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Mike Sweeney

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The Signature Era Part II - Tiger Woods
« on: April 22, 2017, 07:34:26 AM »
Woods was in Missouri on Tuesday to announce plans to design a public golf course at Big Cedar Lodge, and he even tried hitting a few shots to a par-3.

Woods has started only 19 events worldwide since that first back surgery.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/20/sports/tiger-woods-has-a-fourth-back-operation.html?ribbon-ad-idx=4&rref=sports/golf&module=Ribbon&version=origin&region=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Golf&pgtype=article

So with a fourth back surgery in the books, it is pretty hard to see a path to competitive golf for Tiger. He has always been a worker and it seems that the "Signature Era" of Freddy Couples showing up at opening day as the architect of record was put to bed.

With an improving economy but stagnant growth for golf, where does Tiger fit in to golf course architecture? Will his back surgeries make him a better architect than Jack, as Tiger is no longer thinking about outdriving Dustin Johnson on a hole? Jack's golf ego seemed to be a force on his early designs.

Finally, is there an economic model to pay/use Tiger Woods as an architect?

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Signature Era Part II - Tiger Woods
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2017, 07:48:37 AM »
Finally, is there an economic model to pay/use Tiger Woods as an architect?


I hope not!!

Randy Thompson

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Re: The Signature Era Part II - Tiger Woods
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2017, 07:06:48 PM »
Has his fee`s come down from 25 million he signed for in the middle east? I understand he has an X Fazio design associate, can they put together teams as strong as Tom, Bill and Gill? Bill and Gill, I like that! Will they be able to do anything decent for under 10 million? You tell me, do you see a big future for 10 plus million golf courses in the enar future?

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Signature Era Part II - Tiger Woods
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2017, 08:30:01 PM »
I've wondered in the past if anyone ever actually bought a second home on a golf course *because* the course was by Jack Nicklaus,  or if many people splurging on a dream vacation in a fancy hotel ever paid the $250 to play the spectacular resort course *specifically* because it was a Nicklaus design? In other words: if the name *just happens* to fit in nicely with the pre-existing wants and tastes and expectations of the wealthy and well to do, or whether the name itself somehow *lends assurance* to those well to do that their expectations will be met. If it's the latter, my guess is that there'll always be a few clients/developers willing to pay TW his rate.

Mike Sweeney

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Re: The Signature Era Part II - Tiger Woods
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2017, 08:32:13 PM »
Has his fee`s come down from 25 million he signed for in the middle east? I understand he has an X Fazio design associate, can they put together teams as strong as Tom, Bill and Gill? Bill and Gill, I like that! Will they be able to do anything decent for under 10 million? You tell me, do you see a big future for 10 plus million golf courses in the enar future?


Here are the courses listed:


http://www.tigerwoods.com/design/courses


Like many things in Dubai, it does not appear that it happened.


That is the question about "Part II". That era (Dubai was signed in 2006) is over. Tiger has come to earth, and the golf economy has come to earth. What now?


There is an argument that Tiger Woods could help you guys (architects) in the same way that he helped PGA purses. RTJ raised the bar for the business of golf course architecture.


If Tom Doak builds a reversible golf course, 1500 people on GCA fall in love. If Tiger Woods builds a Par 56 twelve hole golf course, he changes the game AGAIN.


He has the opportunity to be really productive for the game (rather than business) of golf. I am an optimist by nature :)
« Last Edit: April 23, 2017, 08:34:05 PM by Mike Sweeney »
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Will Spivey

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Re: The Signature Era Part II - Tiger Woods
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2017, 08:38:46 PM »
I've wondered in the past if anyone ever actually bought a second home on a golf course *because* the course was by Jack Nicklaus,  or if many people splurging on a dream vacation in a fancy hotel ever paid the $250 to play the spectacular resort course *specifically* because it was a Nicklaus design? In other words: if the name *just happens* to fit in nicely with the pre-existing wants and tastes and expectations of the wealthy and well to do, or whether the name itself somehow *lends assurance* to those well to do that their expectations will be met. If it's the latter, my guess is that there'll always be a few clients/developers willing to pay TW his rate.


Peter,


I suspect the answer to your question is "yes," but just barely.  However, I think the correct question is "How many people looked at or considered a destination, whether home or resort, because of Nicklaus/Fazio/et al. In the world of marketing never underestimate the power of borrowed interest. Tiger could clearly create interest and inquiry in a category that needs every differentiator it can get.

Tom Yost

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Re: The Signature Era Part II - Tiger Woods
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2017, 08:59:40 PM »


Randy Thompson

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Re: The Signature Era Part II - Tiger Woods
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2017, 09:09:41 PM »




Old school, where is the sand pro, oh that comes next week!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: The Signature Era Part II - Tiger Woods
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2017, 10:37:23 PM »
There is an argument that Tiger Woods could help you guys (architects) in the same way that he helped PGA purses. RTJ raised the bar for the business of golf course architecture.


If Tom Doak builds a reversible golf course, 1500 people on GCA fall in love. If Tiger Woods builds a Par 56 twelve hole golf course, he changes the game AGAIN.


He has the opportunity to be really productive for the game (rather than business) of golf. I am an optimist by nature :)


Mike:


I'm not such an optimist.


Tiger offered to design the second course at Dismal River for free.  Somehow, I got hired anyway.


I might have gotten hired for that project in Chicago [where Tiger is pictured above] if he hadn't offered to design it for free, too.  I suspect there is some way he'll get a $2 million tax credit in the process, because the former President will vouch for him.


Is that raising the bar?  Tiger can and should be a good designer, but I'm not so sure he'll be good for our business.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2017, 10:39:26 PM by Tom_Doak »

Adam Lawrence

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Re: The Signature Era Part II - Tiger Woods
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2017, 03:08:56 AM »
Has his fee`s come down from 25 million he signed for in the middle east? I understand he has an X Fazio design associate, can they put together teams as strong as Tom, Bill and Gill? Bill and Gill, I like that! Will they be able to do anything decent for under 10 million? You tell me, do you see a big future for 10 plus million golf courses in the enar future?


Here are the courses listed:


http://www.tigerwoods.com/design/courses


Like many things in Dubai, it does not appear that it happened.



They built six holes and I have it on very good authority that they spend AED 1.1 billion (USD 300 million) in doing so. Of which Tiger was paid in excess of USD 70 million.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Mike Sweeney

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Re: The Signature Era Part II - Tiger Woods
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2017, 08:59:05 AM »

Mike:

I might have gotten hired for that project in Chicago [where Tiger is pictured above] if he hadn't offered to design it for free, too.  I suspect there is some way he'll get a $2 million tax credit in the process, because the former President will vouch for him.


Is that raising the bar?  Tiger can and should be a good designer, but I'm not so sure he'll be good for our business.


It would take a ballsy tax lawyer to expect a $2.0 million write off for a design fee when the average fee on a competitive bid would be much lower. Regardless, that is an interesting tidbit. Thanks
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Ronald Montesano

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Re: The Signature Era Part II - Tiger Woods
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2017, 08:38:03 AM »
We've witnessed a recent era of copious new builds, followed by another era of restoration/renovation. Will the next era be the bulldozing of existing (and uninspired?) courses, to build over something new? Strantz followed by Tiger, just to name a diverse pair.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The Signature Era Part II - Tiger Woods
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2017, 08:45:36 AM »

Ronald,


Not sure.  Just as when the golf design/build industry touted a golf course a day, and it proved not to be true, the current marketing (including yours truly) touts how renovations add to the bottom line.  Initially, they do, but just in the last few weeks, I have seen certain facts and/or articles suggesting that the renovations come back down to earth, and it is still possible that you will lose money and have more debt.  If truly a trend, total rebuilds (which I have seen at $8-10M budgets, even for non-signature architects) will become rarer and precision surgery will become more the norm, because folks will realize golf is still a tough biz.


Where possible, the next major design phase might be to design for supplementary income stream, i.e., give up land or use unused land, for real estate, even if in small parcels, to offset debt.  That might result in shorter courses, maybe executive courses, but the Millennials and subsequent generations might not view 7K yards as essential to their golf experience.  And, where possible, the entire thing might be planned with an "exit strategy" from golf altogether into some other land use.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

BCowan

Re: The Signature Era Part II - Tiger Woods
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2017, 04:55:51 PM »

Ronald,


Not sure.  Just as when the golf design/build industry touted a golf course a day, and it proved not to be true, the current marketing (including yours truly) touts how renovations add to the bottom line.  Initially, they do, but just in the last few weeks, I have seen certain facts and/or articles suggesting that the renovations come back down to earth, and it is still possible that you will lose money and have more debt.  If truly a trend, total rebuilds (which I have seen at $8-10M budgets, even for non-signature architects) will become rarer and precision surgery will become more the norm, because folks will realize golf is still a tough biz.


Where possible, the next major design phase might be to design for supplementary income stream, i.e., give up land or use unused land, for real estate, even if in small parcels, to offset debt.  That might result in shorter courses, maybe executive courses, but the Millennials and subsequent generations might not view 7K yards as essential to their golf experience.  And, where possible, the entire thing might be planned with an "exit strategy" from golf altogether into some other land use.


Jeff,


   Are u including clubhouse renovation costs?  Every course in Detroit that has renovated in last 5 years had waiting lists and nice sized downstrokes.  Some have spent substantial amounts on their clubhouse which isn't the core asset of the club.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 09:40:16 PM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

Steve Okula

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Re: The Signature Era Part II - Tiger Woods
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2017, 07:24:56 AM »


If Tom Doak builds a reversible golf course, 1500 people on GCA fall in love. If Tiger Woods builds a Par 56 twelve hole golf course, he changes the game AGAIN.


What would that be? Eight par 5's and four par 4's? Interesting. I would want to go play it.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Signature Era Part II - Tiger Woods
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2017, 08:12:08 AM »

If Tom Doak builds a reversible golf course, 1500 people on GCA fall in love.


I would like to point out that more than 1500 people have fallen in love with The Loop.  Bookings at Forest Dunes for 2017 are triple what they had on the books in advance for 2016.

Anton

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Re: The Signature Era Part II - Tiger Woods
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2017, 08:36:15 AM »


If Tom Doak builds a reversible golf course, 1500 people on GCA fall in love.


I would like to point out that more than 1500 people have fallen in love with The Loop.  Bookings at Forest Dunes for 2017 are triple what they had on the books in advance for 2016.


I am one of those bookings later this year Tom.  I look forward to playing it and the other Tom's course there.  The whole facility looks top shelf. 
“I've spent most of my life golfing - the rest I've just wasted”

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