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John Kirk

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Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« on: March 11, 2009, 01:39:59 PM »
I heard from a friend that Golfweek's new top 100 lists are out this week.  All I know is the modern top 10 so far:

1. Sand Hills
2. Pacific Dunes
3. Whistling Straits
4. Pete Dye Golf Club
5. Bandon Dunes
6. Friar's Head
7. Sebonack
8. Ballyneal
9. The Golf Club
10. Shadow Creek

Sebonack ahead of Ballyneal?  I can't take it any longer!

Somebody please post the lists soon.  This is my favorite discussion of the year, since it gives us a chance to compare and discuss many courses.  It also prevents me from making bold, definitive predictions about future stock market performance.

John Kirk

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2009, 01:46:58 PM »
On my wish list, I hope Stone Eagle sneaks into the top 100, but I'm doubtful.  I want Witch Hollow to stay in the top 100.  I'd like to see Rock Creek break top 60 or so, and wonder where Mountaintop or Cornerstone will debut.

Make your predictions quick; I think the lists will be on here in short order.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2009, 01:49:51 PM »
You mean to tell me that Matt Ward's prediction that Tetherow would pass Bandon Dunes didn't come true?
;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Cory Lewis

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2009, 01:52:50 PM »
I wonder if one of the new classic restorations will appear on the list like Cal Club or Sleepy Hollow?
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Tim Bert

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2009, 01:58:13 PM »
I'd like to see upward mobility for Kingsley. It is a better course than whistling straits or bandon dunes in my opinion.

Rich Goodale

Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2009, 02:07:12 PM »
New "Best of" List, Rearranging the Deck Chairs on the "Titanic" and Watching Paint Dry.

Compare and Contrast.

Tom Huckaby

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2009, 02:17:02 PM »
Well I already got my most important prediction wrong... which was that the guys from GW would finally grow a pair, quit wussing out behind this "classical/modern" distinction and make some truly tough choices.  I guess I am too wildly optomistic.

 ;D ;D

TH

note to newbies and others:  this is tongue in cheek!  It's just the required statement each time this comes out, part of the long running good-natured battle between those on here who are GW panelists (many) and those who are Golf Digest (fewer, including me).

tlavin

Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2009, 02:17:45 PM »
I'd like to see upward mobility for Kingsley. It is a better course than whistling straits or bandon dunes in my opinion.

All I can say is, "WOW".

I'm going to make it to Kingsley this summer.  It looks awesome, but "better than Bandon Dunes"?  WOW.

Jim Colton

Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2009, 02:21:30 PM »
Erin Hills is #5...on the list of public courses in Wisconsin.

Tim Bert

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2009, 02:23:33 PM »
Just one man's opinion Terry!

The greens are the big difference maker in my opinion.

Matt_Ward

Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2009, 02:29:47 PM »
Candidly, Bandon Dunes is NOT a better course than Kingsley, in my mind. I don't doubt the qualities of BD but it's not a top ten layout from the ones I have played in the States.

Not even close -- Bandon benefits from all the exposure. I can only hope that the DeVries layout at Greywalls at Marquette GC gets serious consideration for a top 100 placement.

One other comment -- Shadow Creek top ten !

Surely they jest.

Kyle Henderson

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2009, 02:34:34 PM »
New "Best of" List, Rearranging the Deck Chairs on the "Titanic" and Watching Paint Dry.

Compare and Contrast.

"Nothing satisfies you [reporters]... everybody asks for personnel changes, so the White House has personnel changes. And then you write, 'oh, they're just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic .' First of all, that is a terrible metaphor. This administration is not sinking, this administration is soaring! If anything, they are rearranging the deck chairs on the Hindenburg."

-Stephen Colbert
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Tom Huckaby

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2009, 02:36:44 PM »
Not even close -- Bandon benefits from all the exposure

Note this is one man's opinion.  Another (this man's) is that Bandon SUFFERS from being so close to the other greats that it is.  Matt and I have debated this ad nauseam previously.  Just do consider both sides, if you care to.

 ;D

Kyle Henderson

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2009, 02:43:15 PM »
Candidly, Bandon Dunes is NOT a better course than Kingsley, in my mind. I don't doubt the qualities of BD but it's not a top ten layout from the ones I have played in the States.

Not even close -- Bandon benefits from all the exposure. I can only hope that the DeVries layout at Greywalls at Marquette GC gets serious consideration for a top 100 placement.

One other comment -- Shadow Creek top ten !

Surely they jest.


I haven't played nearly so many of the greats as most of you fellas, but I would personally place Ballyneal and Bandon Trails ahead of Bandon Dunes.

IMHO, Ballyneal will always suffer in the rankings because of its unusual and what many might consider excessive green contours, but I prefer a bit of excess to the overly tame surfaces of Bandon Dunes. Likewise, the weak holes on Trails far outshine the weak holes on Dunes.

That being said,  Bandon Dunes does contain a handful of the greatest holes in North America. It deserves to be ranked up there somewhere, certainly top 50 I would think.

"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Matt_Ward

Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2009, 02:49:16 PM »
Huck:

The issue I have with BD is that it's not top ten modern -- don't know if you have played Kingsley but it's chock full of design elements that far surpass the original 18 at BD.

I'm not suggesting BD is not a top 100 modern but it benefits from massive exposure the facility has garnered. Pac Dunes is the real deal there.

Kyle:

I can't speak to what you have played but if you see BD as a top 50 modern then so be it. I see it as being more towards the rear of any top 50 listing then the front.

One other thing -- Ballyneal is indeed a very special place.

Final item - BT is especially weak in the middle third of the layout -- gets a huge amount of brownie points because of the good will generated from the association to Coore & Crenshaw. For my money, Black Mesa is a better overall layout but gets far less attention because of the pedigree of the person who designed it.

Tom Huckaby

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2009, 02:51:26 PM »
Huck:

The issue I have with BD is that it's not top ten modern -- don't know if you have played Kingsley but it's chock full of design elements that far surpass the original 18 at BD.

I'm not suggesting BD is not a top 100 modern but it benefits from massive exposure the facility has garnered. Pac Dunes is the real deal there.


Excellent.  Your opinions about the golf courses are fine.  Your statement that Bandon benefits from the exposure is all I was trying to propose a counterpoint to.


Phil McDade

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2009, 02:55:27 PM »
For my money, Black Mesa is a better overall layout but gets far less attention because of the pedigree of the person who designed it.

OK folks, by my count, it took Ward all of 1 hour and 10 minutes to mention Black Mesa on a "Best of..." thread. Who had 1'10" in the pool? Anyone? Huck, I figured you for 30 minutes, tops, so you lose. Anyone else? 

Tom Huckaby

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2009, 02:56:42 PM »
For my money, Black Mesa is a better overall layout but gets far less attention because of the pedigree of the person who designed it.

OK folks, by my count, it took Ward all of 1 hour and 10 minutes to mention Black Mesa on a "Best of..." thread. Who had 1'10" in the pool? Anyone? Huck, I figured you for 30 minutes, tops, so you lose. Anyone else? 

Dammit.  His staying power screws me this time.  I shall predict more carefully in the future.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2009, 02:58:35 PM »
I was amazed he mentioned BM that soon. So, I didn't win the pool.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jim Colton

Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2009, 03:03:26 PM »
I'm not sure when the current issue normally hits mailboxes and newsstands, or when GW will update the list on its website, but if you're desperate enough you can view the new lists in their entirety by buying the digital version of the current issue (only $1.99) from their website.

Kyle Henderson

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2009, 03:04:24 PM »


Kyle:

I can't speak to what you have played but if you see BD as a top 50 modern then so be it. I see it as being more towards the rear of any top 50 listing then the front.

One other thing -- Ballyneal is indeed a very special place.

Final item - BT is especially weak in the middle third of the layout -- gets a huge amount of brownie points because of the good will generated from the association to Coore & Crenshaw. For my money, Black Mesa is a better overall layout but gets far less attention because of the pedigree of the person who designed it.


Black Mesa is very good. From tee to green it may be a better course than Bandon Trails in an 18-hole "matchplay."

However,  I think the hazards and recovery shots, particulalry  around the greens are more compelling at BT. BT also gets brownie points for being relatively walkable.

I'd certainly give you Black Mesa over Spyglass.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Matt_Ward

Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2009, 03:11:52 PM »
Kyle:

I hear what you say -- but I'll rate ANY aspect of BM over BD. You can start with a straight match play comparison -- I'll be glad to break it down by hole groups (e.g. par-3's, par-4's, par-5's) or how the holes fall out when playing them in terms the overall flow/character of the land.

BM is quite  walkable.

One final item -- the hazards and green complexes are also more intricate and far more stress producing for the shots you need to have within your portfolio.

You also dodged my point on BT - the middle stretch of holes is the real weak point of the course. Once you leave the short par-3 on the front until you get to the approach at the 13th the caliber of holes in that run is a good few steps behind the opening and closing ones, in my opinion.




Phil:

If you've played Black Mesa and see Bandon Dunes as the better of the two courses I'd like to hear your reasoning.

Let me point out I often mention courses that don't benefit from having "star" power architects attached to them. Kingsley is a truly marvelous course and yet gets pushed more towards the rear than the front of the line. Ditto what Mike DeVries did with Greywalls at Marquette GC. The work Ken Kavanaugh did at Vista Verde is another example of a quality design. I also think Dennis Rider deserves credit for the sheer imagination he attained at Wolf Creek in Mesquite, NV.

Tom Huckaby

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2009, 03:15:25 PM »
Matt - so you are saying the GW panelists are architect-starstruck?

The horror!

And aren't you one of them?  If so, set your brethren straight!

 ;D

Garland Bayley

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2009, 03:15:58 PM »
...
BM is quite  walkable.
...

What? Compared to what real estate development course?

Admit it Matt. You take a cart so you can do 36 holes days there.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jerry Kluger

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Re: Golfweek's 2009 Best Of Lists
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2009, 03:31:18 PM »
I have not played the Pete Dye Club - is it really that good to be near the very top?

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