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Thomas Dai

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #125 on: January 11, 2020, 03:58:40 PM »
Wondering whatever happened to this fascinating project in Texas?

Also wondering what the photo of the 2nd hole at the E-B Arg estate course, the Dentone course, that Alfonso mentions looks like. Anyone able to post a copy or provide a link?


atb


PS - Interesting that MacKenzie's routing sketch for the 9-green El Boqueron course in Argentina looks like it's playable in reverse to make 18.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2020, 04:02:24 PM by Thomas Dai »

Lou_Duran

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #126 on: January 13, 2020, 03:07:00 PM »
I had a long telephone conversation with David Edel many years ago about this unique project.  With Mike Devries on board, it had a lot of potential, though as soon as David revealed the cost of the land, I knew it was a very long shot.


As far as I know, the option to develop the concept has long expired.  But even if the rights reverted to the Argentinian owner, I don't know how he could protect the drawing from someone adapting something similar to a site.  (The litigation involving Tour 18 might have some relevance, but I don't know what MacKenzie holes are unique and specific enough to claim trade dress).  As I recall, Mike's plans varied from the drawing, sometimes considerably, and in flow and order of the holes.


This project might work with a client like the one Mike Nuzzo and Don Mahaffey built Wolf Point for.  But as a commercial venture close to a large population center, I wouldn't hold my breath.

MClutterbuck

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #127 on: January 13, 2020, 04:22:59 PM »

Also wondering what the photo of the 2nd hole at the E-B Arg estate course, the Dentone course, that Alfonso mentions looks like. Anyone able to post a copy or provide a link?




What course are you referring to? The famous Dentone course is Mar del Plata Golf Course, a links.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 04:30:50 PM by MClutterbuck »

Peter Flory

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #128 on: January 13, 2020, 04:28:29 PM »
Were they in possession or more detailed plans or is that drawing it? 


And does anyone know the exact plot of land the the plans were made for in S.A.?  I'm just curious if it is potentially able to be rendered digitally to bring some life to it if real life projects are unlikely to happen. 

MClutterbuck

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #129 on: January 13, 2020, 04:45:37 PM »
Were they in possession or more detailed plans or is that drawing it? 


And does anyone know the exact plot of land the the plans were made for in S.A.?  I'm just curious if it is potentially able to be rendered digitally to bring some life to it if real life projects are unlikely to happen.


Peter,


If in fact El Boqueron was drawn for a private estate or rather ranch (Estancia translates to ranch) in Buenos Aires, i can walk you through the topo... grab a white blank A4 sheet and you have it. No elevation change whatsoever. All black topsoil.

Thomas Dai

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #130 on: January 13, 2020, 05:07:37 PM »

Also wondering what the photo of the 2nd hole at the E-B Arg estate course, the Dentone course, that Alfonso mentions looks like. Anyone able to post a copy or provide a link?

What course are you referring to? The famous Dentone course is Mar del Plata Golf Course, a links.

MC,

Iíve read somewhere that there was a course at the El-B estancia prior to Mackenzie's visit and that it was laid out by Dentone and maybe later revised by him. Presumably as MacKenzieís plan was never implemented it is this original El-B course that is the one pictured in the 1940 2nd green photo that Alfonso mentions in Reply 4 above.

Thereís quite a bit of information in this piece although much is repeated in various replies above - https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57feba89197aea1c0b978f32/t/58755241d2b857aea5260f35/1484083781565/TL_article_Lost_MacKenzie_Nov-Dec2009.pdf


Iíve tried via Satmaps, without success, to determine the exact location of the original El-B course and the original estancia golf Clubhouse. Iíve read that the original Clubhouse is now used to provide accommodation for the horse enthusiasts and polo playing holiday makers who these days visit the estancia.

Hereís El-Bís general location - https://www.google.com/maps/@-38.0261009,-57.8009393,15z/data=!3m1!1e3

Atb

« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 05:42:03 PM by Thomas Dai »

MClutterbuck

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #131 on: January 13, 2020, 05:43:44 PM »
Sorry, I misunderstood.


If I recall correctly Estancia El Boqueron was a private ranch, i doubt any club house existed. More likely just a large ranch house as was and is typical of the Argentine Pampas. The golf courses in these ranches were sometimes built in the gardens of the Estancia. A photo follows of El Boqueron.

« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 06:12:16 PM by MClutterbuck »

MClutterbuck

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #132 on: January 13, 2020, 05:54:31 PM »
This is the land today. The article states the 9 hole golf course was designed by Makenzie was in the middle of the gardens next to the house. But the source does not seem reliable. For example I see discrepancies on who designed and built the gardens. I thought and have read it was the famous Carlos Thays and this article refers to Hermann Botrich. So 2 different landscape planners and 2 different golf designers are credited to this land.


« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 06:04:56 PM by MClutterbuck »

Mike_DeVries

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #133 on: January 14, 2020, 05:45:16 PM »
This is the land today. The article states the 9 hole golf course was designed by Makenzie was in the middle of the gardens next to the house. But the source does not seem reliable. For example I see discrepancies on who designed and built the gardens. I thought and have read it was the famous Carlos Thays and this article refers to Hermann Botrich. So 2 different landscape planners and 2 different golf designers are credited to this land.





That is the original manor house to El Boqueron.  The golf course was not next to that structure but nearby on the estancia (very large - 1000's of acres) and there was a small cottage that was used as the "clubhouse" - think of it as a 2-3 bedroom cottage with a covered front porch.


MacKenzie designed the course on the land there, a hillside that went down to a crease in the land and then back up, with long distance views of hills.  The site was NOT flat pampas ground.  Dentone came in afterwards and built nine holes in the same area, but it wasn't MacKenzie's routing or course.  That nine holes was played by Argentine pros and others when in the area - Henry Cotton, Roberto deVicenzo, and others - Roberto used to say it was difficult . . . maybe Dentone wanted his fellow pros to hurt a little?  But it was mainly used by the Anchorena family and friends when they were on the estate and the course was maintained for 20-30 years.  Today the cottage is still there and in good condition, the landscape has field grasses, some row crops, and patches of curros still on site (these are a nasty, spiny plant that you could liken to gorse, only more like razor wire, with like blady spines on the branches).


It is a very cool place.

Mike_DeVries

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #134 on: January 14, 2020, 05:49:14 PM »
This is the land today. The article states the 9 hole golf course was designed by Makenzie was in the middle of the gardens next to the house. But the source does not seem reliable. For example I see discrepancies on who designed and built the gardens. I thought and have read it was the famous Carlos Thays and this article refers to Hermann Botrich. So 2 different landscape planners and 2 different golf designers are credited to this land.





MC,


Could i get a copy of the article? Looks very cool.  Message me or whatever is easiest.


Thanks!
Mike


MClutterbuck

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #135 on: January 14, 2020, 06:41:58 PM »
Mike,


You are right that this is not flatland. This land is somewhat apart from where the google map coordinates point and it is next to Sierra de los Padres, a small mountain/hill range close to Mar del Plata.


I will search for the article again and send it to you, but it is mostly gossip and the reference to Mackenzie is wrong. This is like an Hola Magazine from Spain.


Marcos


Thomas Dai

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #136 on: January 15, 2020, 04:48:05 AM »
MC,
There is a photo of the 'clubhouse' in the Tom Dunne article I linked above -- [/size]https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57feba89197aea1c0b978f32/t/58755241d2b857aea5260f35/1484083781565/TL_article_Lost_MacKenzie_Nov-Dec2009.pdf[/font][/size]


There are some also articles on the web about the horse and polo facility that is now on the site.


Here are the references. The articles are essentially touristy type pieces, more about horses and polo, but they do include some golf references -
https://www.ft.com/content/eef30598-52ac-11e8-84f4-43d65af59d43
and
https://www.plansouthamerica.com/estancia-el-boqueron-argentina/


Mike, do you have a copy of Alfonso's 1940 2nd green photo?


atb




Mike_DeVries

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #137 on: January 15, 2020, 10:25:10 AM »
MC,
There is a photo of the 'clubhouse' in the Tom Dunne article I linked above -- https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57feba89197aea1c0b978f32/t/58755241d2b857aea5260f35/1484083781565/TL_article_Lost_MacKenzie_Nov-Dec2009.pdf


Mike, do you have a copy of Alfonso's 1940 2nd green photo?

No, I don't have the photo.


Yes, that is the "clubhouse" in Tom Dunne's article.

Mike_DeVries

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #138 on: January 15, 2020, 10:29:27 AM »
This is the land today. The article states the 9 hole golf course was designed by Makenzie was in the middle of the gardens next to the house. But the source does not seem reliable. For example I see discrepancies on who designed and built the gardens. I thought and have read it was the famous Carlos Thays and this article refers to Hermann Botrich. So 2 different landscape planners and 2 different golf designers are credited to this land.



I think Pinky must be Jaime's daughter.  Jaime has the original MacKenzie plan and is the one who has an agreement with David Edel for it.  Jaime is a very nice man - a pure gentleman, very gracious, and humble.  I was fortunate to visit El Boqueron with him and experience a real Argentine asado there.

MClutterbuck

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #139 on: January 15, 2020, 12:26:53 PM »
MC,
There is a photo of the 'clubhouse' in the Tom Dunne article I linked above -- https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57feba89197aea1c0b978f32/t/58755241d2b857aea5260f35/1484083781565/TL_article_Lost_MacKenzie_Nov-Dec2009.pdf


There are some also articles on the web about the horse and polo facility that is now on the site.


Here are the references. The articles are essentially touristy type pieces, more about horses and polo, but they do include some golf references -
https://www.ft.com/content/eef30598-52ac-11e8-84f4-43d65af59d43
and
https://www.plansouthamerica.com/estancia-el-boqueron-argentina/


Mike, do you have a copy of Alfonso's 1940 2nd green photo?


atb


Comparing your last link to the article I am linking below, you get the impression that the name El Boqueron stayed with a different part of the property than the one that contained the golf course. This other article explains the property got divided in several parts, and the original gardens and golf course are part of an Estancia called La Ferme, I believe. And the owners of both properties are different.


https://studylib.es/doc/6902663/el-boqueron-pinky-zuberbuhler-y-pedro-hunter


MC

Thomas Dai

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #140 on: January 15, 2020, 02:44:35 PM »
Thanks MC and MdV.
MC see my PM.
Atb


Later edit - here is a link that if you click on it and scroll down quite a ways has a map of the location of the El-B estate - http://fotosviejasdemardelplata.blogspot.com/2013/09/estancia-el-boqueron.html - the piece is in Spanish but seems to contain quote a few references to golf.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 04:01:50 AM by Thomas Dai »

Peter Flory

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #141 on: January 15, 2020, 07:28:25 PM »
Edited- I just answered a few of my questions with a re-read of that article.


Can someone point me to the coordinates of that remaining clubhouse that they show?  If that is the one in the plan, then it might be possible to figure out the scale of the drawing and place it over the land digitally. 
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 07:47:42 PM by Peter Flory »

Peter Flory

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #142 on: January 16, 2020, 09:15:45 PM »
Here is a preliminary theory for the course footprint.  I could be way off base, but I'll explain my rationale and see if anyone can support it or poke holes in it. 

I couldn't find any buildings on the estate that looked like the clubhouse until I wound back the clock to prior years and saw a building in the trees that looks like the one in the articles where the plans hung above the mantle (the trees were thinner and/or light was different in some aerials).  It has a little blue 1 next to it below.  If this is right, then the picture of the house was from the entrance and the course would have been on the other side of it. 

To get the scale right, I looked for other clues.  The gorse patch that has a very flat topside (I have a blue #2 next to it) seemed like it signified some sort of boundary.  There is a road/ driveway that seems to correspond with it and I lined up the image so that the gorse border is exactly along this road.  The last datapoint that I used to get the possible scale was the way that the 17th hole doglegs.  Notice how there is a field there and it looks like the El Boqueron property ends.  I guess that this is the reason for the dogleg and I stretched the image so that it avoided the neighbor's property, but still gave the hole a reasonable amount of width. 



No idea if this is right, but when I fly around the course and look at the elevations and the way that the holes bend, it all seems to make sense.  i.e. there is nothing too awkward.  The short 15th is a par 4 that plays steeply uphill for instance, which would explain it's length. 

But I think this theory contradicts the existing one that the property was all on a big downslope away from the clubhouse.  In this version, the clubhouse is one of the lowest points. 

Here is a zoomed in view of the building that I think looks like the clubhouse:  The roof, the chimney, and the color are what led me to believe that this might be it.  This building measures about 45 feet across, which seems like the right scale. 



« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 10:39:03 PM by Peter Flory »

Peter Flory

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #143 on: January 16, 2020, 11:42:24 PM »
With the placement of the routing that I posted above, here would be the yardages.  I measured the longer route if he had 2 routes on the drawing. 

1) 315.  -38 ft
2) 383  -15
3) 340  -3
4) 219  -43
5) 157  -12
6) 318 +3
7) 164  +5
8. 387  +27
9) 436  -89

10) 391  +78  (notice how far this tee is from the 9th green.  It's 94 yards away, but it cuts off 26 extra feet of climb.  Most of the tees look like they seek high ground under this theory) 
11) 366  -26
12) 167  -22
13) 371  -15
14) 177  -4
15) 253  +56
16) 272  -86
17) 427  -8
18) 342  +24

TOTAL: 5,094 yards.  -168 feet elevation change (because of the location of the tees).  5 par 3s.  Par 67 if no par 5s.  8, 9, and 17 look like they could play like par 5s.  If that were the case, par 70. 

Jeff Schley

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #144 on: January 17, 2020, 06:17:02 AM »
Peter nice work.  BTW how is the Lido virtual build coming?
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Mike_DeVries

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #145 on: January 17, 2020, 11:29:28 AM »
Here is a preliminary theory for the course footprint.  I could be way off base, but I'll explain my rationale and see if anyone can support it or poke holes in it. 

I couldn't find any buildings on the estate that looked like the clubhouse until I wound back the clock to prior years and saw a building in the trees that looks like the one in the articles where the plans hung above the mantle (the trees were thinner and/or light was different in some aerials).  It has a little blue 1 next to it below.  If this is right, then the picture of the house was from the entrance and the course would have been on the other side of it. 

To get the scale right, I looked for other clues.  The gorse patch that has a very flat topside (I have a blue #2 next to it) seemed like it signified some sort of boundary.  There is a road/ driveway that seems to correspond with it and I lined up the image so that the gorse border is exactly along this road.  The last datapoint that I used to get the possible scale was the way that the 17th hole doglegs.  Notice how there is a field there and it looks like the El Boqueron property ends.  I guess that this is the reason for the dogleg and I stretched the image so that it avoided the neighbor's property, but still gave the hole a reasonable amount of width. 



No idea if this is right, but when I fly around the course and look at the elevations and the way that the holes bend, it all seems to make sense.  i.e. there is nothing too awkward.  The short 15th is a par 4 that plays steeply uphill for instance, which would explain it's length. 

But I think this theory contradicts the existing one that the property was all on a big downslope away from the clubhouse.  In this version, the clubhouse is one of the lowest points. 

Here is a zoomed in view of the building that I think looks like the clubhouse:  The roof, the chimney, and the color are what led me to believe that this might be it.  This building measures about 45 feet across, which seems like the right scale. 



Peter,


The golf course didn't come close to the big manor house nor have a view of it.  I am not sure if you have the correct building - it might actually be the one closer to the edge of the clearing, just south of the riding/cattle ring.  And if that is the correct building, the golf course would go to the west from there, as there is still considerable open fields of grass and probably soybeans, as well as some pockets of curros, but nearly as much as would have been there 80+ years ago.   


The key is the house and it is hard to tell from GE.


Cheers,
Mike


Peter Flory

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #146 on: January 17, 2020, 02:08:54 PM »
Peter nice work.  BTW how is the Lido virtual build coming?

I'm recalculating based on Mike's comments.  Have some other theories.

Re: Lido- it is coming along.  I basically have 3 holes remaining to do (11, 15, and 50% on 12 and 13).  The end is in sight.  Just have been really busy with other things over the last year. 
« Last Edit: January 18, 2020, 12:07:04 AM by Peter Flory »

Peter Flory

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #147 on: January 17, 2020, 02:59:02 PM »
Hopefully I'm not clogging up this thread with wild (and incorrect) theories, but here is another one that I'm talking myself into.



Reasons why I like this one:
- It fits nicely in the boundaries of a field/ pasture that isn't forested.
- The building that could have been the planned clubhouse fits perfectly in the rectangle that Mackenzie drew... however, it looks like that is only because they expanded that building in 2011.  Before that, it only took up half of the rectangle... because it might have been the house in those articles.  I'll put a picture of it below. 
- It looks like there is also a structure in the exact spot where there was the mystery building on the routing (blue square in the middle of the pic), although it is obscured.  There are smaller structures visible around it in certain aerials. 
- The drawing seems square to the bottom property line and the boundaries of the field- so it is a logical orientation to draw it.
- The 9th hole dogs nicely with the edge of the plot
- The 9th hole and especially the 10th hole are arranged so that tee shots would carry the road.  The 10th tee is really quite a ways from the 9th green, so maybe that is the reason?  Also, 1 and 18 both easily carry the road.  I am surmising that the road was there when Mackenzie drew the plans because of that internal building.  So, not only does this footprint have the internal structure and forest around it, but the access roads to it avoid greens and tees nicely. 
- the doglegs seem more naturally tilted in this solution than the last one that I posted.  9 has a gentle bank to it for instance. 

With this footprint, the 18th hole is 330 yards and the 9th is about 400 yards. 

Here is a more zoomed out image to give orientation:


Original building that was in the location site for this theory.  At or around 2011, it looks like they significantly added on to this structure.  In that case, the original portion is still there, just a part of a bigger building. 

Notice the dormer on the roof.  I think that matches the photo of the clubhouse where the plans were stored.  There is a nice yard there and room for the photographer to stand to take the pic from the top of this photo back toward the house. 
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 03:58:29 PM by Peter Flory »

Thomas Dai

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #148 on: January 17, 2020, 03:44:01 PM »
I reckon youíre probably on to something with your second version Peter.
In the Tom Dunne article there is reference to the 14th hole playing into a quartering left-to-right wind. From some web checking it seems that the prevailing wind is NNE. If you orientate your overlaid MacKí plan to the standard N-S-E-W points of the compass then the 14th appears angled to play as described by Tom Dunne (and David Edel).
Also, there are some thin straight lines on Mackís plan that donít correspond to his holes but they seem to closely resemble markings that are visible on the ground/googleearth.
Well done.
Atb
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 04:03:38 PM by Thomas Dai »

Peter Flory

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Re: El Boqueron Update
« Reply #149 on: January 17, 2020, 04:10:47 PM »
Yeah, the more that I look at this building, the more I think that it is the clubhouse. 

2011 version of the house
Dormer, concrete railings in front, etc. 


Image from 2017- well after the additions were put on


Check out how the bushes and the brick/ concrete railings match.  I think the above also has shadows where the benches are.  On the above, you can also see a shadow where the chimney is. 


I think that we got it.  Google Earth archaeology...
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 04:17:24 PM by Peter Flory »

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