[Wade Whitehead]

The Cascades fell from the Top 100.

There are many of us who believe it remains the finest test of true mountain golf in the country.  If nothing else, it was groundbreaking in its day, and I still say there's literally no other setting like it.

I don't know what, if anything, can be done to return the Upper to the Top 100 (assuming something should).

Anyone else disappointed in this?

WW

[TEPaul]

"Anyone else disappointed in this?"


Well, ah, yeah, I guess so.

Even though I have almost complete antipathy for these ridiculous magazine ranking lists, Wayne and I were involved in a real restoration bunker project with the Cascades in the last 3-4 years which made the course's previously really bland bunkering better. So, ah, yeah, if this is how GD's rankings rewards a good historic bunker restoration project, then I guess I could say I'm disappointed.

But looked at from the flipside it doesn't really concern me that much if one just looks at the ridiculousness of the entire concept of magazine numerical rankings. In my opinion, golf courses shouldn't be numerically ranked, they should merely have their architecture written about in those magazines.

The recent spate of threads about how to fix those magazine rankings with "super raters" or altered criteria, or the hiring of some statistician to recallibrate them or whatever just makes me laugh.

The most positive thing that could ever happen to those magazine rankings in my opinion, would be to simply shitcan all of them! 

[Roger Wolfe]

The Cascades fell from the Top 100.

There are many of us who believe it remains the finest test of true mountain golf in the country.  If nothing else, it was groundbreaking in its day, and I still say there's literally no other setting like it.

I don't know what, if anything, can be done to return the Upper to the Top 100 (assuming something should).

Anyone else disappointed in this?

WW

Truly sad... I worship the Upper Cascades.

[Kyle Harris]

The Cascades fell from the Top 100.

There are many of us who believe it remains the finest test of true mountain golf in the country.  If nothing else, it was groundbreaking in its day, and I still say there's literally no other setting like it.

I don't know what, if anything, can be done to return the Upper to the Top 100 (assuming something should).

Anyone else disappointed in this?

WW

Truly sad... I worship the Upper Cascades.

Roger,

Will this make you stop such worship?

[Greg Clark]

The Upper Cascades course is just a tremendous golfing experience.  I noticed it had fallen off the list immediately and was disappointed.  There are many great courses in this country and there are others that have played more of them than me, and could offer more informed opinions on where it belongs in a ranking system.  That being said, it is a unique playing experience and if there are 100 better than it I need to play more of them.

[Roger Wolfe]

The Cascades fell from the Top 100.

There are many of us who believe it remains the finest test of true mountain golf in the country.  If nothing else, it was groundbreaking in its day, and I still say there's literally no other setting like it.

I don't know what, if anything, can be done to return the Upper to the Top 100 (assuming something should).

Anyone else disappointed in this?

WW

Truly sad... I worship the Upper Cascades.

Roger,

Will this make you stop such worship?

I do not care about the "Top Courses" list.  Even as a private club GM most are inaccessible to me as well as 99.9999% of the golfing population.  My favorite list is the "Places You Can Play."  I hope the UC still holds a significant ranking on that one but I haven't looked.

Main worry... falling off the list and the economy will hurt the Homestead which means the conditioning will suffer.  Like the GB, its a tough time for high level, expensive resorts.

[Rich Brittingham]

There's something about that course that really makes you feel like your in a time warp.  Maybe that should be a thread on its own, but I haven't played many courses which make you feel like you should be wearing plus fours and a tie while marching down the fairway. 

[Wade Whitehead]

There's something about that course that really makes you feel like your in a time warp.  Maybe that should be a thread on its own, but I haven't played many courses which make you feel like you should be wearing plus fours and a tie while marching down the fairway. 

Well said.  The beauty of the place is that it is unchanged but relevant.

The clubhouse is understated.  There is no driving range.  The parking lot holds 20 cars, if that.  I like these things.

I'm believe no greater course could have been constructed on the property by anyone, anytime.  To me, that's the mark of a truly great layout.

WW

[Tim Gavrich]

I too was shocked to see the Cascades absent from the Top 100.  That said, I am probably one of very few people out there who prefer the Old White at the Greenbrier, albeit by a very small margin.  While the Cascades is very good, there are a couple holes I don't care for, specifically the awkward short par 4 3rd hole and the 10th.

Old White, in my opinion, has no weak holes.  It sits on less heaving ground, granted, but the subtle undulations create a lot of interesting blind and half-blind shots.  If there is one hole that might be accused of being more mundane, it would be 17, but nonetheless it is an eminently reachable par 5, providing great late-round interest.

[Wade Whitehead]

Tim: You have good insight.  I love the Old White as well.  However, I wouldn't classify it as a mountain golf course.  Its terrain is more in a valley and doesn't compete with the sidehills on which the Cascades is built.  While the Cascades and Old White come from a similar era, comparisons for me stop there.  There's no hole on the Cascades like any hole on the Old White and vice versa.

As to your other comments: The 3rd at the Cascades was a fun hole to watch when the NCAA Championship was contested there a few years back.  The entire Kentucky team (including JB (then John) Holmes) hit driver every day, as I recall.

And: If 17 at the Old White is of interest because it's a late round, imminently-reachable par 5, what of 16 and 17 at the Upper?  Add in 15 and 18 (both challenging par threes) and you've got the one course, in my view, where anything can happen past the 14th green.

[Bob_Huntley]

"Anyone else disappointed in this?"




But looked at from the flipside it doesn't really concern me that much if one just looks at the ridiculousness of the entire concept of magazine numerical rankings. In my opinion, golf courses shouldn't be numerically ranked, they should merely have their architecture written about in those magazines.

The recent spate of threads about how to fix those magazine rankings with "super raters" or altered criteria, or the hiring of some statistician to recallibrate them or whatever just makes me laugh.

The most positive thing that could ever happen to those magazine rankings in my opinion, would be to simply shitcan all of them! 

Thomas of Paul:

How right you are.

I don't think either of our courses at MPCC are ranked in the top 100, whereas a couple of neighbors are in the top five.

For the life of me I would no more want to play them to the exclusion of  our own plots than fly to the moon. This rating business is a bad joke.

Bob

[Tim Gavrich]

Tim: You have good insight.  I love the Old White as well.  However, I wouldn't classify it as a mountain golf course.  Its terrain is more in a valley and doesn't compete with the sidehills on which the Cascades is built.  While the Cascades and Old White come from a similar era, comparisons for me stop there.  There's no hole on the Cascades like any hole on the Old White and vice versa.

As to your other comments: The 3rd at the Cascades was a fun hole to watch when the NCAA Championship was contested there a few years back.  The entire Kentucky team (including JB (then John) Holmes) hit driver every day, as I recall.

And: If 17 at the Old White is of interest because it's a late round, imminently-reachable par 5, what of 16 and 17 at the Upper?  Add in 15 and 18 (both challenging par threes) and you've got the one course, in my view, where anything can happen past the 14th green.

I had never thought of the Old White as a non-mountain course, but your differentiation of the two makes perfect sense to me.  The Old White really just uses the mountains as a backdrop, where the Cascades literally plays up, down, and around them.

As for the par 5s at 16 and 17 at the Cascades, They are certainly two great match play holes, but the 3-5-5-3 finish overall was a little strange to me.  I know Old White ends with a par 3, but the lack of a par 4 in the final four holes at Cascades was kinda weird.  I might well like it more the next time I play the course.

[Wade Whitehead]

Tim: You have good insight.  I love the Old White as well.  However, I wouldn't classify it as a mountain golf course.  Its terrain is more in a valley and doesn't compete with the sidehills on which the Cascades is built.  While the Cascades and Old White come from a similar era, comparisons for me stop there.  There's no hole on the Cascades like any hole on the Old White and vice versa.

As to your other comments: The 3rd at the Cascades was a fun hole to watch when the NCAA Championship was contested there a few years back.  The entire Kentucky team (including JB (then John) Holmes) hit driver every day, as I recall.

And: If 17 at the Old White is of interest because it's a late round, imminently-reachable par 5, what of 16 and 17 at the Upper?  Add in 15 and 18 (both challenging par threes) and you've got the one course, in my view, where anything can happen past the 14th green.

I had never thought of the Old White as a non-mountain course, but your differentiation of the two makes perfect sense to me.  The Old White really just uses the mountains as a backdrop, where the Cascades literally plays up, down, and around them.

As for the par 5s at 16 and 17 at the Cascades, They are certainly two great match play holes, but the 3-5-5-3 finish overall was a little strange to me.  I know Old White ends with a par 3, but the lack of a par 4 in the final four holes at Cascades was kinda weird.  I might well like it more the next time I play the course.

The 3-5-5-3 finish endears the Cascades in my view.  No one would create a finish like that nowadays.

12 may be the best par four in Virginia.  I've always said William Flynn didn't want to have to top it down the stretch.

I don't mean any of my comments to be critical of any raters who post here.  The Cascades slipping off the list was inevitable, I suppose, but I wanted to eulogize it a bit for the record.

WW

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