[Sean_A]

I'm getting really frustrated here and need help from above.....TEP  ...Cirba >>>Doak >>>>sullivan ....Shivas....Naccarato ....

Of course caddies will typically be at private clubs ...although there are publics that have them...do I hear Pebble Beach ?

For Sean to say whether I think people will pay for them is irrelevant is pretty bold, even if I have been accused of having a room temperature IQ on occasion...for what it's worth this is a discussion group last time I looked.....and the crux of this discussion, the yin and the yang, unfortunately revolves around the economic realities of the equation.

I think Tom asked us    Can American caddying be rejuvenuted??


I've made multiple points on what to do, and done some  extrapolation on on golf's future to some extent in analysing his query.....that being said my vitae as to caddying and the motivatons of kids is pretty extensive, and might  merit a modicum of  courtesy and consideration

ciao   archie

 

C'mon Archie - you are getting a bit carried away.  I think it is quite clear that I am not calling you whatever it is you claim I am calling you.  I never once said your opinion is irrelevant.  I said it is irrelevant if you think folks can afford to pay for a caddie if they  in fact won't pay.  I am not at all sure why you are getting frustrated.  I gave very clear reasons why I don't think caddying will ever become a significant feature for the vast majority of folks who play golf.  That doesn't mean that caddies don't have a place in the game, only that that place is largely insignificant.   Therefore, as I stated earlier, I don't think caddying will ever be rejuvenated - if indeed it was ever juvenated (presumably a word - no?) in the first place.  

Jeez, just because I disagree with you somewhat doesn't mean I am insulting you - does it?

In any case, if it wasn't very clear, let me make it clear now.  I in no way intended to discount your opinion or insult you.  As it would seem you believe I have, I humbly apologize. 

Ciao

[Brent Hutto]

Archie,

Please define "rejuvenated" in concrete terms. Do you want twice as many caddies working in the future as did last summer? Ten times as many?

Even ten times as many as currently working would not falsify Sean's assertion that the vast majority of golfers have no interest in paying or using caddies. Heck, there could be 100 times as many rounds caddied next year and that would still be what, maybe 1-2% of rounds played.

In these discussions, it would be useful to qualify the question up front to specify that for purposes of discussion we're only supposed to take into account a few thousand members of elite private clubs. It would save people like Sean and myself from needing to chime in. I thought the original question had to do with making caddies a mainstream part of the golf experience.

[archie_struthers]

 

yo Sean

  ..."whether or not you believe folks have the money for caddies is  largely irrelevant "

that's the quote I responded to, as the answer to the question as posed by TEP is almost solely based on economic acceptance of a caddies value, if you made a typo...of course forgiveness is yours for the asking


now , as to Brent's query, knowing Tom Paul , and without being a sycophant, he surely knows what is going on in golf at many levels.
I'm assuming he sees it as a lost art , on the brink of extinction in many areas where it previously flourished , as I do.

As stated , caddying might grow and not retract going forward, but I see it linked to the demise of the club professional as mentor along with the need to deliver the service for less. 

[JMEvensky]

As stated , caddying might grow and not retract going forward, but I see it linked to the demise of the club professional as mentor along withthe need to deliver the service for less. 

Man,is that well stated.

[Sam Maryland]

A friend who's on the golf team with me at W&L runs a little caddy service that is used by a few clubs in and around Louisville, KY, where he lives.  Maybe a model like this could get caddying back on track:

http://gottacaddie.com/

let us know if he gets a franchise going in the NY metropolitan area!

what does an Evans caddy get for a loop?

==============================

just took a look at their web page to see if rates were posted, they are not.  but what an INCREDIBLE program, I had no idea how comprehensive it is.  they maintain "Evans Houses" at 14 universities!

fyi, 13 yrs of age is the minimum.

[C. Squier]

I don't consider public (non-resort) courses to be a center for growing caddy ranks.  It's definitely up to resort and private golf courses to lead the way.

That being said, the majority of private club members have joined their clubs for reasons other than the cheapest way to play golf.  That being the case, I can't ever see how the argument can boil down to "I don't see a dollar for dollar value in employing a caddie".  I mean, you've already made the conscious decision to join a club and pay MORE for golf than non-private golfers. 

However, if you were going to try growing the ranks in public golf I'd suggest pricing the caddy into the round.  Golf is simple, but how many times have you walked into a pro shop to find a menu of options 20 lines long?  It's like the a la carte menu at the fanciest French restaurant you know...and just as hard to understand.  Give me one price for 18 holes and include a cart OR caddy for the same price.  What you're really doing is inflating the cart fee, but you'll eliminate the price difference between the two and undoubtedly attract those who want to walk.  Don't make me feel like I have to dig deeper into my pocket.  Make it an equal option.

[Sam Maryland]

I don't consider public (non-resort) courses to be a center for growing caddy ranks.  It's definitely up to resort and private golf courses to lead the way.

That being said, the majority of private club members have joined their clubs for reasons other than the cheapest way to play golf.  That being the case, I can't ever see how the argument can boil down to "I don't see a dollar for dollar value in employing a caddie".  I mean, you've already made the conscious decision to join a club and pay MORE for golf than non-private golfers. 

However, if you were going to try growing the ranks in public golf I'd suggest pricing the caddy into the round.  Golf is simple, but how many times have you walked into a pro shop to find a menu of options 20 lines long?  It's like the a la carte menu at the fanciest French restaurant you know...and just as hard to understand.  Give me one price for 18 holes and include a cart OR caddy for the same price.  What you're really doing is inflating the cart fee, but you'll eliminate the price difference between the two and undoubtedly attract those who want to walk.  Don't make me feel like I have to dig deeper into my pocket.  Make it an equal option.

Pound Ridge prob has room for that without even changing the rate!

But your argument for you "already made the conscious decision to join a club and pay MORE for golf" is utter nonsense.  Unless that is the club in question already has the mandatory caddy policy, and then it's not a surprise.  Frankly, for me a big attraction to joining a private club is not having to pay a green fee every time you tee it up...replace that with a caddy fee (which is more than green fees a lot of places) and the attraction pretty much disappears.

We pay $55 to play Bethpage Black on a weekend - so you are suggesting it should just be jacked up to $155 and be done with it? 

There would be a riot... 

[Mike Hendren]

What Barney calls cheap I call sensible.  I was raised to believe that one should not pay another for a job he can do himself.  That explains why I was patching and sanding drywall yesterday to save a few hundred bucks and why if given the option I would eschew a caddy.  But that's just me.  I think it is commendable that clubs make the effort to maintain caddy programs.

$0.02, worth less,

Bogey

[C. Squier]

Pound Ridge prob has room for that without even changing the rate!

But your argument for you "already made the conscious decision to join a club and pay MORE for golf" is utter nonsense.  Unless that is the club in question already has the mandatory caddy policy, and then it's not a surprise.  Frankly, for me a big attraction to joining a private club is not having to pay a green fee every time you tee it up...replace that with a caddy fee (which is more than green fees a lot of places) and the attraction pretty much disappears.

We pay $55 to play Bethpage Black on a weekend - so you are suggesting it should just be jacked up to $155 and be done with it? 

There would be a riot... 

And how many times would you have to pay that $55 greens fee to break even on monthly dues at a comparable club?  I won't even include initiation fees. 

Like I said, not many join private clubs because the golf is cheaper. 

[Sam Maryland]

Pound Ridge prob has room for that without even changing the rate!

But your argument for you "already made the conscious decision to join a club and pay MORE for golf" is utter nonsense.  Unless that is the club in question already has the mandatory caddy policy, and then it's not a surprise.  Frankly, for me a big attraction to joining a private club is not having to pay a green fee every time you tee it up...replace that with a caddy fee (which is more than green fees a lot of places) and the attraction pretty much disappears.

We pay $55 to play Bethpage Black on a weekend - so you are suggesting it should just be jacked up to $155 and be done with it? 

There would be a riot... 

And how many times would you have to pay that $55 greens fee to break even on monthly dues at a comparable club?  I won't even include initiation fees. 

Like I said, not many join private clubs because the golf is cheaper. 

but a private club is not all about the golf.  in most cases there's there's the dining, pool, tennis, etc...

...so just solving for cost per round isn't an accurate assessment. 

I'm willing to pay something for all of that but you hit me for $100k intiation, $1000/month in dues/incidentals, and then you're not going to give me the option of carrying my own bag?  aah, probably not happening.

in my opinion the "norms" are getting ready to go out the window at most clubs in this country.  I have a buddy at work who is a legacy member of Garden City and he tells me that 35 years ago his Dad got in when the club hit such dire financial straits that they went around to some people they thought would make good members and let them in for free as long as theywould start paying dues.

a lot of memberships are going to face that same decision soon -- namely, do we just bite the bullet and start admitting people at a discount (or for free) with the assumption they'll help close the monthly financing gap?  or do we shoulder the load personally and/or start adding to the debt level hoping for better times?

what would you do?

I suspect caddies are way down the list of priorities... (unfortunately)

JMO

[TEPaul]

ARCHIIE STRUTHERS:

I admire you big guy! I just scanned the last page or so and you're out there on this thread defending what you really believe in! I know some of the posts and people you've been responding to are disheartening to you---it's not hard to tell, believe me. Are they wrong and are you right? Archie, I guess it just ain't that simple; matter of fact I know it isn't. All I can offer in that vein, for now, is the same old song I've offered on here so many times before-----eg "Golf is a great big thing and there really is room in it for everyone." At least theoretically

I have a lot more to say on this subject, old pal, but I'm out on the road right now and frankly I don't know how to work this laptop for shit, so I'll just have to wait to deliver the Full Monty until thursday when I get home to the barn/office on the old farm that has the BIG PC and supporting firepower and which some have probably appropriately labeled "The Golf Architectural Central War Room."

Hang in there, my friend----onward and upward!

[archie_struthers]

 


Hey TEP thanks for the empathy! Looking forward to you chiming in upon you r return. I am really struggling with this topic, in that the answer is all about the money and not at all about the money at the same time. 

I can think of all the caddies I've met and worked with, who worked for me (more with me if you know what I mean), and have analysed the  issue from a pragmatic and emothional  point of view.

It's disheartening to see that so many guys don't get it,  particularly on a site where golf is revered for things like "lines of charm ".

I count myself blessed  because they obviously  haven't had the fantastic experiences I've had interacting with both caddies and the old time golf pros, many of whom seem like mythical figures to me in this age of managers, bean counters and focus groups  (lol) 

I just can't imagine golf without   Broadway  Joe ,  Cool Breeze,  Ace,  Parker,  Wags,    and guys like Petro ,  and even the infamous Rocky Carbone , my old pal who has yet to read a putt right but sure can tell a joke.   As stated I have been blessed to meet them all.


The game will prevail,  it's just too good not too.  In that the  caddy has been integral to the game as far back as recorded history exists , their survival  might surprise even the most unfeeling reprobate. 

[JESII]

I saw Rocky read one right...probably just one...

#16 and the hole was deep and right up on that broad spine that runs straight away from about 2/3's deep. Hole was actually a couple feet right of the pinnacle and Rocky and Richie Minimum were standing on the right apron about even with the hole.

Rocky's guy asks which way it'll break and his response was "you see where we're standing? which way do you think it's gonna break?"

At the time Rocky weighed in at abot 275 and Richie was 3 and a quarter easy...





About the direction of the thread, I think it's important to suggest that Tom was likely not intending to find a way to grow the use of caddies beyond where they may have once been, just to make sure they don't go away for good...after all, cart revenues have played into the front end business plan of a great number of the projects completed in the last 30 or 40 years...projects that may not have been completed without that revenue source.

[archie_struthers]

 

Hey Jimbo , you had the perfect loopers , you could hit hit it right between their  respective  weights

As to TEP's query , that's how I took the question, how do we keep loopers from going the  way of the American Indian , sent to a few private reservations like Seminole , Pine Valley and the like.

Even many venerable Philly clubs that you have knowledge of are hurting  big time, and if cart revenues appear to be a solution, you can be sure walking bans are not far behind. People are really against paying for golf at this point in time, and $50-70 a round extra doesn't cut it....hence my plan for $5-7 a round  for forecaddies, which is a bargain if the kid just hustles and finds the ball.  Before long he or she will get better.

Despite the protestations , this could fly!

[JESII]

I think those two could've tilted the earth off its axis with one coordinated step...

I'm with you...to me, it's the fact that kids haven't "needed" the cash for one reason or another and that will likely change going forward.

[C. Squier]

hence my plan for $5-7 a round  for forecaddies, which is a bargain if the kid just hustles and finds the ball. 

Despite the protestations , this could fly!

Archie, love the plan....just want to know where you're going to find a breathing human willing to work ~4 hours for $20-$28. 

[archie_struthers]

 


Clint ....you'd have to read my previous posts , how many twelve to fourteen year olds do you know walking around with money in their pockets these days?

I just asked one of my "moms" sitting here in the office if any of their kids could use a job making  $ 150-200  a week and she begged me to sign them up.  Also,  caddying mignht might be a prerequisite for getting
on the bag drop, getting some cheap playing privledges , etc etc.

There is always more money than the flat fee  !

[John Burzynski]

hence my plan for $5-7 a round  for forecaddies, which is a bargain if the kid just hustles and finds the ball. 

Despite the protestations , this could fly!

Archie, love the plan....just want to know where you're going to find a breathing human willing to work ~4 hours for $20-$28. 

I think he's a kid from a middle class family, age 13 -15, who has been watching Tiger Woods on TV his whole life and thinks golf is cool.   He really can't get another job because there is no such think as the paper route (1) because Mexicans in SUVs have taken that job over and (2) newspapers are dying.  Babysitting is for sissies.  And mowing lawns has also been taken over by guys with giant 4 foot wide mowers...

But if he can make $25-30 bucks maybe 3-4 days a week in the summer running around a golf course soaking in the game and if he can get some other perks like twilight golf with his dad every once in a while and maybe the ability to hit balls at the range when it's dead, that kid definitely exists. 

$20 a lawn X 6 lawns a week =$120 tax free CONSISTENT work per week, April through September.  For 12 hours work, max., the take comes out to about $10 an hour.   I charge them $1 per lawn cut, as they use the gas and my mower, just as a lesson that in any business you have costs associated with the business, I take the money and put it in their savings accounts. 

Both of my sons have done it every summer for years from age 13 through 15 or 16 (until they get jobs at stores, etc. and are old enough to be legally hired), they could take on a couple more lawns a week if they wanted to, also.    Probably a lot less work than caddying, it is more consistent work than most caddying (lawns need mowing EVERY WEEK here in the summer, without fail),  and they essentially run their own business.

Not a downer on caddying at all, but there are lots of other 'odd job' alternatives to caddying that are consistent work for kids that age.   No lawn service in existence mows a standard city sized lot for $20 a pop.   $50 maybe, not $20.

[John Burzynski]

John, I've got nothing against mowing lawns and I wish more kids would take the initiative and do it around the neighborhood.  At $20, you're right...it clearly beats the lawn service alternative.  I'd bet you see a decent increase in that this summer, as people bag their lawn service, convince themselves they'll cut their own lawn and save a few bucks, and then get lazy and let a kid do it...

But caddying is different.  It's got to be the most pleasant, easy job on earth...I don't even consider it work...

I am just questioning how CONSISTENT the work is in most places, how many actual loops (actual real paying loops, not conjecture based on a possible x number of loops x $ a loop, ACTUAL LOOOPS A WEEK on average) a kid gets each day / week at most courses. I am willing to bet at most private courses there is little or no demand for caddys during the week, unless some event is being held at the course, and unless you count Saturday and Sunday mornings the work is probably limited at best.  And then you have to account for rainy days, etc. 

I just don't see caddying in America ever growing or becoming anywhere near a consistent job alternative for most kids, maybe a side diversion that earns them some spending money on an irregular basis, but not consistent daily/weekly money like I am sure it was maybe 20 years or more ago.

[Cabell Ackerly]

Even if you could find kids willing to carry a bag for $25-30 per round, most people are still going to take a cart if it’s available – even at private clubs. Most people just don’t want to walk anymore (with or without their bag), and they want somewhere to keep their drinks and other paraphernalia.

When caddies thrived, it was only because people didn’t want to carry their own bags and carts didn’t exist as an alternative.

Archie keeps pushing forecaddies, but that’s an entirely different service in my opinion, and an entirely different type of relationship as well. Forecaddies typically have very little personal interaction with the golfers because the requirements of their job spread them so thin.

On the bright side, caddies like the ones Archie mentioned (“Broadway  Joe ,  Cool Breeze,  Ace,  Parker,  Wags, and guys like Petro ,  and even the infamous Rocky Carbone”) aren’t going anywhere. As long as there are clubs that prohibit carts for healthy golfers, looper like these guys will always be in demand.

[archie_struthers]

 


Cabell.....from the age of 11-17 I must have gone around Woodcrest CC a thousand times , 90% of the time as a forecaddy.....most of the members there in the late 60's and early seventies didn't want to walk, no one carried there own bag   ... this isn't that unique a concept, hence my frustration
I respectfully diasgree with your point regarding the relationship , as a good caddy / smart kid gets to know the players intimately .  Every once in a while I see a Woodcrest member somewhere and invariably we spend a half hour talking about the "good old days" and all the characters that played there.

There were about five other  "kids' that got good loops, a bunch of part time loopers who showed up on weekends and for tournaments  and two or three older guys that showed up when their guys were playing   ... 

But , as I have said, there was also first Frank Clark and then Tim Debaufre, who as golf professionals were absolutely fantastic.  They took the time to meet us , teach us , yelll at us or praise us depending on the day.   These guys supported the system, having grown up hanging arouund a golf course just like us. 

At 16 Tim asked me to help run the range and gave me  a key to the ball machine....which he probably did knowing I would sneak back after hours and hit balls....or was it so he could get the range picked for free ?

As to comparing cutting lawns and forecaddying , and having done both  , it's not even a question which is more fun or lucrative IMHO  and I'm not even thinking of al the other perks

[C. Squier]

Clint ....you'd have to read my previous posts , how many twelve to fourteen year olds do you know walking around with money in their pockets these days?

I just asked one of my "moms" sitting here in the office if any of their kids could use a job making  $ 150-200  a week and she begged me to sign them up.  Also,  caddying mignht might be a prerequisite for getting
on the bag drop, getting some cheap playing privledges , etc etc.

There is always more money than the flat fee  !

Archie, I ask this not to question your integrity (from past posts, I have evidence that you have plenty of that), but simply in the spirit of friendly debate:

How do you justify employing a person, no matter how young/old, rich/poor for less than minimum wage?  Future career benefits and cast off used clubs aren't considered income by the IRS. 

Yes, many here have pontificated about the intangible benefits of caddying that don't show up in greenbacks.  But to be fair, they are all grown up men who are successful enough to be discussing golf course architecture in their free time.....obviously not a statistically relevant portion of all ex-caddies. 

[archie_struthers]

 



The IRS has never been too interested in the paayroll taxes or computing minimum wage requirements for caddies...I'm sure the guys from Chi-town have much greater insight into this issue than I ....but tipped positions don' t   require the same pay ...eg waiter waitresses  valet parkers etc etc.


as for my personal experience as a youth , I'm quite sure we didn't complain or ask for minimum wage we were glad to make more htan our paper routes had paid

[JESII]

Archie,

I was just asked about a caddy at PV that has an individual poem for each hole (or is it each shot) and whips out the crumpled papers on occassion to read to, and hopefully inspire, his players...any stories?

[C. Squier]

The IRS has never been too interested in the paayroll taxes or computing minimum wage requirements for caddies...I'm sure the guys from Chi-town have much greater insight into this issue than I ....but tipped positions don' t   require the same pay ...eg waiter waitresses  valet parkers etc etc.


as for my personal experience as a youth , I'm quite sure we didn't complain or ask for minimum wage we were glad to make more htan our paper routes had paid

Right, because those tipped positions have a reasonable expectation that with tips, they'll make at least minimum wage!  Oh well, next time you're in Chicago I'll makes sure you get a great caddy 

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