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J_McKenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
A Georgia Sleeper (back nine added)
« on: April 24, 2009, 12:47:10 PM »
I’m obviously biased, but after spending a couple of days this week looking through  construction photos of Kinderlou Forest Golf Club, it struck me as odd that this course doesn’t get more mention during conversations regarding golf courses in the state of Georgia.  It’s located in southern part of the state, just off Interstate-75 in the town of Valdosta.  It is the site of this week’s Nationwide Tour event- The South Georgia Classic, and has hosted college tournaments, as well as a few notable Georgia amateur events since it’s opening in 2004.

This course was designed and constructed by Love Golf Design and is notable for two “firsts” in the company’s history: 1) it was the first time the design team was given the freedom to route the course wherever they wanted it to go- unique given that it was a real estate driven project, and 2) it was LGD’s first original 18-hole design after Davis and Mark Love had been blown away by the MacDonald/Raynor design style- Davis at Chicago Golf Club and Mark at Yeamans Hall and Charleston CC. 

Kinderlou is a big golf course, a lot of width and all the length you could want at 7,781 from the tips- although it wasn’t originally designed to play that long on paper.  The bunker strategy is fairly conservative, yet natural features on the property such as ravines, creeks, and an old borrow-pit provide plenty of hazards to challenge players of any skill level.  The land the course is routed on is quite diverse, especially for South Georgia, with substantial elevation changes on the front nine and more subtle topography on the back.  The front nine is very open and plays as more of a core course, while the back is tree-lined and plays in a clockwise loop.  This diversity was actually somewhat of a concern during the design and construction process, but the consistency of the design style seems to tie everything together pretty well.

The golf course can be seen on the Golf Channel this week with their coverage of the Nationwide Tour.  For those that are interested, here is a quick photo tour:

Hole #1 from the tee, a 417 yards, par-4 (back tee).  This hole plays slightly uphill, but provides a fairly gentle start to the round- just avoid the fairway bunkers on the right.


#1 approach- Mid to short iron to a smallish green protected by oaks on the right and a deep bunker left.


Hole #2 from the tee, 601 yards, par-5.  The two back tees play over a deep ravine to a fairway that runs almost perpendicular to the angle of play off the tee.  A good drive here for the longer hitter does offer a chance to get to the green in two.


#2 from the first landing area.  The second shot plays very much downhill and opens up more the closer you can get to the green.  For those having to lay farther back, the second shot has to be played between the wetland and bunker on the right and the trees and ravine to the left.  A less than ideal drive will typically leave this as a blind second shot.


#2 from the second landing area.  A successful layup will leave a short iron approach off a downhill lie to a green that is tilted left to right and away from you in the back.


Hole #3 from the tee, 490 yards, par-4.  Statistically the hardest hole on the golf course, this slight dogleg right is one of the few flat holes on the course.  The tee shot plays through a chute of trees to a fairly generous landing area protected on the right by two fairway bunkers.   
 

#3 approach- long iron or fairway wood that has to be shaped into the green from the right to avoid the natural wetland to the left.  There is a bailout area right of the green and the approach area on this side of the green is contoured to feed run-up shots onto the putting surface.  The big tree leaning over the fairway is not native to the area (it was an experimental species planted many years ago) and unfortunately, has now been lost due to storm damage.
 

Hole #4, from the tee, 657 yards, par-5.  The tee shot needs to challenge the bunkers on the right in order to have the best angle of play on the second shot.  The fairway does slope a good bit right to left, but not as much as it appears in this picture.


#4 first landing area- multiple options for the second shot include laying up short and left of the big pine leaving a mid iron approach to the green, challenging the pit and going right of the big pine leaving a short iron approach, or for the longer hitter, going for the green in two.  This photo is looking over the borrow pit, toward the green flanked by three bunkers, and doesn’t show the generous fairway that exists left and around the big pine.


#4 second landing area past the big pine tree.  Slightly downhill approach with a short iron to a thumbprint green surrounded by three bunkers.  The green rolls off long and to the right into closely mown chipping areas.


« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 03:39:58 PM by J_McKenzie »

J_McKenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Georgia Sleeper
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2009, 12:51:06 PM »
Hole #5 from the tee, 195 yards, par-3.  Mid to long iron shot over the borrow pit to a large green that is wider than it is deep.  Bailout areas exist to both sides of the green and long.  This borrow pit was created during the construction of the nearby highway.  The original design thought was to put the green down into the pit, but several factors, including agronomic concerns, contributed to moving it to its current position.


Hole #6 from the tee, 435 yards, par-4.  Shinnecock comes to South Georgia after Davis and Mark felt the layout of this hole and surrounding elevation reminded them of one of their Long Island favorites.  The tee shot is very much downhill and must avoid the numerous fairway bunkers.  The front bunker on the right shouldn’t come into play and the tee shot should favor the right side of the fairway for the best approach into the green.


#6 approach- Typically this uphill second only requires a short iron, but as this photo shows, the best angle of play is from the right side of the fairway.  A big false front and deep greenside bunker guard the left and front, so long and right are the best options.  The pinnable area on this green is approximately 3,000 sq. ft., so this is one of the most demanding approach shots on the golf course.


Hole #7 from the tee, 364 yards, par-4.  Depending on the conditions and course set-up, this can play as a drivable par-4 by going just right of the oak tree on the hill to the right.  The normal play is a driver or layup aimed at the bunker straight through the fairway.


#7 approach.  Those going for the green from the tee miss one of the cooler shots on the course.  A perfectly placed layup will leave an uphill, short iron approach through two of the fairway bunkers and a saddled-out fairway to a skyline green that is mostly blind.  The green is protected by a deep bunker front and right of the green and a deep bunker behind the green.


Hole #8 from the tee, 191 yards, par-3.  A very Raynor-ish green sits between two beautiful oaks at this medium length par-3.  The green is flanked on the left by two deep greenside bunkers and the putting surface features three quadrants- the back is an elevated plateau and the front is a lower plateau split in two equal halves by a 2-3 ft. ridge running from front to back.


Hole #9 from the tee, 484 yards, par-4.  Slightly blind and uphill tee shot that plays into a very generous landing area.  The short bunker on the left is really not in play and a drive that carries it will typically find the fairway.


#9 approach- a mid to long iron approach over or between two cross bunkers that are 40-50 yards short of the green.  The ninth green is one of the biggest on the course and is bisected by a large ridge running through the green’s center.  Plenty of room is available in front for running something into the green, yet going long leaves a tricky up and down.


Back nine to come later....

« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 12:55:59 PM by J_McKenzie »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: A Georgia Sleeper
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2009, 01:26:17 PM »
John:

The pictures look very neat.  And to think we listen to Mike Young whinge about how Georgia turf limits the options for building cool features.  ;)

The most remarkable part of your post, though, is your first "first" ... that this is the very first course where you were able to put the holes where you wanted to!  Most observers here do not appreciate this part of the process, and how little many architects have to say about it when there is housing or a resort involved.


Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Georgia Sleeper
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2009, 01:41:49 PM »
Can errant approach shots to #2 green run into any of the bunkers, or are they in play only for shots hit into them on the fly?  Are the bunker surrounds kept closely mown (as opposed to the pictures of Rustic that prompted discussion in other threads)?

"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Georgia Sleeper
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2009, 02:24:34 PM »
Thanks for posting the Kinderlou pictures, John. The course looks terrific.

I love the wash-out on the 5th and the skyline approach on the 7th.

The wash-out deserves special mention. They occur naturally in the SE. They are as close as we are going to get around here to the "blow-out" bunkers you see on links and sand hills courses. The difference being, of course, that they are the by-product of erosion and not wind.

C&C should get credit for using them at several spots on Cuscowilla, where they work wonderfully well.

It has taken, literally, decades for people to accept wash-outs as interesting design features and not as a sign that the course ran out of money.

Can't wait to get to Valdosta to play Kinderlou.

Bob

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Georgia Sleeper
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2009, 02:36:35 PM »
Now we're talking.  The pictures look very cool and you can obviously see their stated influences.

Can someone play a ball out of the tall brown grass that flanks the 6th hole?
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Georgia Sleeper
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2009, 03:10:14 PM »
John:

The pictures look very neat.  And to think we listen to Mike Young whinge about how Georgia turf limits the options for building cool features.  ;)

The most remarkable part of your post, though, is your first "first" ... that this is the very first course where you were able to put the holes where you wanted to!  Most observers here do not appreciate this part of the process, and how little many architects have to say about it when there is housing or a resort involved.



I have played Kinderlou a few times now and enjoy it very much......and now I got to go "whinge" some about Ga turf... ;D ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

J_McKenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Georgia Sleeper
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2009, 03:16:39 PM »
Tom D.,

Thanks for the compliment and regarding your comment about the freedom of routing- I took a second look at our portfolio.  Out of 17 original 18 hole designs, we've been given opportunity to route the entire course prior to land planning restraints only three times.  Two of those courses are not yet open for play.  The 14 other designs were within the framework of a master plan, although we were able to make routing revisions on all of those, sometimes significant revisions.  These revisions always balanced lot yields and in many cases, increased them, while improving the golf experience.  I would even venture to say that in at least one development, our routing revisions netted enough increased value in lot sales to almost pay for the cost of the golf course.....

Kevin,

I believe most of the green surrounds are closely mown allowing balls to run into bunkers or chipping areas.  I do know that for some period of time the grass on most of the steep bunker faces was allowed to grow long, sometimes keeping balls from rolling back into the sand.  I believe that situation has been remedied.

David,

Since the course first opened, a lot of the higher grass has been mowed down.  While it was still in place, it could be hit or miss with regards to playability, although I would guess that 90% of the time you could find and play your ball.  

Due to concerns on our part with the overall budget number, we did not extend irrigation into the out of play areas.  This resulted in these areas remaining fairly thin, although from a distance it looked pretty intimidating.  Growing native grasses in the south can be a big challenge, balancing playability with trying to achieve a certain aesthetic look.  We certainly learned some lessons at Kinderlou and we are still working with them on a finding the proper balance.

Thanks, John

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Georgia Sleeper
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2009, 03:25:05 PM »
Thanks for posting the Kinderlou pictures, John. The course looks terrific.

I love the wash-out on the 5th and the skyline approach on the 7th.

The wash-out deserves special mention. They occur naturally in the SE. They are as close as we are going to get around here to the "blow-out" bunkers you see on links and sand hills courses. The difference being, of course, that they are the by-product of erosion and not wind.

C&C should get credit for using them at several spots on Cuscowilla, where they work wonderfully well.

It has taken, literally, decades for people to accept wash-outs as interesting design features and not as a sign that the course ran out of money.

Can't wait to get to Valdosta to play Kinderlou.

Bob

I'm thinking about a round the day I drive to Aiken for the Dixie Cup in November.  Maybe we could set up a rendezvous that day for any interested parties..........

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Georgia Sleeper
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2009, 04:15:16 PM »
My scheduled round there in October got rained out  :'(, but I went out of my way to stop in anyways and see what I could.  Liked what I saw.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Georgia Sleeper
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2009, 04:26:28 PM »
Wonderful golf course.  I've been there three times, and it is worth going out of the way to play.  Very, very cool set of greens, and the Love group made great use of some existing features like an old quarry pit.  A joy to play.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

J_McKenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Georgia Sleeper
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2009, 03:15:57 PM »
I was not able to get this posted earlier and debated whether to follow up, but I said the back nine would come later and here it is:

Hole #10 from the tee, 445 yards, par-4.  The tee shot plays across a small valley to a fairway that slopes significantly from left to right.  The best play is to aim just right of a large group of oaks on the left side of the landing area.  Drives hit to the right will usually find the large fairway bunker.


#10 approach- a stance that favors a left to right ball flight adds challenge to this uphill mid iron approach.  The green is fairly large, more wide than deep, and is fronted by two greenside bunkers. Finding one these bunkers may be favorable for a shot hit short of the green, as the fairway severely slopes back away from the green repelling balls farther down the hill leaving difficult recovery options.


Hole #11 from the tee, 566 yards, par-5.  Historically, the easiest hole at Kinderlou because it is usually reachable in two with a good tee shot.  However, the tee shot needs to shaped around three fairway bunkers that are all in play.  The irrigation lake that is barely visible to the right of the big bunker is definitely in play for shots missed to the right, the only time a lake or pond is in play on the course.


#11 first landing area- a good drive will leave a three wood or long iron shot into the green that must carry a series of cross bunkers.  A shot played over the middle of the first two cross bunkers can be run onto the green as the upper fairway is shaped to feed balls toward the putting surface.  Options are available for those choosing to lay up, either playing short or to the right or to the left of the cross bunkers.  The left option carries more risk, but does offer the reward of a wide open approach to the green.


#11 second landing area right of the cross bunkers- Lay-ups played to the right of the cross bunkers still leave two deep greenside bunkers to play over for the third shot.  The green is tilted from left to right and back to front leaving very few straight putts.


Hole #12 from the tee, 469 yards, par-4.  This is statistically the toughest par-4 on the back nine, primarily due to the challenge of hitting the fairway off the tee.  The fairway slopes left to right away from the dogleg which plays right to left.  The inside of the dogleg is protected by a large fairway bunker, so visually it is a very intimidating tee shot, even though the landing area is fairly generous.  This hole transitions the course into a more traditional South Georgia environment- pine trees and wire grass, plus the elevation changes become a little more subdued.


#12 approach- A good tee shot still leaves a long iron approach to a very low profile green with subtle runoffs around all sides.  The sudden “Pinehurst” feel is accentuated by another Ross design features- a deceptive short fairway bunker on the left that appears greenside, yet is really about 30 yards out from the green.  This bunker hides the left portion of the green from view and really challenges distance perception.


Hole #13 from the tee, 466 yards, par-4.  This ninety degree dogleg right starts out with a blind downhill tee shot that really challenges a player mentally.  The view from the tee is deceptive in that the tee shot looks shorter than it plays, putting some doubt into club selection.  The safe play is down the middle or favoring the left, but this typically leaves a long iron approach.  The aggressive play is down the right or even trying to cut the corner of the dogleg, which can set up a mid to short iron approach.  However, a tee shot not hit solidly or missed to the right will find tree trouble and more than likely lead to a lay-up second shot. 


#13 approach- a tee shot finding the fairway leaves a level to slightly down hill approach to a right to left sloping green protected on the right by a large bunker and in front and to the left by a small creek.  The creek was created as a visual and strategic design feature in lieu of installing subsurface drainage.


Hole #14 from the tee, 580 yards, par-5.  Along with #3, this is the only other relatively flat hole on the course and it plays as a double dogleg par-5.  The creek that was created at the 13th green continues down the left side of the 14th for almost the entire length of the hole.  It serves as a risk/reward feature off the tee and if successfully carried can give the longer hitter an opportunity to get to the green in two.


#14 first landing area- the second shot here is usually a long iron or fairway wood lay-up that needs to favor the left side of the fairway to set up the best angle into the green.  A shot going too far left will find the creek and a shot missed to the right, even in the fairway, will leave an approach that has to be worked around or over a group of pine trees.  Barely visible in this photo is a fairway bunker located to the outside of the second dogleg.  This bunker serves as a pretty good target and defines the right hand turn of the fairway.


#14 first landing area- view from a tee shot that has carried the creek on the left and offers the long hitter the option to go for the green in two.  The green is behind the trees on the right and can be reached by going over the top or shaping a shot left to right around the trees, even though it doesn’t look like a very appealing option in this image.


#14 second landing area- a well placed lay-up will leave a short iron or wedge approach into this narrow green mostly hidden and well protected by a large, front greenside bunker.  A birdie is a very good score on this par-5.


« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 03:35:34 PM by J_McKenzie »

J_McKenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Georgia Sleeper
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2009, 03:28:53 PM »
Hole #15 from the tee, 240 yards, par-3.  A long par-3 that was designed to accommodate a low right to left running tee shot.  When combined with the downhill nature of the approach, this hole usually plays shorter than the given yardage. There is plenty of bail out to the right of the green and the green slopes right to left and slightly front to back.  This is a photo taken during the early stages of grow-in and the brownish area between the tees and green show the affects of an overnight army worm infestation.  This hole begins the transition of the course out of the pines and back into more open terrain and hardwoods.
 

Hole #16 from the tee, 464 yards, par-4.  A downhill, dogleg left that requires a solid tee to avoid having a long iron approach.  Anything hit to the left is dead, yet challenging the left fairway bunker can lead to a much shorter second shot.


#16 approach- A straight downhill second shot to a Biarritz-styled green protected on the left by two deep greenside bunkers and on the right by closely mown chipping swales.  Anything hit long will run down into a lateral hazard, so back pin placements are very difficult to challenge.  If a proposed dam ever gets built, the area of trees to the left and behind the green will become part of a fairly large lake, dramatically changing the look of this hole.


Hole #17, 216 yards, par-3.  This par-3 plays across a creek/ravine to a smallish, angled green that has a similar strategy to the 12th at Augusta National- except that you’re hitting a long iron instead of a short iron, there’s room to miss long, and there's no Rae’s Creek in front.  Other than that they’re almost identical.........


Hole #18 from the tee, 501 yards, par-4.  A very strong dogleg left finisher that is not only long, but it also plays uphill.  This hole is an ideal par 4 ½.  The tee shot should favor the left side to shorten the hole (plus the ball will move to the right once on the ground), yet you need to avoid the two fairway bunkers barely visible on the inside of the dogleg.  The farthest bunker visible through the fairway is a good aiming point.


#18 approach- a long uphill approach to a green that is mostly blind and protected by a very deep bunker on the right.  The green here was loosely modeled after the 18th at Winged Foot West, although the bunker has been moved to the right, and there are closely mown chipping swales to the left.  The green is narrow and deep, a tough end to a tough golf hole.
 

Kinderlou Forest is a long golf course, but if played from the right set of tees, tournament- 7,257 yds, member- 6,662 yds, regular- 6,093 yds, forward- 5,364 yds., it can be a fun test of golf for anybody.  It’s not a penal design, there’s plenty of room to play, the forced carries are limited, and the greens are the appropriate size and contour for the anticipated shot.  The course is always well maintained, the staff is friendly, they’ve got really good food, cold beer, and the overall price makes it a real value for a round of golf. 
 

Emil Weber

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Georgia Sleeper (back nine added)
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2009, 04:33:17 PM »
WOW, playing golf at this place must be pure fun...

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