonderful courses. The previous statement is not limited to your recent work.

Thanks for that.
[/qu ;)ote]

  Wyatt,

  I said the same thing about Kyle's Bandon photos. It has to take him off his game to hit a shot and then run to a different area and take a photo from a unique angle, then run back to his ball. He does sacrifice when taking us on these photo tours. It is greatly appreciated.

   Anthony

Unless, of course, I happen to play military golf (left, right, left) anyways...

Truthfully, at Bandon I was playing with my parents. My mother hits about 4 shtos for each of mine, so the meandering photography trail helped to distract me from the long spaces of time. I never play well when I stand over my ball for 10 minutes waiting for my turn. I played as a single in the afternoon at Cruden Bay, following a packed course, hence the angles.

[Jim Carrigan]

Kyle, thanks for taking the time to put the photo tour together.  I'm new here.  Threads like this are why I joined.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Wow... wow... this might just be clearly better than St Enodoc. My travel itinerary for August 2010 has just changed.

Ulrich

[Scott Warren]

I really need to get up to Aberdeen ASAP!

[David Davis]

I wanted to provide a short follow-up to yet another excellent tour from Kyle.


I was there Sunday for the first time since about 2009 and had a great tour of new changes they have been through from their Captain. It was a blowy one so tough to hold the camera straight.


There have been major changes to the 9th and 10th holes which are absolutely wonderful. These holes were IMO the weakest links of the course without having an argument about the relative merits of the blind par 3, 15th which has it's obvious backers and people that just can't accept it.


The 9th has seen huge improvements, a major change of to the line of play from the medal tee which has been moved to the top of the hill. The view from the tee box alone is an appropriate reward for making the climb up from the 8th green.


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The new tee shot replaces the slightly blind and dull tee shot of the past. the angle also offers great improvement in the tee shot IMO.












In the past the top of this hill was totally covered in mature "old growth" gorse. Removing it really opened up this hole to new "higher" possibilities.


The new infinity green is also a welcome addition to the improvements made on this hole, not too mention it was moved back to the clifftop.














the 10th tee shot use to be to the left and back a bit from where this green lies. If you look back at Kyle's photos you can see that it was a straight and dull shot where the only really challenge was for the longest hitters to contemplate if they wanted to take on the burn and try to carry it. The advantage of doing so in the author's eye was negligent as it left a 1/2 to 3/4 club approach when laying back with a nice tee shot would allow for a full swing with a gap/P or 9 to a green that you would much rather have a full swing at.


The new 10th has managed to improve the hole in several ways. It has brought in a vertical angle come at the fairway from just right of the new 9th green. Not only does the angle work far better to make the tee shot interesting it makes you think a lot more about club choice and how much you think you can cut off to the right. Two strategically placed bunkers add to the dilemma off the tee.


Furthermore there were considerable safety issues that have been resolved with he movement of the patch down the hill which is much less steep from the current angle. The old path down the bluff must of been scary for older members in the winter months to say the least.


All in all a wonderful improvement.












This is one of my favorite burns I've ever run into on a golf course...just as a side note. Simply love it.








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[David Davis]

A couple other updates from Kyle's excellent tour.


There was some talk of a new 13th hole but this never did happen. The short par 3 additional hole apparently had some issues with the green which kept collapsing and has not really every been put in play according to what I was told. It was there but clearly not kept up in terms of maintenance.


That means the blind par 3, 15th love it or hate it has remained. I would find it such a shame if this wonderful quirky hole was ever changed.


There have been some significant changes to the par 3, 16th hole which unfortunately my photo of ended up too blurry to show. Basically what they have done was lower the mound on the right hand side which allows a much better view of the green and this is of great use in this case with the prevailing wind blowing left to right slightly against you.


The last very important point to mention is that the club has been experiencing severe troubles with the 8th hole green. I've always though of the 8th hole as a very iconic hole at Cruden Bay. Right now they are contemplating changing this and moving the green back out from behind the major dune on the right had side because it does not receive enough light and in the winter is in the shade much of the time.


I for one sure hope they find a solution that doesn't require them to move that green. I love that hole and find it super unique, to move the green back out of the shade there transform this into a par 3 would in my view create a strange break in the routing. Not too mention significantly lengthen the walk up to the 9th tee.


I'm talking by the way about this hole:

[Niall C]

David


Thanks for giving us the photos of the new work up at CB. Interesting design for Hawklaw the way the green is orientated and the guarding of the approach shot with the bunkers on the right. Clearly they are looking to try and draw play away from the edge. With regards the new 10th tee, while I appreciate the angle it creates, it also puts the 11th green firmly in the firing line does it not ?


That's why I thought that as good a hole as the 11th is, that replacing it with Frank Ponts par 3 might have been the thing to do from a safety point of view. In contrast I'm not sure what losing the current 15th would have done other than taking away an indifferent hole.


8th hole - one of Tom Simpson favourite holes at CB and an original green site even if the level of the green is significantly lower from what it was originally. Given it's been sited there for over a hundred years you wonder why it's suddenly become a problem ?


Niall

[David Davis]

David


Thanks for giving us the photos of the new work up at CB. Interesting design for Hawklaw the way the green is orientated and the guarding of the approach shot with the bunkers on the right. Clearly they are looking to try and draw play away from the edge. With regards the new 10th tee, while I appreciate the angle it creates, it also puts the 11th green firmly in the firing line does it not ?


Hey Niall, thanks for the comment. The 11th green would be far less in play now than before. I bet you'd have to carry it 400 yds to make it to the green and then you'd have to be way way offline (like 100 yds) with your shot. I know it's possible to be way offline, I manage it all the time but this would be absurd. Take a look at my photos right before the burn photo you will see it, that's why I took that photo. All the safety issue are more than fixed in my opinion.



That's why I thought that as good a hole as the 11th is, that replacing it with Frank Ponts par 3 might have been the thing to do from a safety point of view. In contrast I'm not sure what losing the current 15th would have done other than taking away an indifferent hole.

I personally really think this hole adds a lot to the course routing and is super unique, kind of like the blind par 3 at Prestwick. They have built in a proper safety measure with the bell so there are no close calls or at least shouldn't be. I know that most people don't like blind par 3's but I think it's an interesting historical attribute that only a few courses can lay claim to. I sure hope they don't ever decide to change that one either.

8th hole - one of Tom Simpson favourite holes at CB and an original green site even if the level of the green is significantly lower from what it was originally. Given it's been sited there for over a hundred years you wonder why it's suddenly become a problem ?


Can't answer this but I love this hole and have always remembered it since my very first trip to Cruden Bay. As I said one of the iconic holes there and I've already wrote two emails expressing that I sincerely hope they don't go through with changes on this hole.

[David McIntosh]

David,

Thanks for the photos showing the updates to the 9th and 10th holes, I haven't been back to CB since the work was done.

How much room is there at the back of the 9th green before the cliff edge? Is it as tight as it looks? In your last photo of the 9th it looks like maybe 5 or 6 yards beyond that pin before the green feeds into a little gathering area to the left with a sliver of rough/collar before the big drop. I like the look of the green and the way the entrance has been framed - no prizes (or excuses) for going long there!

The new driving angle on 10 looks to be more interesting than the previous straight tee shot too. The changes definitely seem to be an improvement although, like you, I'd hate to see them alter or move the 8th green.

[Michael Tamburrini]

The eleventh green is still in play off of the tenth tee (I speak as someone who routinely manages to snap hook his drive over there).  It can't be more than 250 yards from the tee, unless I've gained significant length recently but I'll measure it properly when I'm out tomorrow.  Given that it's out of bounds down the right usually I'll aim for the left rough and take my chances on a short iron from over there particularly if the wind is edging from the left in any way.


Also the eleventh green intrudes into the fourteenth lay up.  You want to stay left to give a better angle of the green which can mean (depending on the wind, of course) hitting over the eleventh green or at least close to it.


If the extra hole could get it's green sorted - it's used all winter in place of the 11th - it'd be much better from a safety point of view, even though eleven is a nice par three.  Also it'd stop all three par 3s on the back nine playing the same way.

[David Davis]

The eleventh green is still in play off of the tenth tee (I speak as someone who routinely manages to snap hook his drive over there).  It can't be more than 250 yards from the tee, unless I've gained significant length recently but I'll measure it properly when I'm out tomorrow.  Given that it's out of bounds down the right usually I'll aim for the left rough and take my chances on a short iron from over there particularly if the wind is edging from the left in any way.


Also the eleventh green intrudes into the fourteenth lay up.  You want to stay left to give a better angle of the green which can mean (depending on the wind, of course) hitting over the eleventh green or at least close to it.


If the extra hole could get it's green sorted - it's used all winter in place of the 11th - it'd be much better from a safety point of view, even though eleven is a nice par three.  Also it'd stop all three par 3s on the back nine playing the same way.

Michael,


Thanks for chiming in. I'll be curious to hear when you measure it. It seems to me so far out of the line of play and that was one of the things I was looking at compared to the other tee. So you have actually managed to hook your tee shot all the way over there to the green?


I'm kind of thinking if you are using those types of measurement there is no safe place on the course. The 10th fairway is also really close to the line of play for the par 3 11th as well so a hard snap hook 5 iron could definitely find someone if we are accounting for those kind of misses. I'm not trying to be cheeky either. I think the current 11th hole is an excellent hole but understand how you could sub it out for the extra hole Frank put in. That could make sense. Somehow I was thinking it was supposed to sub out for the 15th but this makes far more sense. Still I'd rather not see you guys change that. Just MO.

[David Davis]

David,

Thanks for the photos showing the updates to the 9th and 10th holes, I haven't been back to CB since the work was done.

How much room is there at the back of the 9th green before the cliff edge? Is it as tight as it looks? In your last photo of the 9th it looks like maybe 5 or 6 yards beyond that pin before the green feeds into a little gathering area to the left with a sliver of rough/collar before the big drop. I like the look of the green and the way the entrance has been framed - no prizes (or excuses) for going long there!


David, I think you are about right in terms of going long. You don't want to go long on that hole, that's for sure. However, it's perfectly suited for chasing one up there and I think in most cases it will be a long to mid iron. We had a ton of wind and I had to hit a 4 iron in. to give you an idea I lined up the approach about 10 meters right of the bunker on the right side of the green and the wind turned it all the way in and I don't really draw the ball.

The new driving angle on 10 looks to be more interesting than the previous straight tee shot too. The changes definitely seem to be an improvement although, like you, I'd hate to see them alter or move the 8th green.


Yes the new angle is way more interesting but as Michael just stated and corrected my assessment, maybe there is still an outside chance at a safety issue on this hole with pulled tee shots.

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks for posting with more details about the 'new' 9th and 10th.
The 11th green has always had issues from both the 10th and the 13th and it's never been unusual for tee shots on the 11th itself to find themselves on the 10th or 13th fairways. An area of slow play.
The burn on the 13th is a fine feature. Being extremely curly it takes up quite a big playing area. A nicer feature perhaps when it was less manicured than the recent photo shows. Once-upon-a-time it was occasionally playable out of.
The 15th may be unappreciated by some but CB has always been about quirk. Don't ever change the 15th! Instead folks should study it and learn how to play it ....there is a best way....hint - study it from behind the green and/or from the 8th fairway.
As to the 8th, there have been a few versions over the years, the flood of the 1980's caused one revision. I thought the latest change was supposed to put it back to how it was originally, ie decades ago. Has it not done so? Cracking short par-4 though which once-upon-a-time was played as a par-3 in the winter. Tough hole then.
Atb

[Michael Tamburrini]

From the yellow tee it's 215 yards from the markers to the eleventh green.  The whites are 35 yards further back so - given that it's usually into the wind - it's not such a thing from back there.


It's 40 yards from the eleventh green to the edge of the tenth fairway which sounds plenty but - given the wind - the line I take is still only about 20 yards from the eleventh (sometimes it'll aim closer, depending on the direction of the wind).  Also the two new bunkers on the 10th fairway have probably pushed my line a bit further left than it was. 


As an aside, here's a look at the extra hole at the end of the course:








And a look at the new 13th tee:








Of course, to get from the 12th green to the 13th tee you know walk the length of the extra hole at the end of the course (about 100 yards from the old 13th tee).  And then the 11th comes back into play on 13.  It's just 10 yards from the edge of the 11th green to the 13th fairway (for the first two thirds of the 13th you are heading straight at the 11th green).  Here's the view if you hit a good drive:





The preferred line on your second is to the left of the fairway, towards 11.  In fact, after a good drive, it would make sense to hit over the 11th green (it'd open up the green for your third and make it a lot easier than approaching from the right).


I feel like I'm hating the eleventh here - it is a very nice par 3.  It's lost some bunkers in recent years which is a pity (I liked the squad of bunkers to the left of it) but, after slogging into the wind since the 5th tee, it's a place I'm always happy to get to.  It just fits very tightly and the flow of the course would, in my opinion, be improved if they used the extra hole. Anyhoo, here's some more random thoughts (if anyone is still reading):

• The 15th is the easiest of the par 3s (by a good bit). 
• The 12th fairway is only about 25 yards wide with heavy rough and gorse on either side.  It's easier to play onto the 13th fairway (which is wide open) although it makes the hole a good bit longer.
• Extending the 5th green (the old run off area has been made into part of the green) doesn't really work.  Don't ever, ever, ever go long at the 5th.  And if the flag is at that back section, brace yourself for three putts.
• If you're more than a 10 handicap play off the yellow tees.  It doesn't make much of a difference but it'll stop you having to hit a driver on every hole and the 4th and 8th are much more fun from further forward. 

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks for the photos Michael. The new tee on the 13th looks interesting. Some astute observations on playing some of the other holes as well.
Atb

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