[Kyle Harris]

Music programs, both school and private
Boy Scouting and Girl Scouting
Key Club and other volunteer organizations
Extra-curricular sports programs

I didn't know the Boy Scouts payed YOU to be a member?!?

No, but they provide a program that benefits someone well into their adult years by providing an organization to develop leadership and organizational skills under the scrutiny of successful professional.

You don't really get a chance to lead a group carrying a bag down a fairway for 4 hours.

I didn't know about 6th grade boy scouts are leading successful professionals through woods on their important weekend camping trips.

Then you really aren't paying attention.

[Tom Walsh]

I think I know what Mike means when he says--
"I think Kyle is on target. I have a 13 year old and we just mapped out his summer yesterday.

I had a great time being a cart kid and a caddy as a kid, but I WOULD trade places with my son. That kid's summers are awesome!"

And I'm sure that every minute is not mapped out, and I know times have changed. I have three children of my own and we struggled a little to send them to sleepaway camps and sports camps, it's a good thing.

But the idea that my mother or father would map out my summer would never have occurred to them, they were interested of course, but I can vividly remember my mother saying--"You want money? Go to the caddy school with the rest of the fellas"  I was 12.

That being said the subject is the demise of caddy programs and perhaps I grew up in a particular time and place (w Bill Shamleffer and his brothers). I offer no solutions, and I'm not the member of a club, but kids need more job opportunities, not fewer. More's the pity.

[Tom Walsh]

Hey almost forgot- Way OT

go football Cardinals!

[Jeff Goldman]

Kyle,

Are you from the midwest?  Do you think that every school child has the opportunities you list?  While caddie programs are surely more rare than they used to be, I suggest you log on to the WGA site and review the Evan's Scholar's Program.

Quick story:  My first year at the club, I had a caddy who I figured was one of the older ones (I never knew anything about caddies until I joined).  I asked him where he lived -- Chicago Heights (NOT the high rent district).  I asked where he was in school -- High School Senior.  I asked if he had applied for an Evan's Scholarship, and he said "the US Military Academy doesn't take Evans Scholars."  Apparently someone did ok being a caddy, as do the 800 or so Evan's scholars who at any one time are being put through college by the WGA.  Thats 800 who in college EVERY YEAR, most of whom likely would not be without the WGA, and not including the caddy at West Point.

Oh, and each year we get somewhere between 300 and 500 applicants from Junior High and High School for our program.  Beverly probably gets the same (Jack?), and I don't know what the other Chicago clubs do, but the numbers add up.  They meet successful folks, learn job skills and interpersonal skills, can progress to leadership positions, etc. etc. and earn more than a few buck.  Or they could just hang out.

Jeff Goldman

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

Are you from the midwest?  Do you think that every school child has the opportunities you list?  While caddie programs are surely more rare than they used to be, I suggest you log on to the WGA site and review the Evan's Scholar's Program.

Quick story:  My first year at the club, I had a caddy who I figured was one of the older ones (I never knew anything about caddies until I joined).  I asked him where he lived -- Chicago Heights (NOT the high rent district).  I asked where he was in school -- High School Senior.  I asked if he had applied for an Evan's Scholarship, and he said "the US Military Academy doesn't take Evans Scholars."  Apparently someone did ok being a caddy, as do the 800 or so Evan's scholars who at any one time are being put through college by the WGA.  Thats 800 who in college EVERY YEAR, most of whom likely would not be without the WGA, and not including the caddy at West Point.

Oh, and each year we get somewhere between 300 and 500 applicants from Junior High and High School for our program.  Beverly probably gets the same (Jack?), and I don't know what the other Chicago clubs do, but the numbers add up.  They meet successful folks, learn job skills and interpersonal skills, can progress to leadership positions, etc. etc. and earn more than a few buck.  Or they could just hang out.

Jeff Goldman

Jeff,

Evans Scholars are few and far between in the grand scheme of things. How many caddies actually get the scholarship as a percentage of participation? How does that compare to other similar programs? What is the success rate of those scholars once in school? What opportunity costs are associated with successfully earning the scholarship?

It is one thing to put to how much money is dolled out as a result... but how well is that money being put to use? How does it compete with other similar opportunities?

I am certainly not arguing that caddying is a useless endeavour, but to lament the fact that caddy programs are floundering in the United States comes across as self-serving, self-delusion to the actual contributions country clubs and caddy programs make.

[Tom Dunne]

Kyle,

I've primarily been talking about teenage caddies, not adults. Their priorities are different. When it comes to teenagers, I don't think your last question is really applicable. Obviously you need a group of committed kids at the core of the program. But I don't think this is something that can be demanded of all teenagers, and this is a group that basically self-selects. It depends on the facility, of course, but at some clubs I think it's good to have an "outer circle" of irregulars as well.

Some of these kids may not even be golfers themselves and will need to be taught practically everything. But someone's gotta take the Haverkamps at three in the afternoon, and I don't see anything wrong with that. These kids may get less out of the experience than the "A" caddies, but down the line they're still more likely to become golfers than the kid flipping burgers all summer.

I'm only speaking from my own (outdated) experience, but I guess what I'm saying is it takes all kinds. Looking back, I'm grateful that I was given the opportunity to essentially learn the game, its rules and its etiquette basically from nothing. I do not come from a "golfing family", so it was my first exposure to the sport, and the customs do take some learning. I'm sure guys like you and Pat Craig were infinitely better caddies than I was, but that's beside the point. My hope would be that there can still be a place in the yard for a kid to learn a few things who isn't coming to the job with a wealth of prior experience. After all, if the goal isn't to become a Tour caddie, the value of an activity like caddying is abstract, and it means different things to different people. I was half a dozen years removed from it before I realized how much I'd learned.  

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

I've primarily been talking about teenage caddies, not adults. Their priorities are different. When it comes to teenagers, I don't think your last question is really applicable. Obviously you need a group of committed kids at the core of the program. But I don't think this is something that can be demanded of all teenagers, and this is a group that basically self-selects. It depends on the facility, of course, but at some clubs I think it's good to have an "outer circle" of irregulars as well.

Some of these kids may not even be golfers themselves and will need to be taught practically everything. But someone's gotta take the Haverkamps at three in the afternoon, and I don't see anything wrong with that. These kids may get less out of the experience than the "A" caddies, but down the line they're still more likely to become golfers than the kid flipping burgers all summer.

I'm only speaking from my own (outdated) experience, but I guess what I'm saying is it takes all kinds. Looking back, I'm grateful that I was given the opportunity to essentially learn the game, its rules and its etiquette basically from nothing. I do not come from a "golfing family", so it was my first exposure to the sport, and the customs do take some learning. I'm sure guys like you and Pat Craig were infinitely better caddies than I was, but that's beside the point. My hope would be that there can still be a place in the yard for a kid to learn a few things who isn't coming to the job with a wealth of prior experience. After all, if the goal isn't to become a Tour caddie, the value of an activity like caddying is abstract, and it means different things to different people. I was half a dozen years removed from it before I realized how much I'd learned.  

The problem is the kid flipping hamburgers is guaranteed his 20 hours a week/$7.50 an hour. The kid showing the Havercamps around isn't guaranteed that loop. As a parent, who would you rather depend on to teach your child the responsibilities that come with a full-time job? A company that can set a schedule weeks in advance and give your child a defined set of hours? Or one that depends largely on people's willingness to participate in a recreation activity?

Looking back, I feel like I would have learned more elsewhere and it took me awhile to adapt to a full time job when I was 18-19 years old, as a result. I won't say I regret caddying, but I definitely could have done better with my time.

[Jeff Goldman]

Kyle,

I'm not lamenting anything.  Are there 5000 or more summer jobs in the midwest for school kids flipping burgers?

Oh, and for the success of the program, ask some of the scholars.  They live in Evans houses at school, must work while there, and get booted if they don't keep their grades up.  The most important elements in getting a scholarship are:  Grades, financial need, grades, financial need, finanical need and, most important, grades and financial need, and recommendations from the club they caddies at.

Jack?

Jeff

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

I'm not lamenting anything.  Are there 5000 or more summer jobs in the midwest for school kids flipping burgers?

Jeff

I am certain of it, at least there are 5000 or more steady income jobs for school kids in the summer.

Caddy programs serve a very specific portion of that workforce - those with an interest in golf or who enjoy that line of work. The WGA is to be commended for offering the Evans Scholarship to those in that portion, but to say that caddying is a better alternative... just isn't right. 

[Tom Dunne]

Kyle,

Everyone's different, of course, but I would counter by saying that the people-skills learned on the course provide greater dividends than learning how to grind out a full-time job at an early age. After all, you've got your entire adult life to master that one...  

Plus, I can definitely say that my experience proved to be "aspirational"--it helped motivate me to learn how to make a living in the hope of someday having the opportunity that those members had, to chill out on a Saturday afternoon and play 18 with your buddies. There is nothing aspirational about working a fryer.

[PCCraig]

Kyle,

Are you from the midwest?  Do you think that every school child has the opportunities you list?  While caddie programs are surely more rare than they used to be, I suggest you log on to the WGA site and review the Evan's Scholar's Program.

Quick story:  My first year at the club, I had a caddy who I figured was one of the older ones (I never knew anything about caddies until I joined).  I asked him where he lived -- Chicago Heights (NOT the high rent district).  I asked where he was in school -- High School Senior.  I asked if he had applied for an Evan's Scholarship, and he said "the US Military Academy doesn't take Evans Scholars."  Apparently someone did ok being a caddy, as do the 800 or so Evan's scholars who at any one time are being put through college by the WGA.  Thats 800 who in college EVERY YEAR, most of whom likely would not be without the WGA, and not including the caddy at West Point.

Oh, and each year we get somewhere between 300 and 500 applicants from Junior High and High School for our program.  Beverly probably gets the same (Jack?), and I don't know what the other Chicago clubs do, but the numbers add up.  They meet successful folks, learn job skills and interpersonal skills, can progress to leadership positions, etc. etc. and earn more than a few buck.  Or they could just hang out.

Jeff Goldman

Jeff,

Evans Scholars are few and far between in the grand scheme of things. How many caddies actually get the scholarship as a percentage of participation? How does that compare to other similar programs? What is the success rate of those scholars once in school? What opportunity costs are associated with successfully earning the scholarship?

It is one thing to put to how much money is dolled out as a result... but how well is that money being put to use? How does it compete with other similar opportunities?

Jeff-

You, along with Jack, make some good points regarding the WGA.

Kyle-

How many students do the boy scouts of america send to college on scholarship every year?

[Chuck Brown]

Dies anyone know if The First Tee (the kids' golf program that seems to get all the attention and funding) has any sort of position on caddying?  Do they actively encourage it?  Do they actively promote it at clubs and other golf courses?  Do they have any passing familiarity with the concept?

As far as the pleasure of taking a caddy (and of being a caddy), I am well acquainted.  I'd do it any time that I had a chance to.  There are others like me; this thread attests to that.  There are others for whom taking a caddy isn't merely an unwanted expense; to them, golf means riding in a cart.  Nothing more and nothing less.  I understand that.

What I think the game of golf in America loses, as it loses more and more caddy programs, is that a very large portion of the most avid golfers now are graduates of caddy programs.  Through caddying, golfers learn etiquette, and golf traditions and important principles (pace of play, rules behavior) gets passed on.  Without a caddying experience more and more golfers learn golf through two particularly destructive pathways:  One is corporate outings, where beer-fueld "cartball" is the order of the day.  The other is from watching PGA Tour golf on television, where every putt is studied from five angles.

[Chuck Brown]

For anyone who challenged the "success" rate of Evans Scholars recipients, I am somewhat familiar with the two programs at Michigan and at Michigan State.

I don't have any current numbers; the last ones I saw from the 1980's, when I was in law school, showed that the Evans Scholars had some of the most gaudy, ridiculous success-in-graduating-and-in-empolyment rates of any demographic in the two universities.  The Evans Scholars were always graduating on time, with great GPA's.

I'd be the first to admit that an Evans Scholarship is very, very tough to earn when you are at a club with 100 other kids applying.  There is a need factor, which is very carefully observed.  (I am also familiar with other private club programs that award their own caddy scholarships apart from the Evans Scholars.  In my neighborhood, Oakland Hills does it, and last I heard Birmingham CC does it too.)

[Sean_A]

I think I know what Mike means when he says--
"I think Kyle is on target. I have a 13 year old and we just mapped out his summer yesterday.

I had a great time being a cart kid and a caddy as a kid, but I WOULD trade places with my son. That kid's summers are awesome!"

And I'm sure that every minute is not mapped out, and I know times have changed. I have three children of my own and we struggled a little to send them to sleepaway camps and sports camps, it's a good thing.

But the idea that my mother or father would map out my summer would never have occurred to them, they were interested of course, but I can vividly remember my mother saying--"You want money? Go to the caddy school with the rest of the fellas"  I was 12.

That being said the subject is the demise of caddy programs and perhaps I grew up in a particular time and place (w Bill Shamleffer and his brothers). I offer no solutions, and I'm not the member of a club, but kids need more job opportunities, not fewer. More's the pity.

Thats most of the problem.  Most parents don't make their kids work for cash anymore so kids have very little incentive to work.  Additionally, paying a kid even $32 (and this would seem to be a very cheap looper) a loop is serious money so far as I am concerned, but I know for certain that even as a keen golfer, there is no way on God's green earth that I would pay that much per game at my own club - it just seems daft to me.  I know that for many club members in the States it isn't so much because they are used to paying this sort of money, but even though I could afford it, I wouldn't so it.  Third, what folks said about carts is obviously a huge negative for caddies.  However, one must remember that even if carts were taken out of the picture, I think that folks would get used to their own trolleys.  Either way caddies aren't gonna make out.  Finally, I only rarely take caddies, but what I have seen doesn't impress me.  Being asked to pay $50-$75 for some of the jokers I have had is an insult.  I can't recall a single caddie which impressed me enough to think it was money well spent, but then I am not interested in being spoon fed info and I do realize that I am in a serious majority, but I want to figure things out for myself.  So to answer the question, no caddying cannot be rejuvinated.

As a disclaimer, I grew up in a caddie atmosphere, but never once caddied myself.  I made my money doing paper rounds, coaching baseball, reffing hockey and as a baseball umpire.  Between this and doing sports myself, there was no time for caddying.

Ciao

[Kyle Harris]

Pat,

And how many Evans Scholars have walked on the moon or became President? The Boy Scouts do not exist to give out scholarships, but to provide a program by which young men can actively participate in a program designed to prepare them for the rigors of life.

This isn't about the ability of the program to pay for a child's college, but by what the required time given to the program provides for the child. The Evans Scholarship provides some, but its impact isn't nearly as likely to improve a child's standing in life as other comparative programs.

How many people seek to caddy at a WGA club for the purpose of getting an Evans Scholarship? Is this an economically feasible goal?

Chuck,

So you're saying that caddying is basically self-serving for golf?

[Tom Walsh]

Sheesh- how did this devolve to a evans scholar vs. boy scouts debate?

[Cliff Hamm]

The problem is the kid flipping hamburgers is guaranteed his 20 hours a week/$7.50 an hour. The kid showing the Havercamps around isn't guaranteed that loop. As a parent, who would you rather depend on to teach your child the responsibilities that come with a full-time job? A company that can set a schedule weeks in advance and give your child a defined set of hours? Or one that depends largely on people's willingness to participate in a recreation activity?

Looking back, I feel like I would have learned more elsewhere and it took me awhile to adapt to a full time job when I was 18-19 years old, as a result. I won't say I regret caddying, but I definitely could have done better with my time.

That is exactly a main part of the problem with caddying.  Clubs need to guarantee that a caddy gets out and that there is not so much down time.  Do away with the independent contractor concept?  Need to schedule a caddy a day in advance?  Whatever...it needs to be a guaranteed source of income.  You could then pay somewhere between $30 and $40 for a single caddy.

[Kyle Harris]

Sheesh- how did this devolve to a evans scholar vs. boy scouts debate?

Tom,

Because one of the underlying causes of the inability for a club to restock the caddy ranks is this country has increased its ability to educate its teenagers in other areas. Caddy programs just can't compete with other high school jobs and youth programs.

[Tom Walsh]

Sheesh- how did this devolve to a evans scholar vs. boy scouts debate?

Tom,

Because one of the underlying causes of the inability for a club to restock the caddy ranks is this country has increased its ability to educate its teenagers in other areas. Caddy programs just can't compete with other high school jobs and youth programs.

It may be one of the causes, but isn't the rise of the cart more hurtful than competition from extra curriculars? We're talking about jobs, and certainly not (for most) paths to evan's scholarships.

[Sam Maryland]

I've caddied a lot over the years and have an appreciation for it, but like a lot of others have said I think caddies have gotten too expensive. 

in this area (NY metropolitan) a lot of clubs have mandatory walking with a caddy policies, that would be a deal breaker for me if I were looking to join a club.  $75-100k to join + $1000 month dues/minimums/other and then I have to come out of pocket with $75+ every time I tee it up?  these clubs have certain times where you can take a cart or carry, but certainly not during prime time.  the argument is always "the caddies won't show up if we don't do it this way"...whatever happened to good old supply and demand?  I prefer to walk and carry my own bag. 

Sleepy Hollow has an excellent caddy program, but it's mandatory to use one and they are expensive (I will say hands down the best caddy I ever had was a guy at Sleepy).  Westchester CC puts lots of caddies out regularly, but on avergage they lousy.  Quaker is somewhere in between.  pretty much all the caddies at these clubs are grown men...therein lies the problem.

CC of Darien is the one club where I've seen a concerted effort to get junior high and high school kids out on a regular basis.  a lot of them are learning on the fly but that's just fine and they only charge $35 all-in.  at Bethpage the guys out front ask for $75+tip.  once I said "damn guys, rates like that you should be over at Deepdale"...got a kick out of it when he said "oh we can't get that at Deepdale"!

but to answer the question, the Evans program is unique and trying to replicate it would be almost impossible I think.  and given the current economic backdrop I think that state of caddy 'industry' is only going to get worse.  these guys are going to have to find another way to scratch out a living.

[Chuck Brown]

Pat,

And how many Evans Scholars have walked on the moon or became President? The Boy Scouts do not exist to give out scholarships, but to provide a program by which young men can actively participate in a program designed to prepare them for the rigors of life.

This isn't about the ability of the program to pay for a child's college, but by what the required time given to the program provides for the child. The Evans Scholarship provides some, but its impact isn't nearly as likely to improve a child's standing in life as other comparative programs.

How many people seek to caddy at a WGA club for the purpose of getting an Evans Scholarship? Is this an economically feasible goal?

Chuck,

So you're saying that caddying is basically self-serving for golf?

Kyle, I am definitely saying that as a golfer, I have an interest in the future of caddying, well beyond whether or not I walk or ride or carry my own clubs or not.
I am definitely saying that there is a cultural aspect to caddying.
For all of the reasons I suggested.

So that is what I am saying.  What are you saying?

[Michael Powers]

I agree that the only clubs with truly successful caddy programs are those that prohibit the use of carts for the able bodied golfer (TCC, Essex, Myopia, Boston Golf Club, Old Sandwich near Boston).  While some clubs do ok by requiring members to take a caddy (even if they ride), generally this policy is frowned upon buy riders because they get wacked for both the cart fee and the 4-caddy fee.  Unfortunately the revenue produced by cart fees is something that most clubs are just unwilling to let go of, especially in this economy.  A club doing 15,000 rounds with the majority of rounds riding can expect to clear well over 100K after all expenses (including labor).  I know my club just cannot survive without this revenue.

[Kyle Harris]

I am saying that caddying does more for golf than it does for the caddies and this country, as a whole, has provided more opportunities for young men and women to improve themselves and their status in life.

As a 14 year old with no interest in golf, I'd have no interest in caddying. Even as a 14 year old golfer, I think the appeal of caddying is limited to a select few situations. Used to be one could play Mondays, now that only happens if the club doesn't have outings.

Also, I had more opportunities to expose myself to drugs and other less-than-ideal activities in the caddy yard than anywhere else, and I caddied at a very high end caddy program and club in Philadelphia.

[Tom Walsh]

As a 14 year old with no interest in golf, I'd have no interest in caddying. Even as a 14 year old golfer, I think the appeal of caddying is limited to a select few situations. Used to be one could play Mondays, now that only happens if the club doesn't have outings.

Also, I had more opportunities to expose myself to drugs and other less-than-ideal activities in the caddy yard than anywhere else, and I caddied at a very high end caddy program and club in Philadelphia.

Kyle- I think most caddies do it for the money.

We snuck cigs and played cards, picked on the younger caddies, cussed, admired the pretty ladies, wished we could play more, bitched about our loops, but

drugs?

[Bill Shamleffer]

As a 14 year old with no interest in golf, I'd have no interest in caddying. Even as a 14 year old golfer, I think the appeal of caddying is limited to a select few situations. Used to be one could play Mondays, now that only happens if the club doesn't have outings.

Also, I had more opportunities to expose myself to drugs and other less-than-ideal activities in the caddy yard than anywhere else, and I caddied at a very high end caddy program and club in Philadelphia.

Kyle- I think most caddies do it for the money.

We snuck cigs and played cards, picked on the younger caddies, cussed, admired the pretty ladies, wished we could play more, bitched about our loops, but

drugs?

Tom and I caddied at the same club, although at different times.  I too was not exposed to any drugs through the caddie yard.  I caddied from 1977 through 1992.  I knew of some guys who caddied who used marijuana, but none of this activity occurred in the caddie yard.  In addition, most of the caddies came from just a few grade schools and high schools in the area, so we were not exposed to anyone we would not already have contact with through school or other activities in the area.  But the caddie yard allowed us to spend time with the guys in between loops.

And like Tom said, we gambled (for quarters to a couple dollars tops), some smoked, we cussed, we told bad jokes, and we talked about females (I will not explain this any further  ).

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