[Jeff_Lewis]

I guess we need the magazines to come out with a definition for what "design" means. We have always noted the flatness of the greens and Tillinghast's lack of participaton in building them when discussing the Black. Speculation about how much time Tillie spent on this site has always moved between virtually none and none. Yet, unquestionably, the routing bears his stamp. So, what we have hear is not really a revelation about the process by which the Black came to be, but the start of a debate about how we should define terms.

[TEPaul]

Matt:

I really don't think "revisionism" is beginning for the first time over this Bethpage Black situation.

Attempting to determine who did what goes on here all the time--sometime in minute detail--and when it becomes conclusive what happened where I think credit is probably alloted fairly.

But for the moment I certainly will buy into your theory that the "design" of a golf course may start and be primary when the "routing" is done, perfected, and held in place through to completion of the product by an architect or whoever it was that did it! A routing to me really is a "golf walk" as Bill Coore says! It's the basic path golfers will take. Following a routing the concpets and features of the holes fall into place. Someone can do one and not the other although almost always that someone does both. So you couldn't be more right that the routing phase, then the concept and feature design phase flows into the construction phase.

How they (whoever that may be) do it is fascinating too. The great amateur architects that produced some of the best and most famous courses in America took months and sometimes years doing it on a single course. Others, like Ross, apparently had a unique talent of doing a lot of it off of topo maps as well as sometimes limited initial routing site time. Ross also had a well known and very perfected process of instructional devolution to well known associates primarily through detailed drawings and notes and telegrams.

Others, like MacKenzie, who seemed to be extremely fast in what he did may have had other ways or simply was very quick and comprehensive about what he did. Frankly, I'm not buying that theme about MacKenzie completely because he happens to be the architect who partnered far more often and with impressive people than any architect EVER! So that alone could explain a lot although some might not want to admit that now.

Tillinghast may have done the routing of the Black or he may not have. It doesn't appear he spent much time at Bethpage Park, even by his own admission, but he's given credit for routing and designing three courses there.

As I said earlier, (and using your theory about the importance of the routing phase in "design"), it would probably be better to not make assumptions that Tillinghast did the routing(s) and just see what comes out of this mention in Whitten's article that all three courses were "laid out" (routed) months BEFORE Tillinghast was even hired for the Bethpage project!

If documentation comes forward that those courses were "laid out" (routed) before Tillinghast arrived, would you then say the golf course(s) really aren't Tillinghast?

I see no reason to give Tillinghast any more credit than Burbeck, at this point. Facts will probably prove the truth. But the instant notion that if someone is apparently an amateur, like Burbeck (or other than a well know professional architect) that it's unlikely to impossible that he could have done something great. The fact that Burbeck apparently was a landscape architect and an engineer, and may have done some courses previously seems to be overlooked so far!

The notion that simply because one happens to be a so-called "amateur", he's not capable of greatness in architecture is just laughable to me, particularly in the face of the evidence of great courses in America! Pine Valley (Crump), NGLA (MacDonald), Riviera (Thomas), Oakmont (Fownes), Myopia (Leeds), Pebble Beach (Egan, Hunter and Lapham), Wilson (Merion) etc! Some of the top courses in America then and now and every single one of them created by men who were amateur architects or all of them men who never took a fee!!

It makes no difference who did it--whether it was Tillinghast or Burbeck. We all know what Tillinghast could do, but noone apparently knows what Burbeck could do--and if it becomes apprent through the evidence somehow that Burbeck did do the routing, design and construction even to a large degree, he should be comletely recognized for it because it's fascinating and impressive.

If Tillinghast was around so little at Bethpage and nothing can be found of what he left Burbeck, if anything, and even Tillinghast himself said he was a "consultant", then what was Burbeck doing all those years at Bethpage park?

We know that anyone can do a routing. Anyone can create concepts and features and completed courses too but very few can do it really well. And if a man called Joe Burbeck really did those things and his name has been deep in the shadows for 70 years, it should come out and he should be given the credit for it!

[Jeff_Lewis]

The question that GD has raised on this issue is a valid one. But it certainly does not appear that there is enough evidence available to have arrived at a conclusion on this question already. From that perspective, we may be seeing the pressure to create "news" for the US Open issue.

[Dan Kelly]

Tom I --

Amen to every word in your last post.

Every one of them.

All of them. All of the words.

Every last one.

Let Mr. Burbeck get all of the credit he deserves.

(My only interest in this thread has been to argue that, based on the "evidence" they've supplied, Golf Digest and its partner, The New York Times, have made a giant leap to a conclusion. I hope someone -- maybe even Ron Whitten -- will keep looking into this, because there just HAVE to be some documents somewhere that will shed more light on this murky affair ... unless they all went up in that blaze, along with Rosebud. Did you know that was Tillinghast's last word? Just "Rosebud." Or maybe that was Burbeck!  )

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

TE
A lot of 'ifs' there.

I'm not sure I would agree all those gentlemen were 'amateurs'. Some had been at for a while, others had help and still others may have been amateurs when they started but after a decade or so of 'building' a course and they probalby were no longer 'amateurs'.

[TEPaul]

Dan:

Good post on one half of the question here but although you might appear to be persuasive you sure didn't convince me! Concentrating on what Mrs Burbeck did or didn't say about Tillinghast or what Mr Burbeck didn't say and a four year old's recollection of it is a long long way from architectural proof on Bethpage Black to me. Creating doubt in that manner as a valid argument in this situation seems far less valid than creating an argument attempting to establish documentary architectural proof--some of which may be available.

Like you, I'm skeptical of some 1959 Park report too. Reading between the lines of all these things might be interesting but so far does not seem to be much in the way of proof. You say the evidence to support Burbeck is laughably far from proof. The evidence to support Tillinghast seems laughably far from  proof too--or have I missed some apparently conclusive evidence to support Tillinghast.

What Tillinghast has going for him is he's a famous architect from that era, and the fact that for 70 years it's been ASSUMED that Tillinghast was the designer of Bethpage despite the fact that there seems to be even less evidence to support Tillinghast than Burbeck! Why would anyone, without some good evidence simply assume it must have been Tillinghast's design? Because it's a great course? Because he's the well known Albert W.Tillinghast?

Probably easy assumptions to make but also laughably far from architectural proof.

[Dan Kelly]

Tom I --

Are you PURPOSELY misunderstanding me?

Let me say this as succinctly as I know how. Please read it carefully:

I am NOT trying to deny Mr. Burbeck any credit rightfully his.

I am NOT arguing Mr. Tillinghast's case.

I have NO IDEA who deserves credit for what at Bethpage Black (or any other course). Is that clear?

All -- ALL -- I am saying is that Ron Whitten's conclusion (reported with minimal skepticism by GD's partner newspaper) leaps well beyond the evidence in hand.

Let me say it one more time, lest I be misunderstood: I am not trying to convince you that Tillinghast deserves the archie credit at BBlack.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

At this point there's probably no reason to quibble about the exact meaning of the word "amateur architect", particularly with those I cited. The reason I cited them is because they all put a tremendous amount of time into their courses onsite and that's more to the point here in this situation, I think.

I'm certainly not trying to suggest that one Joe Burbeck was the architectural talent of A.W. Tillinghast, although if he did do the Black (and the others) he should be considered for his talent.

Looking at the apparent facts of the "time in" really starts to get down to the probable or even the possible. Tillinghast, by his own account called himself a consultant at Bethpage! Tillinghast was paid $50 for 15 days at Bethpage and it's seems impossible to determine if he spent even remotely that much time there and so many people have always said he spent very little time there--certainly less than that!

Somehow the old adage "you get what you pay for" is beginning to surface here to me. It's not so much the 15 days or less, the extent of which appears completely unknown! It's the $50 that's beginning to sound implausible to me. Maybe Moses was trying to buy some architectural "cache" by using a known architect's name and as clever as Moses was maybe he just forgot to expunge the fact of the $50 fee.

I mean, come on! Sure it might have been the depression but $50 to really design three course much less even remotely one comprehensively? And people believe that Crump paid Colt $10,000 twenty years previous for a week's work?

It really starts to get down to the probable and the possible! He's given credit for designing three courses there. It's always been assumed that included routing, hole concepts and design features and probably the drawings to have those routings, concepts and design features carried out, I suppose? Not bloody likely, in my opinion.

Now Burbeck, on the other hand, appears to have lived on the site and worked on it for three solid years every single day, maybe far longer, just as a few of those other amateur architects did. Somehow they pulled off great designs, so why not Burbeck?

I'm not saying whatever evidence is around at this moment and on this website makes a good conclusive case for either of them--I'm just talking about what's beginning to seem more plausible and more probable to me.

[TEPaul]

Dan, OK, OK, OK, I understand where you're coming from and what you're saying.

I do realize that you're in the business and you've always been very interested in how writers present their case and such, and on this topic it's Ron Whitten's article.

But for me, I couldn't really care less about Ron Whitten's article, what motivates him to write it, what motivates Golf Digest or anything of that nature. All I care about is finding out about who really designed Bethpage Black, Tillinghast or Burbeck.

The evidence is probably out there and whether Whitten interpreted it correctly or not doesn't concern me. I don't really need his opinion, I'd just like to see that evidence and draw my own conclusions!

[GeoffreyC]

This is a most interesting discussion.  I just got home from a trip and I have not read this thread as carefully as I will later on but I've played the Black over 60 times, read what was available from the Tillinghast books and I've studied the aerial in chapter 43 of ROTL.

I've played MANY of Tillinghast's courses and I like to believe I have a feel for his work and its great variety but there is a style to his body of work.  I've speculated here before that I seriously doubted that the greens at Bethpage were done from Tillinghast plans.  I have NO DOUBT that the routing and placement of most of the hazards are Tillinghast's work.  However, careful examination of the 1935 aerial shows unmistakeable differences from the course that I grew to know from 1969 to the present.  I've asked here before if anyone knew why the right fairway bunker on #5 (yes that striking feature of many "signature photos" of the Black is just not there in the aerial.  Also, the excellent fairway bunkering on #6 is absent on the 1935 aerial. There are a few other less striking differences.  It's hard for me to believe that that the aerial was taken before finishing the course and why would those be last work done (the greenside bunkering is all there on those holes).  

Perhaps the finishing work including interpretation of the green contours was the work of Joe Burbeck. Maybe he resented being left to finish up and and took some liberty to add bunkers and wanted some credit.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

TEPaul,

I am also quite skeptical about Tillinghast's involvement, and you make quite a plausible argument about the $50 fee.  I must also candidly say that I am one of Tillie's biggest fans as well as a regular player on The Black.

There is no doubt that the routing has elements which support Tillie's involvement.  #4 does resemble some of his earlier sketches of a premier three-shotter, and #7 & #8 certainly remind many of Pine Valley.

However, no one has ever questioned that Tillinghast was involved on the project - people have only questioned the extent of his involvement.  Therefore, the examples listed above support his involvement, but do not define his role on the project.

Looking at the rest of the course's routing, what architectural elements suggest Tillie?  This analysis might have been easier before Jones' restoration/rennovation but he left almost all of the original design intact.  I may have to break out some photos of Baltusrol (Lower) and Winged Foot (West) tonight and really take a look at them.  It seems to me that those two nearby Open venues (both of which I have played) might be the best comparison for Tillie's involvement on the Black.

On the flip side, what traits suggest Burbeck?  Given Tillie's short time frame (15 days), I would look at the other courses in the complex.  It is quite improbable that Tillie spent much time on The Red or The Blue, but Burbeck certainly did.  #1 Red immediately comes to mind as a hole that would blend right in on The Black.  Finally, people have always referred to The Green as the minny Black course because the two show common design traits.  I doubt a seasoned veteran like Tille would have looked to Emmet's design for inspiration, but an upstart like Burbeck certainly would have.  The Green (formerly Lenox Hills) was well received, and Burbeck could have drwan on elements from that course but built it to a grander and more penal scale.

Finally, lets not underestimate the potential quality of Burbeck's work.  As stated before, there have been a number of architects who lived on the premises and constructed a great course on their maiden voyage.

[Matt_Ward]

TEPaul:

You may not be as familiar with the Black as others (myself included) but I know you are quite aware of PV. Tillie took many of the themes at PV and it appears (to me at least) that some of these elements were actually put into motion at the Black.

Two good examples -- the tremendous fairway bunker at the par-5 7th which replicates in so many ways Hell's Half Acre at PV's #7. You also have a dead ringer for the 14th at PV with the 8th at the Black. Does anyone believe these ideas were hatched from Mr. Burbeck whose total understanding of golf is at best unknown and probably, in my mind, unlikely?

Geoffrey C is quite correct about other Tillie features you see from tee-to-green at the Black (i.e. cross bunkers at #4, to name just one example). The angled greens are also another characteristic of Tillie on so many of the approaches you find at Bethpage.

In the many courses I've ever played I can't for the life of me name a course as demanding as the Black is from tee-to-green and have such mediocre greens (minus a few) as it does.

I believe Burbeck carried on the construction of the course and may have added a few bunkers to the plans he worked from. But a Tillie course would not have such bland greens and the bunkering work would have a more polished flair. Clearly, something is amiss here because someone of Tillie's skills would not have settled for such finished work if he had been on site through completion.

I am not a professional architect but I would like those who are to comment on the fact that if someone had a routing plan could they have taken that plan and carried on? Is it possible that rudimentary greens would be the by-product of someone, who although an engineer, may not have grasped the wherewithal to understand the complex nature that greens must be in the overall end game of any top flight course.

On another point this whole idea of "consultant" needs to be defined because right now you could drive a truck through it. What it means to one person versus that of another is completely different. If someone says Tillie was a consultant on the Black then the "big names" of todays design force are no more than that in so many of their courses today.

[Dan Kelly]

Small correction:

You guys keep talking about a "$50 fee."

Here's the passage from Whitten's article: "As a master showman, Moses knew how to generate news. So he retained A.W. Tillinghast as a consultant to the project. Tillinghast was hired on Dec. 30, 1933, months after the Blue, Red and Black courses had been laid out. His contract paid him $50 a day for a maximum of 15 days."

$50 a day.

I've looked, carefully but in vain, to see how Whitten knows that "the Blue, Red and Black courses had been laid out" months before Tillinghast got involved. That's the key.

Are you out there, Mr. Whitten?

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Apologies for spelling "mini" as "minny" - had a brain freeze there...
 

[Rick Shefchik]

We've generated an awful lot of bytes on this issue, but if Ron Whitten can prove -- or at least source -- his statement that Tillie was hired "months" after the Blue, Red and Black courses were laid out, then we know who did the routing, and we (most of us) can agree whose name deserves to be listed first.

The other question that comes to my mind is why there is no battle over the authorship of the other two courses that Tillie would supposedly have routed had he been hired at the beginning of the Bethpage project. Did Tillie never claim to have worked on those courses as well? Are they lousy courses? Do they bear no discernable evidence of Tillie's hand? Or is the younger Mr. Burbeck simply not interested in restoring credit to his father for designing courses nobody talks about?

[TEPaul]

Rick:

You're right that Whitten's mention of Tillinghast signing on months after the courses had been laid out should be answered. I would sure like to know where he got that--that could tell us a great deal one way or another.

If Tillinghast did a full blown routing it is strange that the greens are so unlike him. A regular routing generally includes green designs. A simple, sometimes preliminary routing, is generally called a "stick routing" as it generally just has lines from where a tee might be to where a green might be.

Perhaps if the course(s) had been routed before Tillinghast got there, then it's likely Tillinghast worked with Burdeck to place features on the routing and create concepts for the holes. That would certainly explain a hole that had the look of Pine Valley's #7 hell's half acre bunker, for instance, as that was one thing that Tillinghast recommended to Crump. If Tillinghast supplied ideas and planning for features it is not much different from some of what Colt did for Crump at Pine Valley, when he spent a week of two there.

[TEPaul]

Dan Kelly:

Thanks for the clarification on Tillinghast's fee from $50 to $50 a day--that makes a big difference--fifteen times the difference to be exact!

[Rick Wolffe]

The preponderance of facts that we have researched -- every newspaper and publication on the matter -- show that the construction of Bethpage did not start until January of 1934 well after Tillinghast was hired to provide design and planning services.

There is no shred of evidence to indicate that the layout of the Red, Blue and Black was completed and finalized before Tillinghast was retained.

The Long Island State Park Commission (Bethpage) has the expense records on what they paid Tillinghast.  I have not seen the records and cannot confirm that he was paid $50 a day for 15 days of work.  However, Bethpage has confirmed that Tillinghast was on the payroll.  

I have no definitive diary that traced Tillie's every waking moment.  His wife, Lillian, probably would have solid grounds to divorce him if one was ever found.  Thus no-one can make any credible claim that Tillie did not spend much time at Bethpage.  And no-one can make any credible statement to how much time Tillie put into his pursuit of the contract to get the job as the so-called "consulting architect."  I am sure many of the Archies on this site can share stories of how much design work they gave away  in order to land a design job.  In any event, even if it is true that Tillie only worked and was paid for 15 days, I can attest that Tillie could have gotton allot of designing done in 15 days time.  From his letters and writings one would conclude that he was a work-aholic. (rather than an alcholic).  As I also posted earlier, from the letters and articles one would easily conclude that Tillie had a very good working relationship with Joe Burdeck.

I am sure that there are some financial whizzes on this site that could also tell us that $50 a day in the midst of the depression was a significant sum with good buying power in the early 1930's.

$50 times 15 days equals $750, which I would guess probably could buy a nice full size luxury sedan back in 1935.  By today's equivalent $45,000 buys a nice luxury sedan.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I agree that if there is evidence that shows that the courses were routed and designed prior to Tillinghast's arival it would seem to close the case. But for some reason the most compelling proof according to Whitten is the official history which doesn't seem that compelling.

Moses did know how to generate news and it always involved himself. It was not his style to hire a name to generate excitement. In fact the previous year he accepted designs for the Jones Beach clubhouses, a number of big name architects were overlooked for the design of nameless engineer's entry. Perhaps that helps Burbeck's claim. But it does not explain why Tillinghast was hired. I looked at this subject a while back and dug up some of my old notes. There were a number of articles in the NY Times involving the development of Bethpage and they all centered on Moses no mention of either Tillinghast or Burbeck.

As far the 15 day job at $50/day. You can not compare fees architects demanded prior to the Depression. Still $750 is nothing to sneeze at, MacKenzie charged $1000 for plans pre-Depression (10% if the total cost or aprox $6000 if he would actually build it). He fee at ANGC started at $10,000, I don't think actually got paid more than $1500-2000 and he travelled cross country a number of times and spent several months on site. $750 sounds about right. I also think the 15 days is misleading, because according to the article he was hired 12/30/33 and was 'laid off' 4/18/35 - did he only work 15 days during that entire time?

Moses was famous for hiring engineers and architects for his labor - 5 out of 6 were out of work. The fact that that he could use both there physical and mental strengths was a factor for the success and relative cheapness of his projects. Golf architects were out of work too and could be had relatively cheap.

There was one article in the NY Times in 1934 and three in 1935. The first in May 1934 anounced the final papers being signed and the completed sale. It also said that one course was 70% completed, the second course was 60% completed and third 30% completed. Whitten's article says the Balck wasn't started until Spring of '35.

The next article was April 19, 1935 - the day after Tillie was laid off. Moses gives a tour of 'the peoples country club' (it almost has a Mao sound to it). The Blue will open a week from Sunday, the Red somewhere before July 1 and the Black - the equal of any championship course - the following year. Its all Moses, no word of Tillinghast or Mr.B.

I can't believe Tillie's lay of was coinsidence. The first course had been completed, the second was nearly completed and third was roughed in only needing some detail work.

May 9, 1935 the Blue an exhibition match on the Blue which was opened in late April. The Red should be ready May 30 & the Black will not be open for another year.

August 10, 1935 clubhouse opened and three courses in use. After speeched by Moses and others, little Joe Burbeck ('son of the park superitendant') opens the door with a giant key. no mention of Tillingahst or who dsigned the courses. Thats all I've got from the NY Times, I don't believe there was any write up of the Black opening in 1936 - at least I never found one.

Other info, The Golf Course Guide written in 1950 said that the courses were designed by Joseph Burbeck with Tillie as a consultant. HB Martin's 50 Years of American Golf (1936) calaimed that Tillinghast was quite proud of his work at Bethpage which included planning and building for the NY State Park Commission.

Also in regards to his supposed disintigration, he was hired by the PGA in 1936 for a two month stint to remodel member courses - the project was so successful that the two months turned into two years.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

The idea that the courses were routed prior to Tillinghast may have come from the article of 4/34 that RW provided a link to. In the article it says: "During 1933 much of the preliminary work on the second golf course was completed by the use of work relief labor supplied through the Work Relief Bureaus of Nassau and Suffolk Counties. The construction program as a Civil Works Administration project is now in full swing and the work is being rapidly progressed." The first course being Lenox Hill. I think you might reasonably conclude that the Blue was routed prior to Tillinghast, although even that is not certain. This article, which coinsides with an article in the NY Times, gives one the impression that work was progressing very quickly. The article also sets the estimated time of completion of the entire project at April 1934, which is when Tillinghast was 'laid off.'

By the way the wording in the book of 1950 'the Golf course Guide' is oddly similar to the strange wording used in the Bethpage history. Based on what I know, I would not replace Tillinghast's name from Bethpage Black with Berbeck. There is not enough information to elevate him to designer. There is much stronger case to be made that Tillinghast is responsible, after all they didn't hire him for nothing.

[Phil_the_Author]

There are a few Very important points that need to be stated that have been overlooked and might help to prove that not just the Black, but the Blue & the Red are all true Tillinghast courses.

In the May 25, 1935 issue of the Farmingdale Post it states "The first of the new 18-hole courses in Bethpage... will be open... on Sunday, April 28. This course will be known as the "Blue Course""

Further down the article gives a short description of every hole. When it gets to "Hole 5-300 Yards-This is the famous "REEF" hole."

This is most important! The book "The Course BEautiful" reprints Tillinghast's December 1926 article from the American Golfer titled "The Reef Hole". In the last paragraph he writes, "I named the type "The Reef" because of the..."

This hole type was a distinct Tillinghast design and for hole #5 on the Blue to bear that name as title would signify his design involvement on the FIRST of these three new courses! If the course had "already been routed" as some have already stated on this thread it would never have been given this designation that people in the world of golf at that time would recognize as pure Tillinghast.

There are many comments in this thread about the greens being of a low standard or not up to Tillinghast's quality as if they were lacking in severety. This is also not the case. Tillinghast believed in Penal design, not UNFAIR design. It was because the Black is so very difficult from tee to green that these greens have less undulations in them than some other courses. Imagine what this course would be like to play if these greens were like Augusta's. It would be unplayable.

Also, there is a great chapter in the book "Golf for the People: Bethpage and the Black" (coming out next week of which I am the author) that comprises an interview with Rees Jones talking about the Bethpage project. In it he speaks of the effects of not having a Greens Commitee or commitees of any kind since this is a public course and how that affected the contours and sizings of the greens and bunkers over the years. One of the main things that he did was to bring them back to the way Tillinghast designed them! That is why people will be shocked to see how difficult they play during the Open.

Finally, how many out here play the Black from the true Championship Tees? Imagine the carries and views of the course as it must have been almost 70 years ago when the trees were young or not there and the game was played with the EQUIPMENT OF THE DAY! That is why Tillinghast called the course a "Man KIller" and it remains so to this day.  

[TEPaul]

This dilemma can probably be answered quite easily if the documentation and evidence can ever be found that determines what "laid out" means--if in fact that does mean the Black was routed when it mentions "laid out" and if that did or did not precede Tillinghast's involvement.

Of course if it did precede his involvement and that routing that preceded his involvment was what Bethpage Black is today then it's obvious Burbeck probably did something very fundamental architecturally for which he has never been given credit.

But I think it should be understood that it's highly likely that if Burbeck did route The Black and that routing was what it is that Tillinghast may have had much to do with the developing of both the concepts and the design features on that routing.

That seems to be the way it went with all courses of that era, or maybe any era. First the raw routing is set and the next phase is to develop the hole concepts by working the architectural features, fairway and green angles, bunker features etc and whatnot into the routing.

But identifying the progression of holes and the landforms that are best to begin to "work-up" and "work-in" the best concepts and features is a primary one and can be called the "bones" of the golf course (the routing).

If that's what did happen it would explain a lot. It would necessarily lend credence to Burbeck and might also explain Tillinghast not inconsequential involvement.

It would also say something quite interesting if Burbeck did route the Black. It might say he certainly did a good job of it and obviously in Tillinghast's mind as well. Within whatever space or other limitations that may have existed then it is sort of logical to assume that if Tillinghast did not do the routing but only developed the holes and their concepts and features that he must have liked the routing Burbeck did or he probably would have attempted to change it or alter it for best overall effect!

If this is what happened it should probably be presented today as sn interesting architectural collaboration between Burbeck and Tillinghast.

But if Tillinghast did route the course himself, he should be given total design attribution and then Burbeck would be given credit for constructing that design only!

What exactly "laid out" months before Tillinghast's involvment means, is absolutely key to this entire question, in my opinion!

[Jamie_Duffner]

Phil,

Some very interesting points.  Funny though, the 5th on the Blue is not a very interesting hole, at least how it stands today.  The 4th and 6th are wonderful holes, particularly the 6th, what a brute.

Another fine point about the greens.  I am a staunch defender of the greens on the Black.  They will never be mistaken for ANGC or Oakland Hills greens, but I am firm believer that at least two-thirds of the greens will really surprise the long time players of the Black during US Open week.  I too recall some of Tillie's references to the greens at the Black as being somewhat benign due to the severity of the tee to green game, particularly back in 1936.  Didn't Sam Snead walk off the course in disgust?

There seems to be at the very least a preponderence of historical newspaper reports that Whitten blatantly failed to reference.  I hope that gets rectified.  

Redanman - I too saw the golf channel piece.  I thought each person got to say very little.  I thought Burbeck was rather unconvincing.  He can only provide "recollections" of his father sweating over blueprints and working on the course.  Living near the 14th green doesn't count!  

[BCrosby]

Phil_the_Author writes:

"In the May 25, 1935 issue of the Farmingdale Post it states "The first of the new 18-hole courses in Bethpage... will be open... on Sunday, April 28. This course will be known as the "Blue Course""

Further down the article gives a short description of every hole. When it gets to "Hole 5-300 Yards-This is the famous "REEF" hole.""

Seems to me the above passage locks up the case for Tillinghast as the designer of Bethpage.

The Reef Hole design was unique to Tillie.  It was not a type of hole commonly designed by other architects.  Like, say, Redan holes.  Even the use of the word "Reef" in the context of golf course architecture is unique to Tillie.  

Case closed.  Judgment for Tillinghast.

Bob

[TEPaul]

Bob Crosby:

Now that's fascinating about the "Reef Hole"! I just don't know Bethpage Black and I've been wondering where Tillinghast actually did a "Reef Hole". He mentioned Newport but don't know that either.

The "Reef hole" appears to me (Tillinghast's drawing of it anyway) to be one of the coolest concepts I've ever seen for a really long par 3.

So if Bethpage has a real tillinghast Reef hole that says a lot. Good work!

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