[George_Bahto]

Lido - 1919 beginning of the demise?

I recently found this article about Lido which dramatically illustrates problems at this great course that began just a year after it officially opened.

For some background for those who do not know the full story, the Lido course was conceived by an incredibly wealthy consortium of investors generally mostly out of New York City and Long Island.

Spearheading a sizeable group of investors headed by Roger Winthrop, president of Piping Rock, were Paul Kravath (Creek), Thomas Cuyler, Cornelius Vanderbilt, Robert Goelet, Charles Sabin, Henry Bull, W. Forbes Morgan, James Stillman, Harry Paine Whitney and Otto Kahn. Many of these men, and others who would later join them, were already members at the National, of Piping Rock, Nassau, Garden City and of Sleepy Hollow as well. This was the wealth of the northeast United States.

They convinced a skeptical Charles Blair Macdonald, who had backed off building more courses, to build a second course of his dreams on near submerged land, just over the dunes at Lido Beach.

He was reluctant because of the many problems with the site but after the investors, playing on his ego, knowing he had not used all his inspirational designs at NGLA, told him he could build whatever he wanted - a complete free hand.

He had Raynor to solve the technical problems, of course, and in due time he agreed.

Four years in the making, 2,000,000 cubic yards of fill later and at great cost, the course was completed and officially opened in 1918

Four years later, at great cost, the course was completed and officially opened in 1918.

But the timing of the project was incredibly bad.

The project began in 19194 - the year Germany began invading countries in Europe.

The Project was completed in 1918 - the year the Armistice was signed.

The investors along with the rest of America had turned their attention to the War effort.

Now the sad really part:


Lido Virtually Empty - Sept 1919       

AMERICAN PRODIGALITY was never so well instanced than in the case of the Lido Golf Links. Here was one of the three greatest golf links in America, with such a scanty membership, that on some days not a half dozen would venture over the course which cost a million dollars, and in a way, was a triumph of engineering skill. That was what Peter Lees, the former greenkeeper of Lido said the other day.

“It almost made me weep when I was called to Lido early in the year. Can you imagine my chagrin at having to crop of hay off those putting greens and fairways? It was the first time ever in my life that I had to cut a putting green with a two horse grass mower. With some help I was able to get the course in fair whap but now it has grown up again and is ready for another cutting.”

It seems unlikely there will be any great amount of play of play at Lido until a hotel is built nearby.




Note: The Lido Club (hotel) was built in 1918

[Matthew Mollica]

George -

I find myself (perhaps like several others on GCA) periodically going back to Daniel Wexler's Missing Links, and firstly reading about The Lido.

It sounds and looks (in route plan) exceptional.

It's loss may perhaps be the greatest LNE tragedy in golf. Very sad stuff.

MM

[Andy Hughes]

George, setting aside the bad timing why did the course have to be right there? Clearly there were issues with that location--with all that wealth, why didn't they pick a different location?

[Mike_Cirba]

George,

One thing I think we're learning about GCA is that it is often affected by real world events outside the greatness of any individual course's architecture, and often things are just a matter of timing, for better or worse.

I always get goosebumps when I drive past that property.

[BCrosby]

George -

Thanks for posting. I am surprised to hear there was a downward spiral so soon. Was there a later, upward spiral in the 1920's? There was a huge recession in the US economy about 1919 that went on for a couple of years.

Your reference to "Paul Kravath" - should that be Paul Cravath?

Bob

[George_Bahto]

BC: same guy - that was the way it was spelled in an early article.

the course spiraled upward dramatically soon after that and went full speed ahead for a lot of years until they were forced to sell off the "ocean holes" just to keep it alive

this article just surprised me because it was so soon after opening. I guess it's hard to understand the effect War I had on the country - just as it did during WW II

too bad they don't teach our history in proportion to what has taken place over the years

[George_Bahto]

Andy: "George, setting aside the bad timing why did the course have to be right there? Clearly there were issues with that location--with all that wealth, why didn't they pick a different location?"

What they were trying to accomplish was to have the finest golf destination in the world.

World class golf course, world class hotel with world class amenities, entertainment draw from New York City, a resort that encompassed other sports (swimming - horseback etc) and most of all they picked this site because the had something no one else had in the world (added to the list above) -  WORLD CLASS OCEAN FRONT

the project was aimed at not just a National membership but an international one

all was going well with the 400 room clubhouse/hotel completed in 1928 and then - here we go again with the bad timing of the Lido - the Great Depression hots and it was downhill from the early 1930's on.

The great hotel building is still there.

[Trey Stiles]

Did I read that right ? .... 2,000,000 CY in 1918 ? .... What did they move dirt with in 1918 ?

[George_Bahto]

Trey - 2 million is correct - they pumped out adjacent Reynolds Channel with pump that were used at the Panama Canal - this went on for over 2.5 years, pumping a slurry mix of 15% sand - 85% water all over this property (most of the property was under the water table).

The had these huge tubes on scaffolding that had to be moved to different locations. I think they even had a rail line on site but can’t come up with the verification.

Some places were filled to about 20 feet.

Incredible engineering project by Mr Raynor ...... Mac had the ideas and Raynor had to figure out how to get it done

The project took nearly 4 years.

[Craig Disher]

the course spiraled upward dramatically soon after that and went full speed ahead for a lot of years until they were forced to sell off the "ocean holes" just to keep it alive

George,
From what I've seen, the course was pretty much intact and in excellent condition until late 1940. By 1943, the Navy had moved in and were constructing barracks etc. on the course. Do you mean that the holes near the beach were sold? A large complex of cabanas and other structures were built along the beach but the par 3 was still there although situated behind the buildings.  I thought the original was abandoned because of flooding in the late 1920s.

[George_Bahto]

Craig, the entire area between Lido Blvd and the ocean was sold off for housing in order for the club to survive, at least for a short while. I really think this beginning sale was part of an overall plan to see what monies could be salvaged.

I’ve had extensive conversations with the son of the owner at the time. He was a teenager at the time and remembers well his father owning the property, selling it to the Navy and repurchasing when the Navy returned some of the original property.

Lost to the course when the “ocean holes were sold:

* 1st tee lost (it played from just short of Lido Blvd) and the 1st fairway was “inland” of the blvd
* 10th hole - same situation as above
* 7th hole: the reverse situation - the tee was inland but lost was the entire 7th hole fairway to green
* the entire Biarritz was along the sea originally (moved a bit, twice later) was lost
* the Leven hole #9 entirely lost
* #18 the Mackenzie hole - the tee inland - but like the 7th, fairway to green totally lost
* there was a large practice area in this plot as well


Here is a section of the Lido Chapter in The Evangelist of Golf


THE BEGINNING OF THE END:

     It was to be a slow and painful death for both the club and magnificent golf course. The enormous cost of maintaining the huge building dragged the club to near rock-bottom, forcing a sale of the property. Lido finally fell into the hands of real estate developers with little interest in golf - from there, the slide was inevitable.  Waterfront property was ruthlessly sold off for housing without regard for the integrity of the course. Lido Boulevard once a narrow, little used road close to the beach, became a major thoroughfare.  The tees of many holes were moved, shortening the course and leaving the once mighty Lido a shadow of its former glory.
     The course and club were a shambles:
     Lido would eventually reach its demise during World War II. The United States Government deemed Long Beach Island a strategic defense site and the U. S. Navy took over the entire area in 1942, closing down the Lido facility. To this day a portion of the original ocean-side holes is retained by the Navy.
     In 1949, a newly designed Lido course re-emerged at Long Beach on a new site. This R. T. Jones, new Lido continues to operate as a municipal course by the Township of Hempstead.  Though a fine layout, it bears little resemblance to the original Macdonald/Raynor classic of the 1920's - falling pitifully short of the original.

[George_Bahto]

I have the aerial of the property that shows some of this transition from course to housing (or whatever). Actually I believe Craig gave it to me - Tommy N has it as well

I hate to even look at that thing.

aside:

This contact I mention - his last name is Seiden - solved another problem concerning a lost Raynor course I was tring to verify.

His family also owned (or at least part owner) of the Grand Hotel in a tiny town in the NY, Catskill Mtn area, called Fleicshmanns, NY.

The hotel was huge and sat up on a mountaintop - the town is about 2 miles square or so.

He remembers his father hiring Raynor to build a 9-hole course for the hotel - the course cascaded down the mountain along the hotel entrace road. Some of it can still be recognized, although really overgrown.

The hotel has been long gone but I found the foundation and the routing of the course

as usual with a "lost Raynor" course there was a tie-in to something to do with CBM or other Raynor courses. In this case, Julius Fleischmann (yeast company) was one of the movers and shakers of the Camargo Club in Cinncinnati

In 1913, Griffin Corners became incorporated under the name of Fleischmanns, in honor of Julius Fleischmann, who at this time presented the ball ground to the village.

the Grand Hotel

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