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David Stamm

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2009, 12:44:52 AM »
I have to apologize to all. I've been trying to get the sacn of the plan up, but alas it;s on my other hard drive that has crashed and I'm in the midst of trying to retrieve it. As soon as I can get it, and no one else has posted it, I'll repost it on this thead.



David E., great stuff! That info of the Dr.'s other work while in So America is wonderful! One would have to deduce that there was more that he was doing while down there than orignally thought considering how long he spent there.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Neil_Crafter

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2009, 06:20:55 AM »
David E.
Many thanks for this and the detail you posted about El Nautico San Isidro. Absolutely fascinating and it never ceases to amaze me how information about previously unknown involvements of Mackenzie can still be found today. Is this the course that today is called San Isidro Golf Club?

We have confirmed dates for Mackenzie's departure from NYC to BA (January 24th 1930) as the New York Times reported on this the next day - no name of the ship was given, although it should not be too hard to find out the ship(s) that left NYC that day for BA. The date of his arrival is not known but I believe the trip was around 2 weeks. From what I've been told there are no immigration records surviving from this time - can you confirm this from your contacts?

You indicated Mackenzie was in South America until middle of May, but the evidence we have found - scanned UK immigration records - clearly show Mackenzie arrived back in Southampton, England on the 'SS Alcantara' (from Buenos Aires) on 27th April 1930. As this trip took around 18 or 19 sailing days, his date of departure would have been around the 8th or 9th April. If you let me know your email address I can send you the scan of the entry record if you like.

I am wondering what info you have to suggest Mac was still in SA in the middle of May? I know the Club de Golf Uruguay plan is dated May 1930 but this could simply be explained that Mac did not draw the plan until he returned to the UK and then sent it on to the client after he drew it in May 1930. Mac also married Hilda Sykes in London on May 9th 1930 so he could not have been in SA at the same time I think - not even Mac was that clever!

So a tentative range of Mackenzie's time in South America would be from around 10th February to 8th April, pretty close to 2 months and only a little less than the time Mac spent in Australia (not counting New Zealand).

In The Spirit of St Andrews, Mackenzie simply states that "Mar del Plata is an excellent seaside course" but does not elaborate as to whether he did any work there or not. So your information is very welcome.

Fantastic info about the El Nautico find in that old golf magazine, again confirming that these periodicals are wonderful sources of information about lost and previously unknown courses - would love to see the article. And the amazing range of hole types included is also fascinating.
cheers Neil



Neil_Crafter

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2009, 06:28:29 AM »
David S
Here's the El Boqueron plan - hope I haven't infringed any copyrights by posting it but I believe it has been posted before. Hope you get the HD sorted. :'(



David Edel

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2009, 02:06:36 PM »
Neil,

Great research.  I would love anything you can send for us to display at the club.  My timelines are merely based on subjective evidence, not of your detailed work.  I new that he arrived in January, but what day?  I know that he was at El Boqueron on March 4, 1930 as my guest register shows his signature with a date.  I know El Nuatico is dated May 1930, aslo Club de Golf  Uruguay is dated May 1930.  I merely expected that he drew the plans in Argentina, but from your research I was wrong.
Much in Argentina is the result of Luther Koontz, who at the time worked for the Wendell Miller group.  Koontz as explained in an article in Golfer Argentino graduated from Ohio State Uninversity, worked for Colt & Allsion, and also Donald Ross.  He is a very well respected architect in South America having 27 or so courses attributed to him.  He is listed as the superintendent at the Argentino in Palermo during the 40's.  Koontz redesigned Olivos in the early 30's, it was later taken and relocated to the current sight, were he designed the 27 hole layout.  He also redesigned several greens at San Andres Golf Club and San Isidro Golf Club.  His vocational background is in irrigation and drainage, but I would guess that his associations gave him great insight in the minds of experts.  In Argentina he found his niche and stayed.  Not much is known about him, but with your skills you should have no problem. 

El Nautico San Isidro and San Isidro Golf CLub are two different clubs.  El Nautico at this time was one of the most prominant clubs in Argentina.  It was and is primarily a sailing club.  For this reason the land did not exist for the golf portion of the club.  The land was being reclaimed in stages.  When Mackenzie showed up there was a boot shaped piece large enough for a small 9 hole routing.  San Isidro Golf CLub is close by and inland from the Jockey by about 1/4 mile.

My guess is that when he arrived, all the clubs wanted some insight from him.  For this reason there is a lot of redesigning of greens and bunkering during the early 30's.  The Golfer Argentino was a fortunate find and a tremedous resource into the world of early Argentine Golf. 

I have heard rumblings about a some connection to Mackenzie at the former club Parque Camet in Mar Del Plata.  It was acquired by state and turned into a community park, but at one time it had a golf club.

All of the Jockey Clubs records from that era were burnt in the fire when the Peronistas did their bonfire.  The only plan that exists is the irrigation plan from the Wendell Millar group, which hangs in the club.

Interesting connections between Koontz and Ohio State.  Maybe Koontz got Mackenzie the job,or Mackenzie found Koontz via Ohio State?   

Keep put the good work.  I plan a trip to Argentina in the next few months, so hopefully I can go to the newspapers and look for information about his movements.  I am disappointed that his timeline has him for only a few months, as there could be more material to be found.  My guess is the language barrier slowed things down, and communication was difficult for him.  Also, that period is the summer there, and everything shuts down for vacations. 

A note:  the plans on the this site are for personal use only.  It was my belief that showing the plans would give us all great insight into his mind set at the time.  El Boqueron was probably something that was floating around in his mind and he found the right scenario to place it.   Many asked whether is was prudent to show the plans in their entirety, but that would be selfish.  I would hope all would respect their circulation.  The version in the T&L had a seem down the middle and I knew that would be the case. 

Good work Neil,

David

David Edel

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2009, 02:31:04 PM »
Mike,

The course will be located northwest of Austin in a town called Liberty Hill.  It is roughly 30 minutes from downtown Austin.  Snakes taste like chicken, so we will have Snake Asados, centipedes not sure what to do with them, but I hear chocolate covered scorpions are pretty good.  Saw a Gary Zimerman  on the Travel Channel eat some dillos.  We have them too. 

I am moving to the property in the next couple weeks, so coming from the coast of Oregon to Texas will have some getting used to new critters.  Nothing like having a BBQ in Oregon and looking over your shoulder and seeing a bear.

Anytime your in the area, I would love to show you the sight.

David

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2009, 06:10:27 PM »
If I'm right I think Mike Nuzzo did something similar on his 9 hole private course in Texas.

Small correction: on all 18 holes.

Congratulations Mike, Joe & David.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2009, 03:15:51 AM »
If I'm right I think Mike Nuzzo did something similar on his 9 hole private course in Texas.

Small correction: on all 18 holes.

Congratulations Mike, Joe & David.

Oops! Sorry about that Mike!

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2009, 04:35:45 PM »
A question for Mike DeVries

Mike, as the El Boqueron plan has no scale, I was wondering how you have gone about trying to determine or estimate the length of holes Mackenzie had planned? As the green complexes appear large, as a result the holes look on the short side as a result. Have you a length target in mind for your course and how does this differ from what Mac intended? Thanks.

And one for David Edel

David, I have put up a separate thread on Mackenzie in South America and would be interested to see you post any comments you might have.

cheers Neil

Jay Kirkpatrick

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2009, 04:59:47 PM »
I second Neil's question.  From the plan, I couldn't tell the number of par 5s vs. par 4s.  Any additional details would be welcome.

Peter Pallotta

Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2009, 05:19:57 PM »
Mike - I had the same question Neil and Jay have, but was afraid to ask because I thought it was just me, missing something.  Also, on another thread TE references the talks Behr and MacKenzie were having around this time about designing with little or no rough, and the use of melded fairways - what do you envision re fairway widths here?
Thanks
Peter

TEPaul

Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2009, 07:23:35 PM »
DavidE:

I was in the midst of reading the article and how you came by all this. Fascinating stuff. I'll finish it off shortly and then I guess I'll have a few questions or remarks about estate courses and Macdonald's take on them perhaps vs MacKenzie's (or Flynn's). An interesting genre in the evolution of golf course architecture, to say the least.

David Edel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2009, 06:46:40 PM »
TEPaul,

I had known about the plans for a long time, maybe 12 years.  With three generations heralding from the Monterey Pennisula, my affection for Mackenzie courses that I was able to play drew me to all this.  My father caddied at Cypress Point as a junior.  Whe I first arrived in Argentina to teach golf, I had no idea that he was there.  My friend, Enrique Hernandez talked of the Jockey Club, were he is a member, being one of the most prestigeous courses in South America.  Later I found out it was a Mackenzie, so I had to play it as soon as possible.

Later, at the 19th we would talk architecture, and the topic would come up once in a while about Jaime Zuberbuhler's estate course.  No boby seemed to give it much thought that an individual had a routing by Mackenzie.   When I heard that it was never executed as it was intended, and later fell to the plow, my mind started to ask questions.
 
I was older, so was Jaime, and any visions of him doing it in Argentina was not on the front burner.  So, Enrique and I approached him with a win win proposition, and he graciously accepted.  All in all the process smoldered for around 12 years.

I would like to hear your thoughts on any matter pretaining to Mackenzie and estate courses.

I have received numerous emails from many members providing valueable information, I really appreciate the knowledge.

Best to all,

David

Brent Hutto

Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2009, 07:39:38 PM »
This thread is what the forum is all about, IMO. Thanks so much to all who are contributing. I also pass along thanks from a buddy of mine who is not a GCA member but who is keenly following this discussion as a "lurker".

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2009, 08:33:35 PM »
I second Neil's question.  From the plan, I couldn't tell the number of par 5s vs. par 4s.  Any additional details would be welcome.

I was looking at relative lengths of the holes and thinking maybe it's a par 70 with three par 5s and five par 3s.  35-35--70.

Par 5s - #2, #9, #17

Par 3s - #4, #5 (!!), #7, #12, #14

Par 4s - everything else, with #15 a shortish par 4.

There aren't many bunkers but the ones that are there are in very interesting locations.  ;D


JMorgan

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2009, 08:55:55 PM »

Joe, you can tell Mike I'll gladly move to Austin for the summer...



Joe Hancock

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2009, 09:40:36 PM »
Nothing etched in stone:

Hole       Par       Yards              Hole    Par     Yards


#1           4          415                #10      4       440
#2           4          455                #11      5       500
#3           3          230                #12      4       367
#4           3          175                #13      3       225
#5           4          315                #14      4       377
#6           3          190                #15      3       200
#7           4          470                #16      4       377
#8           5          515                #17      4       453
#9           5          510                #18      4       473


Out        35        3275                In        35      3412


         Par 70                        6687 Yards



JMorgan,

Are you a trained chef?

 ;D
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2009, 09:53:33 PM »
Nothing etched in stone:

Hole       Par       Yards              Hole    Par     Yards


#1           4          415                #10      4       440
#2           4          455                #11      5       500
#3           3          230                #12      4       367
#4           3          175                #13      3       225
#5           4          315                #14      4       377
#6           3          190                #15      3       200
#7           4          470                #16      4       377
#8           5          515                #17      4       453
#9           5          510                #18      4       473


Out        35        3275                In        35      3412


         Par 70                        6687 Yards



JMorgan,

Are you a trained chef?

 ;D

Just curious, Joe, how do you get #14 twice as long as #15 (the dogleg par 3?)?

OR.....are those yardages what's actually going to happen in Texas based on what's there in the terrain? 
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 09:56:09 PM by Bill_McBride »

David Edel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2009, 09:55:13 PM »
Youallzzzz,


Jaime Zuberbuhler was lucky to find a score card for the 9 hole routing which is what gave Mike some scale to the holes.  The course will be spread out only to reflect current issues with yardages and safety.   The plan which might placed on to the Texas sight is fantastic, and we moved several greens as a result of increasing the perimeter holes, which gave us room to spread the center out a little more for better tee placements, etc.  

The old card reads

1. 460 par 4
2. 473 par 5
3. 350 par 4
4. 291 par 4
5. 162 par 3
6. 390 par 4
7. 290 par 4
8. 441 par 4
9. 411 par 4

Total 3328

Remember this is for the front nine only on the original routing as Dentone laid it out in 1930.

Mike has the course at 6687 at a par 70.  We changed the hole numbers by one to accomodate a better clubhouse placement that flows better with the property.  Another nice feature is that the wind patterns resemble the original property as best as can tell.  THe Texas routing will have 5 par 3's and 3 par 5's.  The shortest par 3 is 175, 190, 200, and two at 230.  

I will let Mike handle all of the commentary on his routing to property.  


Best,

David

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2009, 09:57:47 PM »
Baked beans and ribs.  And road trips to San Antone. 


Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2009, 09:59:39 PM »
Baked beans and ribs.  And road trips to San Antone. 



Don't forget the Gruene Hall in north New Braunfels on the way to San Antone from Austin.

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2009, 10:06:28 PM »
No kidding, I ran into Mario Batali on 41st St. today.  Maybe I can get him to deliver?

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #46 on: March 10, 2009, 10:13:50 PM »
Joe H and David E,

By virtue of the effects of modern ball and equipment technology, won't the TX course play significantly different (shorter) given that it is of similar length (at least one nine) as the Argentinian plans of 1930?

How similar are the Austin site's climate, soil conditions and wind patterns to the original?  Are the predominant winds in Argentina from the southwest?

Here is hoping that everything is falling into place for this project to go forward.  

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #47 on: March 10, 2009, 10:25:07 PM »
Baked beans and ribs.  And road trips to San Antone. 



Don't forget the Gruene Hall in north New Braunfels on the way to San Antone from Austin.

Joe, seems like maybe you should ask Bill to come along, too.   ;D

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #48 on: March 10, 2009, 10:28:33 PM »
Lou,

Good questions.

David would be best to answer site similarities, although Mike knows a lot about the topography of  both sites, and the similarities they share as well.

Mike would be best to answer the technology/ equipment questions. He described in a post or two already how he moved a couple green complexes due to waterway issues, and in both circumstances it resulted in additional yardage. My take on it is the greens will really define what the golf course is all about, and to go on a hunt for additional yardage may take away from that focus.

Mike is on the road, so I'm sure he'll get caught up with posts here when he gets back to the office.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #49 on: March 10, 2009, 10:29:31 PM »
Baked beans and ribs.  And road trips to San Antone. 



Don't forget the Gruene Hall in north New Braunfels on the way to San Antone from Austin.

Joe, seems like maybe you should ask Bill to come along, too.   ;D

We're people people....the more, the merrier!

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

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