[Neil_Crafter]

My sources tell me that Richard Forsyth, currently superintendent at Metropolitan, has been appointed to the post at Royal Melbourne, taking over from Jim Porter on July 1. With Peter Frewin leaving Barwon Heads, and now the top job up for grabs at Metro, there will be a cascading effect of changes in the Melbourne turf scene.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Interesting.

1) Do you think he will be charged with "Metropolitanising" it in terms of conditioning?
2) How is the RM job seen by supers these days, particularly in relation to the Metro job?

[Ian Larson]

For us yankees.....

                      what are the differences between the two courses conditioning?

                      Obviously dry and firm, but could you compare it to an american version?

[Stephen Britton]

Interesting.

1) Do you think he will be charged with "Metropolitanising" it in terms of conditioning?
2) How is the RM job seen by supers these days, particularly in relation to the Metro job?

Mark,
1) Metro has always been considered a "manicured course" compared to most other sand belt clubs, I think you will absolutely see more "attention to detail" although still in line with a typical sand belt/RM  set up.

2) RM Sup job is the pinnacle of Australian greenskeeping period!

For us yankees.....

                      what are the differences between the two courses conditioning?

                      Obviously dry and firm, but could you compare it to an american version?

Ian,

The two courses are vastly different in set up. Metro has probably the best Couch (Bermuda) fairways most people have ever seen. The bunker edges are very clean, uniform straight edges. Metro doesn't have as much heath or native areas as RM so it has a little more "park land" look than RM. Metro mows their greens all the way to the bunker edge where as RM leaves an 18" collar around all greens and also leaves their bunker edges a little rougher than Metro.

Metro bunker edge:



Royal Melbourne bunker edge: (Some of the older RM greenskeepers know who's handy work this is  )



I know with the above photos the Metro one was taken during the World Match Play and the RM one was taken during a regular week but you get the idea...

My sources tell me RM is converting some fairways to Legend Couch (Bermuda) and also looking into replacing the fairway irrigation. Currently RM has single row outdated fairway irrigation that doesn't have great coverage. I have also heard they are toying around with replacing some green surrounds with fine fescue. I'm not 100% sure but I think RM are scrapping the two grass fairway system also?

Richard will do a great job, he was easily the most experienced candidate in the country.

Still sad to see Jim go...

[Warwick Loton]

Let me add a little to Stephen's comments.

Richard has been Super at Metro for the last 15 years. The following quote from Mike Clayton's October 2001 golfclubatlas interview explains aspects of the conditioning he oversaw there (How do you do those dialogue-box quotes?)

"    7. Golfers from a round the world seemed to be highly impressed by the conditioning of Metropolitan Golf Club during World Match Play tournament in January, 2001. How have the other sandbelt courses handled the pressure to compete maintenance wise with their nearby neighbor vs. balancing the cost against pursuing such an intense degree of maintenance?
      It's true, the fairways were incredible and Metropolitan is now renowned Australia wide for their 'perfect fairways'. I’m a member there and I literally haven’t had anything less than a perfect lie in 8 years – but, I’m not sure that is such a great thing. The course plays 500 yards shorter than it used to because of the year round Couchgrass fairways, so from April to October it plays almost as it does in the Summer. It used to be an incredible long course in the Winter and it used to really change character with the seasons as Royal Melbourne still does.
      If there is a problem with such perfection it is that people now look at 'imperfect fairways' and assume they are deficient in some way. Royal Melbourne doesn’t have 'perfect fairways' but they are perfect to play golf from. No other sandbelt club has increased its budget to Metropolitan’s levels in an attempt to achieve what was so revered by the Pro’s at the Matchplay."

RM used to be known for having hard, bouncing fairways in summer. Folklore around the club used to be that the fairways were never watered. This was considered a point of pride, although it was not strictly accurate - sufficient water was applied to prevent the couch becoming seriously distressed.

My hope is that Richard will apply the skills he's demonstrated at Metro to bring back RM's glory days (decades) under Claude Crockford's green-keeping, when both fairways and greens were modestly watered. But I'm not holding my breath...


Stephen,

Two fairways have been converted to Legend Couch, on a trial basis (6 West and 12 West). Not sure that any decision's been made yet to extend this program - those fairways have only been back in play a couple of months.

Fescue has already been planted in green surrounds, and also, I think, on at least some tees (as part of a blend of grasses). As fescue's not as water-hardy as some grasses, I suspect that planting it around the greens points toward the intended watering strategy for the greens.

[Stephen Britton]

Warwick,

Thanks for the update.

Strange that they chose 6 & 12 west to trial the legend, I would have thought you would choose the smallest fairway on the non-composite course? When we replaced the first Suttons green we chose 12 east for that very reason, it was the smallest non-composite green.

I also remember 6 west fairway had a good stand of Santa Ana down on the right side by the fairway bunkers, it was always one of the better looking fairways on the west every summer?

Do you know if the two grass system has been terminated?

[Jon Wiggett]

Why don't they go for wall to wall fescue?

[Anthony_Nysse]

Why don't they go for wall to wall fescue?

Cause it gets over 100 degrees during their summer months andfescue fairways just wouldnt make it.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Warwick Loton]

Jim,
Thanks for the PM


Stephen,
I'm not aware of plans to go to a single grass system, but there are hopes of replacing poa with fescue as the winter grass. 6 West is to be used to trial this arrangement. (That hole will be trialed for Legend couch and fescue concurrently.) If trial results are satisfactory, then the idea is to roll fescue out as the winter grass across both courses, and to do so by around 2013. That's the official line.

I played recently with a long-term RM member who has also served on the committee of another club that has been through 'turf issues'. He speculated that there might be an alternative line of thinking, that fescue may eventually be used selectively, according to where it grows happily on the courses. They'd really struggled with fescue when they trialed it at his other course.

I'm unsure why those two fairways were picked. There seems clear logic to the approach you mention, trialing on short non-Composite holes. However, if there were to be a lack of confidence that fescue would thrive on all fairways, then possibly 6W & 12W were chosen because they were considered particularly promising candidates - that's just idle conjecture.

The real concern seems to be ridding the greens of poa, which is proving a challenge (at least with the methods being employed). In the absence of this issue, perhaps there wouldn't be an impetus to replace poa as the winter grass.

I have a question about poa control on RM's greens. During the Crockford decades (1937-75) it was not a problem. He kept the greens lean-and-mean, with minimal watering & fertilising. The result was brownish greens that were hard, fast and true - reputedly the world's best. Many (eg Graeme Grant) seem to think this watering regime prevented poa infestation from becoming a problem - clearly poa will struggle if not sufficiently watered during a Melbourne summer, and it needs more frequent watering than bent grass. However, I've also heard accounts that Crockford treated his greens with strong pesticides, which are now considered toxic and thus unsafe to use. So the question is whether Crockford's watering regime alone was sufficient to prevent poa infestation, or whether nasty chemicals also played an essential/significant role?


Tony,
We had a few days in succession around 110-115 degrees this year!

[Stephen Britton]

Why don't they go for wall to wall fescue?

Anthony hit the nail on the head.

I have a question about poa control on RM's greens. During the Crockford decades (1937-75) it was not a problem. He kept the greens lean-and-mean, with minimal watering & fertilising. The result was brownish greens that were hard, fast and true - reputedly the world's best. Many (eg Graeme Grant) seem to think this watering regime prevented poa infestation from becoming a problem - clearly poa will struggle if not sufficiently watered during a Melbourne summer, and it needs more frequent watering than bent grass. However, I've also heard accounts that Crockford treated his greens with strong pesticides, which are now considered toxic and thus unsafe to use. So the question is whether Crockford's watering regime alone was sufficient to prevent poa infestation, or whether nasty chemicals also played an essential/significant role?

Warwick,

This is the 64 million dollar question and I'm sure everybody has their own theories.

I worked there for almost nine years under Jim Porter. When I started the non-composite greens were the original Suttons and the composite greens were Penncross. We had an Egmont chipping green, half of the main putting green was original Suttons and the other half was Penncross. We had another putting green we called “the five grass” over by the tennis courts that had five different bents all in neat sections and labeled, these were Suttons, Penncross, Egmont, Cobra and I can't remember the fifth. Anyway, my point is all the greens were surrounded by Poa Annua green surrounds and all were Poa free. I'm not sure what the process was when they replaced the composite greens to Penncross, this was started by Peter Williams (Claude Crockford's protégé) in 1988 and when Jim came on board in 1989 (ironically from Metropolitan) he still had 12 greens on the composite to convert to Penncross. What I can tell you is contrary to belief Jim keep the greens very lean and underwatered, I know because I sprayed them and was a part of watering them for a long time.

Remember, back in the Crockford years I'm sure there wasn't near the traffic as today and if you could go back in time I would love to see just how fast those greens really were compared to today??? 9' on the stimp may have been really fast to the members back then? There was nothing to truly measure the speeds back then and now all we have are stories and rumors that the greens were faster 50 years ago than they are today.

IMO the chemicals that Crockford and maybe even Williams were applying back then had a lot to do with the Poa free greens. Present day watering/fertilizer practices aren't solely to blame for the Poa problem. I have heard stories from greenskeepers that worked under Crockford and they would turn over Arsenic based pesticides into the topdressing by hand to topdress the greens annually. Obviously these trace elements stay in the sand for a long time and in leads case forever.

Back to when Peter Williams began and Jim completed the composite greens conversion with Penncross, I'm not sure how much of the native sand was disturbed? For example, they may have simply stripped the old Suttons and laid down new Penncross sod or seed. In the recent case of the greens replacement it was far more extensive than that. To cut a long story short we stripped the old sod, dumped it in a huge hole between 3w & 6W, gassed the greens with Methyl Bromide, rotary tilled the sand, laser leveled the original contours using Cad leveling programs and also added purchased sand where needed. It’s no secret that this may have affected the long lasting residual effect of these Arsenic based pesticides and also the micro-biology that had been keeping the greens Poa and disease free. Immediately after the new greens were seeded we were experiencing extensive Poa infestation and diseases that had never before been seen on the greens, namely several different fairy rings.

Another theory is as we all know Crockford rarely “aerified” the greens. Every few years he would strip the greens with a sod cutter (stacking the sod beside the green), and then remove the thatch by sod cutting again back to the sand. They would then lay the sod back on the sand. Maybe, not opening up the greens twice a year by aerifying (which is what they do now) helped by not giving the Poa seed a ¾” hole to settle into and germinate?

Hindsight is 20-20 and maybe the club should never have touched the original Suttons greens similar to how the Old Course treats their greens today. I wouldn’t be surprised if sometime in the future you see these Suttons greens ripped up again and the club will resort to one of these modern Penn A’s and G’s bents. Although, if it were my decision the fairways and green surrounds would be Poa free before I replaced a green. The two grass system has had its day and needs to go, the fairways need to be clean Couch. I think the fine fescue green surrounds would be great if they can establish it…

Just to think we dumped all that precious Suttons sod in a hole....

[David Stamm]

Can anyone comment if this will be potentially a good move for RM based on the track record of Mr Forsyth?

[Don_Mahaffey]

"Another theory is as we all know Crockford never “aerified” the greens. Every few years he would strip the greens with a sod cutter (stacking the sod beside the green), and then remove the thatch by sod cutting again back to the sand. They would then lay the sod back on the sand. Maybe not opening up the greens twice a year (which is what they do now) helped by not giving the Poa seed a ¾” hole to settle into and germinate?"

Wow, I'll never whine about aerfying the greens again. Talk about keeping thatch under control, that method will do it, but you'd better have some damn good help operating the sod cutter and laying the sod back down.

With some of the grasses we use now, especially the ultra dwarf bermudas, using this method every couple of years is not a bad idea.

[Jon Wiggett]

Why don't they go for wall to wall fescue?

Cause it gets over 100 degrees during their summer months andfescue fairways just wouldnt make it.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

Why don't they go for wall to wall fescue?

Anthony hit the nail on the head.

Anthony, Steven,

I brought a wall to wall fescue course through two summers of 40°C+ with no problems so I know it will take the heat even if it does go quite brown in the afternoon. The only thing I can think of is it is too humid but my recolection of my time spent on the Melbourne area is not that it was humid.

ps. the course remained poa free as well

[Stephen Britton]

Why don't they go for wall to wall fescue?

Cause it gets over 100 degrees during their summer months andfescue fairways just wouldnt make it.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

Why don't they go for wall to wall fescue?

Anthony hit the nail on the head.

Anthony, Steven,

I brought a wall to wall fescue course through two summers of 40°C+ with no problems so I know it will take the heat even if it does go quite brown in the afternoon. The only thing I can think of is it is too humid but my recolection of my time spent on the Melbourne area is not that it was humid.

ps. the course remained poa free as well

Couple of questions,

1) Was this on sand?
2) Did you grow in the fescue? Seed or sod...
3) Did you have readily available water, good irrigation coverage etc...

[Anthony_Nysse]

Why don't they go for wall to wall fescue?

Cause it gets over 100 degrees during their summer months andfescue fairways just wouldnt make it.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

Why don't they go for wall to wall fescue?

Anthony hit the nail on the head.

Anthony, Steven,

I brought a wall to wall fescue course through two summers of 40°C+ with no problems so I know it will take the heat even if it does go quite brown in the afternoon. The only thing I can think of is it is too humid but my recolection of my time spent on the Melbourne area is not that it was humid.

ps. the course remained poa free as well

Why even waste your time worry about fesuce going brown or surviving in temps that its not desinged for when you can have healthy, thriving bermudagrass? Fesuce cant take the traffic, the heat, HAS to have a good water source and is slow to recover, especially if you verticutting or aerifying.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Anthony_Nysse]

Can anyone comment if this will be potentially a good move for RM based on the track record of Mr Forsyth?

David,
   Judging by pics and what other supts have said, The Met club's conditioning speeks for itself.

[Stephen Britton]

Great points, Go with what’s tried and true at your location. There isn't a golf course on the Melbourne sand belt with fescue fairways. If the fescue conversion didn't work we would have the same problem we have with the greens now.

Another point to make about these greens is the only information available regarding Suttons maintenance is what has been done at Royal Melbourne from day one. Remember, the new Suttons greens aren't "exactly" the same as the old. When they took samples from the old greens back to the lab to propagate a hand full of the old bents wouldn't set seed.

There is something to be said for seeding greens that have a plethora of information from University research and other clubs with the same grasses.

It's not like Richard can call on another Sup (except for Jim) with Suttons greens to trade ideas, RM is the only site with this grass. I think at one point back in the day several sand belt clubs did have Suttons greens although most have either been re-built or infested with Poa.

Actually Royal Adelaide may have Suttons greens? Neil Crafter would know?

[Neil_Crafter]

Stephen
In answer to your last question, old H L "Cargie" Rymill, original architect of Royal Adelaide with Gardiner, and sole designer of Kooyonga, visited the UK in 1923 and shortly thereafter was advertising himself as an agent in Australia for Suttons Seeds. So I would tend to think that Kooyonga would most likely have been sown with Suttons Mix, or a form thereof, but Royal Adelaide's greens were quite a bit older. As Rymill had nothing further to do with RA after he had resigned as their secretary, I would think it doubtful that he would have got Suttons into RA. But who knows for sure?

I recall a conversation my father Brian relayed to me from his days in commentating on one of the big tournaments at RM in the eighties, shortly after Peter Williams had taken over, and that his key to Poa control was minimal inputs of everything, water, fertilisers etc, essentially to starve the Poa out of existence.

[Chris Kane]

David,
   Judging by pics and what other supts have said, The Met club's conditioning speeks for itself.

Does it?  I've never seen the greens in good condition.

[Stephen Britton]

I recall a conversation my father Brian relayed to me from his days in commentating on one of the big tournaments at RM in the eighties, shortly after Peter Williams had taken over, and that his key to Poa control was minimal inputs of everything, water, fertilisers etc, essentially to starve the Poa out of existence.

Pretty generic answer from Peter Williams, basic Poa control 101 in bent greens. Obviously Poa needs more water due to shallower roots than bent, it requires more N than bent also but, I have seen some pretty healthy Poa in the hungriest, drought stressed bent greens you can imagine. This is everyone's approach to Poa control although, those old RM greens were so clean of Poa and given that they were surrounded by Poa in the surrounds and the fairways during the winter my bets are on the old Arsenic based pesticides in the sand doing most of the work... Just my opinion.

[Jon Wiggett]

Couple of questions,

1) Was this on sand?
2) Did you grow in the fescue? Seed or sod...
3) Did you have readily available water, good irrigation coverage etc...

Stephen,

the course was on atleast 50 foot of sand/gravel. The fescue was grown from seed. We had a basic irrigation system, single row fairway and block system tees and greens but we used little water. I think maybe taking the water from just below the surface of the irrigation pond (-2ft) meant that the temperature difference was less between it and the ground temperature so causing less of a shock and a growth stop.

One thing I also noticed is that the fesue outside the irrigation seemed to do very well as well on just the mist from the irrigation

Why even waste your time worry about fesuce going brown or surviving in temps that its not desinged for when you can have healthy, thriving bermudagrass? Fesuce cant take the traffic, the heat, HAS to have a good water source and is slow to recover, especially if you verticutting or aerifying.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

Tony,

Fesuce cant take the traffic: fescue will take a suprising amount of wear and tear if you look after it properly. If the ground is firm and the soil has enough air in it then even dormant grasses will hold up to a suprising amount of traffic. To put it in simple terms, grass usually dies due to lack of oxygen caused by compaction and not by the substance of the grass wearing out due to the amount of traffic going over it. Were wearing out the problem then bemuda would be worn away through the winter when it is dormant. A regular programme of spiking, star tining and slitting is more than enough to ensure fescue will stay around.

The heat: Quite clearly you haven't read my post I can assure you that it most certainly can.

HAS to have a good water source: Again, not any more than any other grass type and less than many. The fetish of over watering has done more damage to more courses than any other single thing.

is slow to recover: Not my experience.

Especially if you verticutting or aerifying: If by aerifying you mean hollow/solid tining and your verticutting in a period of low growth then your programme is at fault.

Tony,

I was simply interested with why at RM the fairways were not fescue. I never said that I thought that fescue was the best grass and I was hoping to get some worth while points and comments from people like Stephen and I thought you. I shared my experience of fescue about its ability to cope with heat and I find it a shame that I get such an off the cuff and frankly ill mannered answer from a fellow greenkeeper.

Any greenkeeper regardless of his position will get much more out of the profession if they keep an open mind and listen/learn the experiences of others about things they themslves might not fully understand. This is true even in cases where that information might never be useful in practice in their career. 

On what is your opinion of fescue based? On the experience of working with it on a course which was successful at maintaining it or just theoretical. The reason I ask is you make a statement that I know to be clearly incorrect and that shows that you have either not read my post or have closed your mind to other opinions and worst still other peoples experiences.

I recall a conversation my father Brian relayed to me from his days in commentating on one of the big tournaments at RM in the eighties, shortly after Peter Williams had taken over, and that his key to Poa control was minimal inputs of everything, water, fertilisers etc, essentially to starve the Poa out of existence.

 those old RM greens were so clean of Poa and given that they were surrounded by Poa in the surrounds and the fairways during the winter my bets are on the old Arsenic based pesticides in the sand doing most of the work... Just my opinion.

If fescue cant survive then how come poa does?

[Stephen Britton]

Jon,

Good to hear about your success with the fescue, personally I don't have a lot of experience with fescue in a fairway situation. I mentioned that if they could establish it in the surrounds I think that could have potential. Jim was toying with the idea a few years back with replacing the poa surrounds with velvet bent. As far as the fairways go my opinion is they should just go to one grass couch fairways, in regards to the poa in the fairways from what I hear, with the recent drought the poa isn't surviving the winter?

Also the poa in the surrounds has been established for many many years and adapted to it's situation. This is why it still lives (along with irrigation from the greens), although I think to keep the greens poa free it has to come out and either a fescue or couch must be established.

These photos are from Mark Bourgeois's thread a few months back at RMGC. These are the only photos I could find that look like they were taken in the winter, notice the sparce poa.

[Jon Wiggett]

Stephen,

I had the good fortune to play RM back in the summer of 1998/99. I found the east to be very good with the west being outstanding. I grew up around Leeds, north east England which is prime Mackenzie land. I noticed around the west that although the look was quiet different the general questions asked of the golfer was very similar to those asked by Alwoodley, Headingly, etc.

The course played well although some areas around the green were fluffy. I have no knowledge of couch grass or how to maintain it so I can't make a comment on its suitability compared to other grasses. What I look at when selecting a grass is its playing characteristics. If they are the ones required then and the grass is suited to the climate then it should be okay. Notice, I don't say its maintenance pros and cons, if the course is playing well and it is sustainable long term then this is of secondary importance.

By the way, velvet bent is a great grass but you need to keep on top of the thatch which it builds up almost as quick as you can verticut it.

[Stephen Britton]

The course played well although some areas around the green were fluffy. I have no knowledge of couch grass or how to maintain it so I can't make a comment on its suitability compared to other grasses. What I look at when selecting a grass is its playing characteristics. If they are the ones required then and the grass is suited to the climate then it should be okay. Notice, I don't say its maintenance pros and cons, if the course is playing well and it is sustainable long term then this is of secondary importance.

By the way, velvet bent is a great grass but you need to keep on top of the thatch which it builds up almost as quick as you can verticut it.

The velvet was just a shot in the dark. We established a small plot on the nursery and soon came to the same conclusion, too thatchy.

Strange that some areas around the greens were fluffy? 95% of the green surrounds at RM are tightly mown poa.

[James Bennett]

My understanding is that the sutton's mix is more 'brown top bent' in nature than creeping bent.  As such, it is not an easy grass to deal with in extreme heat, and will be more difficult than say A1 bent to manage during summer.  The writings on the greens and surrounds maintenance makes fascinating reading guys.  Thanks.

The critical issue that I see is how the playability of Royal Melbourne will be affected by any change of turf-types.  I do not know the course well enough to know the two Legend couch trial holes.  However, I have enjoyed the Legend couch used at St Andrews beach, at Ranfurlie and at Rosanna.  It is far preferable in my opinion to the dwarf-leaf of Santa Anna as used at Metropolitan..  It seems to play closer in style and speed to the traditional couch grass.

The test for the trial holes (in my opinion) will be how the ball moves on the slopes.  If the roll is similar with Legend to that under the old two-grass policy, then the trial could be a success.  If the ball roll increases (as it would with Santa Anna) then there will be a major problem.

James B

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